Marines more than basic useless the way they are

[Skippy]

Ahoy!

 

Id like the marines be changed again.  Why is that?  The way they are now make them useless when higher than basic or commun, because they take away crews.  So a basic is using 10% of your crew, then basic 20% (already a huge deal), then 30%..... up to 50% for Exceptional  o.O... seriously.  Who want a 30 or 40 or even a 50% of their crew as marines when you have a ship of the line???  Just having a fine marines on my Pavel give me 240, its a huge amount off the crew

 

 

Marines should be reworked.  In that time warships had marines and they were also able to have their full crew in the same time, so this not make any sens the way they are right now. More over, they take already 1 upgrade slots, so why making them that way? They should give less marines and not in % but in numbers... because if you put an hammok, well your crew is higher, so the numbers of marines, so it doesnt fix the issue.

 

Make marines just give a certain number of marines and dont take crew

Edited April 22, 2016 by Skippy

[manuva85]

I want to have 50% of my crew as marines...

[Anolytic]

If you have any exceptional marines you don't want. Meet me at any freeport and I will gladly take them off your hands.

[Skippy]

dont you think the way they are its a problem?

should they change them?

 

 

And why boarding party make canon slower? it take an upgrade spot already, should just give positive bonus

[Bulwyf]

I agree the present way Marines work is silly and has certainly convinced me not to use them. Marines since they don't do anything other than boarding effectively make you undercrew your ship which is a huge negative factor. The reality was that marines helped man the guns and still do to this day in all navies. So they weren't a hindrence to loading the guns at all.

[Quineloe]

yeah well, you're wrong

 

[Fastidius]

i agree to some extent that marines should be a set amount ..ie  50/10/150/200/250...but they should also stop you from having anything in the hold if that is the case.

 

having said that tho i do not mind losing 50% of my crew to marines if my job is to capture ships and not sink them....

[Bramborough]

Nothing wrong with Marines the way they are.  The different quality levels offer a range of capability to suit a player's intended target and battle plan.  It's not a simple "Gold always better than Green" choice, as it is with other upgrades.

 

I would agree that sailing around with Exceptional Marines all the time (regardless of mission, expected opponent, and a tactical plan optimized for such configuration) is probably a bad idea.

[Sir Robert Calder]

Marines work wonderfully as they are now.

 

Nearly every rank of Marines is useful. Very hard to get that kind of balance with most upgrades!

[Mr. Starbuck]

Marines are so brutal to use in boarding actions htey have to come with some down-side as well.

 

You just can get an allround-build with high grade marines. Ships containing this module in high quality are really only meant to quickly go into boarding action.

[victor]

Marines are so brutal to use in boarding actions htey have to come with some down-side as well.

 

You just can get an allround-build with high grade marines. Ships containing this module in high quality are really only meant to quickly go into boarding action.

 

And they are VERY effective in doing it.

[Hethwill]

Yes... they are....very very much.... yessssss. 

 

[maturin]

So use the basic module...

 

People shouldn't be so brainwashed by what the game artificially defines as 'exceptional.'

[Slamz]

The only thing odd about marines is that they're the only upgrade in the game where higher rank is not necessarily better.

 

Not sure if more upgrades should be like this or if Marines need to get in line. I agree that it's odd to have one outlier like this.

 

That said, Extra Hammocks makes it easier to use higher ranks of marines without penalty. The marine penalty can often be ignored, too, unless you need to fire out both broadsides repeatedly or end up with less than half your required gunnery crew. Not sure everyone realizes that having a gunnery crew of "250/500" actually means you can reload one side of your ship at full speed and more crew won't help (unless you fire the other broadside).

[Pagan Pete]

I LOVE the marines, just the way that are!   

-3

[Skippy]

Yes Marines are great for boarding, I didnt say they are not good for that. But Bulwyf explained well the problem. Marines make you undercrew your ship which is a huge negative factor. The reality was that marines helped man the guns. So they weren't a hindrence to loading the guns at all. All warship of that time were loading with marines most of the time and they were helping to shoot guns, extinguish fire, boarding, shooting from the top of the mast with sharpshooter.... but they were not making such penalties to the handling of ships. Ships where perfectly operationnals with them on board.  So my point is that: They should rebalance marines and take off crew penalties they give, making them more accurate historicaly. They already use 1 spot of your upgrade, the penalties should be a % of your numbers of marines only, something like that... or completely something else.

 

 

Same for boarding parties, its silly. Why guns shoot slowerr with them? Its not making sense at all. You just have men ready to board and specialise in this. when you make a preparation anyway it take off men already from your crew for boarding or defending.. so having this penalty for Boarding party and Marines is like having a double or even a triple (thinking about 1 upgrade spot used) penalties.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Skippy

[Quineloe]

The only thing odd about marines is that they're the only upgrade in the game where higher rank is not necessarily better.

 

Not sure if more upgrades should be like this or if Marines need to get in line. I agree that it's odd to have one outlier like this.

 

That said, Extra Hammocks makes it easier to use higher ranks of marines without penalty. The marine penalty can often be ignored, too, unless you need to fire out both broadsides repeatedly or end up with less than half your required gunnery crew. Not sure everyone realizes that having a gunnery crew of "250/500" actually means you can reload one side of your ship at full speed and more crew won't help (unless you fire the other broadside).

 

Extra Planking?

[Bulwyf]

Marines as they are presently implemented might help you win boarding actions, no argument there, it is however an extremely gamy and unrealistic feature which bears zero resemblance to anything other than when warships were used to transport  infantry rather than marines (the French did this is a great deal to reinforce America). They did this by the simple expedient of removing 80% of their cannons. Even that did not affect there crew numbers. It did however make them extremely vulnerable and several ships were lost in this fashion. They most certainly did not seek out ship to ship actions.

 

Historically ships could be made slightly heavier in infantry (not marines) and many crew could be trained with muskets, witness the Bucenture at Trafalgar which embarked numerous infantry to compensate for poor gunnery. This still did not weaken there normal crew complement.

 

Gamy features like this should be removed.

[Quineloe]

Exhibit B:

199 crew Surprise boarding 435 crew Constitution - this is a PVP boarding

Boarding mods on the Surprise: 40% Marines only. Boarding mods on the Constitution unknown, but the ship was exceptional.

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Quineloe

[maturin]

Quinneloe, can you post a screenshot of a boarding action where the defender was not trying to commit suicide and lose as quickly as possible?

 

That list of orders is stupendously terrible. He would have lost to a basic cutter.

[admin]

marines upgrade is one of the well designed upgrades

it gives both a great advantage and a disadvantage + gives you a choice

 

By installing it you decide which % of crew is hired as sailors/gunners and which % as professional boarders

[Quineloe]

Quinneloe, can you post a screenshot of a boarding action where the defender was not trying to commit suicide and lose as quickly as possible?

 

That list of orders is stupendously terrible. He would have lost to a basic cutter.

 

It doesn't matter whether I switch into attack when he can't defend, the outcome is pretty much the same. The point is the 40% marines made this possible. 10% marines would not have. Or do you want to dispute that?

[maturin]

It doesn't matter whether I switch into attack when he can't defend, the outcome is pretty much the same. The point is the 40% marines made this possible. 10% marines would not have. Or do you want to dispute that?

AFAIK, 40% marines means that a crew of 200 counts as a crew of 280. Seems to me that a crew of 450 should be able to win against 280, so long as they don't always choose the least advantageous option in boarding.

 

Would a similarly inept captain lose against a crew of 220? Maybe. I'm not sure, but it sounds plausible. Could have been a closer result.

[Bommel]

40% marines means 40% of your crew will be marines and can not be used for other purposes like sailing,gunning or survival. They are experts only used for boarding and nothing else.  

[maturin]

40% marines means 40% of your crew will be marines and can not be used for other purposes like sailing,gunning or survival. They are experts only used for boarding and nothing else.

AFAIK the devs once said that marines count as 2 men in boarding. So 200 men with 40% marines is as strong as 280 men.