A suggestion that suggestions should have feedback

[z4ys]

3 minutes ago, victor said:

And that's exactly the very point. Think about the fact that Game labs have sold 130.000 copies of the game for about 40 bucks each

What was promised for the 40 bucks is actually fulfilled since a very long time. They already deliever more so why we should feel upset? I am glad that they still work on the game.

[victor]

18 minutes ago, z4ys said:

What was promised for the 40 bucks is actually fulfilled since a very long time. They already deliever more so why we should feel upset? I am glad that they still work on the game.

yes yes ... of course. So basically you agree about the fact that this is a complete game? 

So why Devs themselves tell it's still beta?

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by victor

[Jean Ribault]

Not sure why the OP was jumped on so harshly for this suggestion, especially by a moderator?  It's not about a CR, but the theme of it is pretty much what the developers just asked about earlier today....

"Captains.

As we come closer to the release we need to add additional ways we gather feedback from the community.
One of the tools some MMOs use Community representatives who are elected by the community and have direct line to devs.  (referred there after as CR)...."

 

(sorry, but I can't figure out how to properly quote from a different thread)

They're asking how communication can improve between players and developers, and here the OP is criticized for saying we have a forum, we've communicated, and we'd like a conversation on it.  I think it's a very reasonable request.  The "like" system does simulate the community to some degree.  Just my two cents, but maybe it's irrelevant if I'm not a yes-man with 4000+ hours.

[vazco]

3 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

are those ideas going anywhere, that's the question

 

3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Absolutely !

I'd say most of the game is built on community fueled ideas 

It's true that people don't get recognition even if their ideas go into the game, even less if they give a good idea which for some reasons is not implemented. I feel like many ideas I gave are in the game, however I never got a confirmation from Devs. It's completely ok for me, however it's a lost chance to motivate people and build a strong community. 

I guess it could be a role of community representatives to get and give some feedback here. 

[z4ys]

8 minutes ago, vazco said:

 

It's true that people don't get recognition even if their ideas go into the game, even less if they give a good idea which for some reasons is not implemented. I feel like many ideas I gave are in the game, however I never got a confirmation from Devs. It's completely ok for me, however it's a lost chance to motivate people and build a strong community. 

I guess it could be a role of community representatives to get and give some feedback here. 

Its double-edged sword to honor people for their suggestions. There might be the ones that stay clam and feel honored and then we have the people that start to act like jerks. I agree suggestions are something for a CR to bring forward to the devs. Currently its done by mods. Will we start to call it biased because CR or mods will not mention all suggestions to devs?

Edited May 1, 2018 by z4ys

[Dibbler (Retired)]

 Not all suggestons will be good for direction the Devs want to go of course, but maybe a post in sugggestions section from time to time to say thanks for the input so far would be enough i think Just to show that you guys look there (which of course you must do).

 As for overall game i think for size of the team they do really well tbh, even if sometimes i scratch my head or take a few weeks off :).

[vazco]

53 minutes ago, z4ys said:

I agree suggestions are something for a CR to bring forward to the devs. Currently its done by mods. Will we start to call it biased because CR or mods will not mention all suggestions to devs?

In case CR's are chosen partly by a vote, it's easy - you don't like that CR is not listening to you, don't vote for him the next time. 

If CR's are giving feedback and not devs directly, it's also one level of separation from Devs, which should avoid issues of people who feel to empowered just because one of their suggestions was good and implemented. 

 

There's also one point - communities are usually awful at giving suggestions for new features. They know very well what hurts them and what they need more or less on an abstract level, but in order to get there someone with experience and broader knowledge needs to analyze all goals and corner cases and find an actual fitting solution. That's why most suggestions shouldn't get to development, but as many as possible should be analyzed to let devs understand issues and needs. 

[vazco]

Btw - once you start discussung a solution before understanding the problem fully, all kinds of egoism kick in. People start defending their own ideas because they are theirs. Some also are aggressive because they feel their issue was not understood or they were not heard, and that is often the case. It's the basics of NVC communication.

With many suggestions given here the first post already kills the suggestion as a good source of knowledge, as problem is not explained and people start to argue in a second post, taking positions that they will defend till banned/killed/their internet bill gets unpaid. Implementing any such idea will result in a kickback from some part of the community. 

You can't teach the whole community how to handle a process of defining solutions It  should be work of devs. Still, you can give recognition for a good feedback that highlights issues and potentially shows new goals. 

 

[Hethwill]

2 hours ago, vazco said:

 

It's true that people don't get recognition even if their ideas go into the game, even less if they give a good idea which for some reasons is not implemented. I feel like many ideas I gave are in the game, however I never got a confirmation from Devs. It's completely ok for me, however it's a lost chance to motivate people and build a strong community. 

I guess it could be a role of community representatives to get and give some feedback here. 

One thing is to design a game, and I mean not programming but put down all the rulebook, mechanic, game pieces, interactive resolution etc.

The cool part is that Open World itself is community suggestion

Other is to feed in suggestions as the design comes along and we are all excellent at that in our own way and the way we perceive this age of sail game.

As you say, we all see bits of our discussions in the naval action world. 

[Fenris]

Well, not necessarily a feedback..I would turn possible answers and quotes off in suggestions. So if you like it, like it, if you dont, leave it to developers.

[Slim McSauce]

9 hours ago, vazco said:

It's true that people don't get recognition even if their ideas go into the game, even less if they give a good idea which for some reasons is not implemented. I feel like many ideas I gave are in the game, however I never got a confirmation from Devs. It's completely ok for me, however it's a lost chance to motivate people and build a strong community. 

I guess it could be a role of community representatives to get and give some feedback here. 

You don't need recognition, seeing something you've suggested be implemented is good enough feeling, better if it turns out well for the game. It's just frustrating when you have what you think is just as good, maybe even better of an idea and it gets no recognition like why? If both are seemingly good ideas with tons of support why is one suggestion implemented and one doesn't get a response.

It took a lot to get chain where it is today and I'm not the only one who's suggested it be limited but that was around 5 months ago. It was a different game back then and maybe we weren't ready to immediately make the switch but then again maybe we were? Game development will always lag behind our ideas but the lag for small things, miniscule things take WAAY too long. How much have we've been asking for limited repairs paired with limited chain? I think we all agree limited chain=limited repairs, it's just a must for the best gameplay. Yet here we are still waiting for something so small and inevitable.

Which bring me back to the point of why dev response for not ALL ideas, but ones that are no doubt good for the game, and can be implemented within the next few patch cycles and doesn't need any mass re-writes of code. Development falls behind suggestions, viable suggestions should be marked as such so we know where the devs stand on certain things and when we can stop suggesting something  because either it's already on the list or it's been denied. 

A gmod server I use to play alot had a system where suggestions were made, if they drummed up enough support a staff would @ a mod/developer and be placed "on hold" where it would be looked at the devs and either be "accepted" or "denied" with a dev response of why or why not.  Everyone stays on the same page, it works very well, I'll provide some screenies of what it looks like and you can see how it works,

The header of the suggestion section of the forum laid out so you can see the various responses and what suggestions are on the list to be added. Scroll down and you get the regular forum are sorted by newest posts and topics

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Gregory Rainsborough]

I'm guessing that my suggestion that suggestions get feedback will get no feedback....

[admin]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:31 PM, Gregory Rainsborough said:

A suggestion that suggestions should have feedback.

Often people make suggestions and nothing is said by the team. Why was it (not) a good idea etc? That way we can get on the same wavelength.

 

Its a goal of the community to accentuate good feedback, rework it, improve it and move it up so it gets noticed..
If you feel that your suggestion is getting lost this means community did not notice it. If community thinks that something is a good idea it will come up again and again and will eventually get on the development plan.

Sometimes community misses something and it happens - but we wont, we provide the link to such post below - we will act upon the suggestion even if community completely missed it. If it is proper.

Community can miss or will ignore your feedback for multiple reasons

1. Your suggestion is not clear, cluttered, not formatted well, or just uses bad language. If your post is hard to read or hard to understand it will not be noticed by the community. 
2. Your suggestion is all over the place or partially off topic
   1. For example you start talking about chainshot and end up with lighthouses.
      1. In this case community does not know what to talk about and start adding new things into the subject NOT ONLY making the topic about chainshot impossible to read BUT ALSO losing the suggestion on lighthouses. 
         1.  Lighthouses should be a separate topic talking ONLY about lighthouses
3. Your suggestion does not have TAGS: for example - Chainshot feedback
   1. It is impossible to search for feedback without tags.
      1. if you post is not properly tagged : It will be hard to find 
      2. If your post is tagged it will come up in search when devs decide to search for chainshot feedback.
      3. ps. we need to tag ourselves too if we ask about something.
4. Your post is a shitpost or a shit sandwich (your post can be bad even without you knowing it).
   1. Remember the law of manure increase in the universe (if you add 1 gram of manure to 1kg of honey you get 1.01 kg of manure.
   2. Manure turns EVERYTHING into manure and your good suggestion will be lost.
      1. Example of the shit sandwich
         1. Good idea
         2. Shitpost 
         3. Good idea
         4. Or vice versa
      2. Shit sandwich can be spread in time. Community is a two way street. Your angry posts can affect how community will read your good proposals.
5. Self destruction. Somewhat related to the previous point (4).
   • You start the post with the weird sentence like "I know developers ignore all proposals on the forum, but here is the great idea". This immediately devalues your idea because you just programmed the community to ignore it. 
   • Another style of this post is : This is probably a stupid idea, but…. If author writes it is a stupid idea then it is probably a stupid idea and wont be read. 
6. Not engaging the community and not building on previous feedback.
   • Post will be much better if it builds on previous feedback - links it or links multiple posts with summaries building on them and improving them.
   • This will also engage authors of those suggestions and the community hivemind will create something amazing.
7. Do not have visual information (post becomes 100% better with visuals)

 

Example of feedback that just came to mind (we acted upon them)

@Poyraz Turning acceleration - implemented last december (despite only 8 votes and lack of proper discussion). Tagged and easy to find, read and understand. 

Tagged/Good Structure/Visually supported.   It was always coming up in search when we search for "turning acceleration, turn"

@rediii

Post on the proposal on the loading screens. (will be acted upon and will be added to loading screens and PDF guide (of course redrawn and improved but based on Redii's proposal)

Structured - simple - visually supported. 

There are a lot of posts like this we either follow them or come back to them when we need to. Protractor on the map was based on such post (visual, simple, not cluttered and on a single topic)

It's up you YOU if you want your feedback to be noticed and acknowledged and maybe acted upon. If you want it to be noticed - make it noticeable. Engage the community by incorporating previous suggestions on this subject (tags will make it easier). Maybe even creating mega threads with links collections and such, becoming so to speak a feature owner who knows everything about it (an expert). 
Best acknowledgment of feedback is when you see your idea added to the game.
 

 

 

[victor]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

It's up you YOU if you want your feedback to be noticed and acknowledged and maybe acted upon. If you want it to be noticed - make it noticeable.

 

As usual. You are right we are wrong.

 

 

[Capt Jubal Early]

Just now, victor said:

As usual. You are right we are wrong.

 

 

Its true though isn't it?

Lots of people get way to passionate about this and let emotions run wild. (myself included sometimes) That just leads to shit posting and arguments.

[victor]

1 minute ago, Capt Jubal Early said:

Its true though isn't it?

Lots of people get way to passionate about this and let emotions run wild. (myself included sometimes) That just leads to shit posting and arguments.

It's not true.

Since Game labs is the developer of the game, also the game design (and not only the algorithm definition/implementation and the encoding) it's up to Game Labs.

This means that it's up to Game Labs taking a potentially good game idea and develop into an actual game content.

What it seems from the last post of the admin is that he wants that players make (an important part of) the game design work instead of the developer.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by victor

[Havelock]

This thread is the perfect example why a lot of players cant deal with open development. Admin just produced a timeinvesting and helpful post on the subject (even his own post is a perfect example, it follows all the rules!) and victor replies with one line: "As usual. You are right we are wrong."

I hope that the devs learned their most important lesson and will not bring NA2 to Early Access, but instead develop it on their own or only let dedicated testers in.

[Capt Jubal Early]

Let me rephrase. Its true its our reasonability to provide constructive feedback and promote support for suggestions. From a design point of view I understand the importance of implemented popular suggestions VIA the tagging system and the Admin is right that we should present it better. 

The problem is a lot of the time those "popular" decisions are marred by the fact the majority of NA players aren't represented on the forums and the louder voices with more constructive use of the English language swamp the forums with there one sided opinions. The 30 or say top "pvp" names that float around here shouldn't have a controlling influence over the development of the game but they do just because they all think alike. Those names make up less than 10% of the active online players.

The community representatives is a really important step to bringing the continued successful development into a better line. These guys should be able to collect opinion from the unheard player base that avoid the forums.  

[victor]

5 minutes ago, Havelock said:

This thread is the perfect example why a lot of players cant deal with open development. Admin just produced a timeinvesting and helpful post on the subject (even his own post is a perfect example, it follows all the rules!) and victor replies with one line: "As usual. You are right we are wrong."

I hope that the devs learned their most important lesson and will not bring NA2 to Early Access, but instead develop it on their own or only let dedicated testers in.

I - as some other players - have put in this thread a list of possible new game contents and suggestions, just to hear that they are likely to be ignored just because I should have made the game design work instead of the developers, and you come here (whithout providing any suggestion, but) complaining about my disappointment?

Nice one ... indeed.

And BTW - as far as you last sentence is concerned - open your eyes: they decided put the game in early access on steam to fund the development, otherwise there would be no beta phase at all.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by victor

[Nelsons Barrel]

12 minutes ago, Havelock said:

This thread is the perfect example why a lot of players cant deal with open development. Admin just produced a timeinvesting and helpful post on the subject (even his own post is a perfect example, it follows all the rules!) and victor replies with one line: "As usual. You are right we are wrong."

I hope that the devs learned their most important lesson and will not bring NA2 to Early Access, but instead develop it on their own or only let dedicated testers in.

I agree and disagree. The problem of this 'open development' in this case is that its just partly open. We don't know what will come in the next patch for real, we hear the most times just ideas that COULD be in the next patch but are most of the times are just not thinked through yet. At the same time the big goal for what Naval Action should become as finale product has changed a few times what made a big part of the community rage quit at one of the goalchanges. Just remember, at the EA-release naval action was not tagged as 'Hardcore' then the big hardcore patch came in and we had a decline in players by half within a few weeks.

But yeah, you will always face haters but at the same time you will also hear real critics that you as a dev should listen to eventhough it may be phrased harsh. You cant just build a good game with a bunch of 'yes'-sayers.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Nelsons Barrel

[Hethwill]

When we ask for a reason we must be ready to accept an answer and not get disgruntled by it.

Don't go nuts because the answer wasn't what we expected huh...

A simple suggestion layout is

- suggestion idea

- pros of the idea for all / for part / for a niche

- cons of the idea for a niche / for part / for all

As simple as that will be quite useful.

[victor]

Just now, Hethwill said:

When we ask for a reason we must be ready to accept an answer and not get disgruntled by it.

Don't go nuts because the answer wasn't what we expected huh...

I don't take any answer as a good answer if I have no reasons for doing it. And I explained quite clearly the reasons why the answer of the devs - for me - was not a good answer.

Edited May 3, 2018 by victor

[Liq]

43 minutes ago, admin said:

It's up you YOU if you want your feedback to be noticed and acknowledged and maybe acted upon. If you want it to be noticed - make it noticeable. Engage the community by incorporating previous suggestions on this subject (tags will make it easier). Maybe even creating mega threads with links collections and such, becoming so to speak a feature owner who knows everything about it (an expert). 
Best acknowledgment of feedback is when you see your idea added to the game.

What about this thread where 93% of a total of 72 voters agreed that patrol zones RoE need adjustment to make them less of a gank fest? The thread has been up for over a month now and no response.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Liq

[Capt Jubal Early]

2 minutes ago, Liq said:

What about this thread where 93% of a total of 72 voters agreed that patrol zones RoE need adjustment to make them less of a gank fest? The thread has been up for over a month now and no response.

 

Do all threads require a admin answer?

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Capt Jubal Early said:

Do all threads require a admin answer?

Not all but if its obvious that something is broken (93% of 72 players voted for a change), id say yes.