Constitution and other vessels - history or gameplay

[MacVaultDweller]

Please rename the ship you call the Constitution. This ship does not reflect the characteristic of the actual ship it is supposes to be based on. 

[Pagan Pete]

Could ye be more specific?

[Snoopy]

Aye, she desperately needs a buff.

The ship is so bad and UP at the moment that even if she got the live oak stats without the speed penalty like some have argued..

you're still looking at a ship only experts can make work (some of the time) that could be easily countered by a Cherubim or Belle Poule captain with half a brain.

[maturin]

What's wrong with it besides the speed?

[maturin]

What's wrong with it besides the speed?

Actually, I'll answer my own question, because the ship's 3D model has more problems than any other vessel in the game.

 

• The hull is way too wallsided, lacking any apparent tumblehome.
• The lower yards are mounted far too high, clipping with everything and dooming the rest of the sails to proportion problems.
• The mizzen topgallant is particular is oversized.
• Spritsail needs to be removed.

[NorthernWolves]

What's wrong? Where do we start? That she is more sluggish than a Santisima? That she is a leak factory even with Live Oak? That she heels like a Trincomalee despite having a deeper draft than a Bellona?
 
How about this little problem?
 

 
And for the people whose knowledge of the Constitution's size and construction is superficial and in passing only, this is a good little primer:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkclwlg93irw4o7/Con%20Research%20Quotes.pdf?dl=0
 
And for a more detailed study:
 
http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3341-the-case-for-increasing-the-constitutions-armor-thickness-and-hit-points/
 
If there are any further questions I am a walking Constitution library and I love to discuss this issue, which I have been petitioning to get resolved going on a year now.


As for her speed:
 

If we want to be faithful to reality, here is what actually happened, and there is not a more perfect and well documented chase in the age of fighting sail with which to compare the speed of one ship in a chase against 5 others of various size across a range of wind conditions.
 
At sunrise on July 18 the British ships began sailing toward the Constitution, and the chase was on. 
 
In a 57 hour pursuit that started in light airs, fell to a dead calm, into light airs again, then to a strong breeze and then to a short squall the USS Constitution outran HMS Aeolus 32-gun, HMS Africa 64-gun, HMS Belvidera 36-gun, HMS Guerrière 38-gun and the HMS Shannon 38-gun Leda-class.
 
At one point during the kedging phase all the British boats were sent to tow the Shannon in an attempt to close the distance, but by morning the Constitution had extended the gap by 3 miles. When the breeze began to pick up she quickly opened a 6 mile gap. By the following morning it had grown to 12 miles.
 
Right now she would be overhauled by any of those vessels in the game.

As for her maneuverability:

 

Here's the thing, let's get this fixed now, because there are thousands of history buffs and age of sail experts out there who will pour into this game; once they realize that this ship is being treated much differently than any other ship in assignment of HP will not go over well. 

 

Imagine the Victory having half the HP of the Santisima. How would the community react? The Constitution is closer in size to the Bellona than the Victory is to the Santisima.

[admin]

Please rename the ship you call the Constitution. This ship does not reflect the characteristic of the actual ship it is supposes to be based on. 

 

I renamed your topic Captain. But Constitution is not going to be renamed. Its a great ship and its done well. 

[admin]

 

Imagine the Victory having half the HP of the Santisima. How would the community react? The Constitution is closer in size to the Bellona than the Victory is to the Santisima.

 

Sorry man. But we have seen it all before in Wargaming. A national group is pushing for their favorite vessel to be the strongest.

 

For the less zealous Captains and for those who want gameplay.

Here are the points for the consideration

 

If we listen to Northern and do exactly like he says then we also have to do the following.

1. Mercury buff. If we base our ships on books and desires then Mercury will become the strongest ship in game. It demasted 2 Turkish ships of the line during combat and escaped because it was almost losing a mast and did not want to risk it. Mercury could win against those 2 lineships but the whole fleet was coming closer so it had to escape. Russian ships will also get bomb guns - they were using them before 1830. Bomb guns will start fires killing 10% of crew on each hit while destroying guns and hull.
2. We will also buff British sloops. Because they could board El Gamo they can board any ships 3x larger than them. All british sloops will get 300 prep bonuses, morale bonuses and their crew will turn into lions (acting like 5 marines)
3. French corvettes also will be buffed because books and paintings. Mayonnaise and Bayonnaise can board any vessel larger then them and win automatically. 
4. Surprise will be buffed to take on 4th-3rd rates (in fact in early testing 2 Surprises could easily conduct the fights with Victory and sink it)
5. Trincomalee will also be buffed so they can win against any US super frigate - based on the Chesapeake case vs Leda class Shannon. Chesapeake only had 6 guns less than Constitution. But it all does not matter because British reload rates will be buffed to their historical book level 

Welcome new sea overlord Brig Mercury. If it was able to demast 2 ships of the line it will win easily against 4 Constitutions.

 

 

Right?

[admin]

 

 
In a 57 hour pursuit that started in light airs, fell to a dead calm, into light airs again, then to a strong breeze and then to a short squall the USS Constitution outran HMS Aeolus 32-gun, HMS Africa 64-gun, HMS Belvidera 36-gun, HMS Guerrière 38-gun and the HMS Shannon 38-gun Leda-class.
 
At one point during the kedging phase all the British boats were sent to tow the Shannon in an attempt to close the distance, but by morning the Constitution had extended the gap by 3 miles. When the breeze began to pick up she quickly opened a 6 mile gap. By the following morning it had grown to 12 miles.
 

 

 

Constitution is faster than Trinco (leda class shannon) at closer angles to wind. Trinco is faster at 135

• Regarding turning - it turns like right now because you requested to test it - all turn rates were nerfed drastically. I personally don't like it and will gradually increase them back to the acceptable levels. Turn rates (esp turn radius) on frigates right now are much lower than historical relatively to the battle time lengths. 
• HP and speeds will be tuned anyway once all vessels get in
• Constitution already has the highest single shotted and doubleshotted alpha damage in game before Victory and Santi. But because it sails and turns better than Santi and Victory - consti already outdps first rates.

All strong ships must have a drawback. Ships without drawbacks become boring and OP.

If you suggest a buff - bring it with a drawback.

[admin]

Aye, she desperately needs a buff.

The ship is so bad and UP at the moment that even if she got the live oak stats without the speed penalty like some have argued..

you're still looking at a ship only experts can make work (some of the time) that could be easily countered by a Cherubim or Belle Poule captain with half a brain.

 

If you don't manage energy in this ship you will sail as a brick

Super frigates shine in hands of the experienced Captain. If you tried to drive a Race car you will know what i mean. 

We are not going to buff Constitution to make it accessible for a captain with Half a brain. Captain should learn to sail before they get into advanced vessels.

[Young]

"Trincomalee will also be buffed so they can win against any US super frigate - based on the Chesapeake case vs Leda class Shannon. Chesapeake only had 6 guns less than Constitution. "

 

Admin i sail for the US nation but i am Canadian so I am not Harping on the Constitution in some nationalistic way. Using the Chesapeake Shannon engagement as a example doesn't really work if we look at the facts of the battle.

The Chesapeake was not ready for a fight in many ways. Cargo was loaded on the top deck the crew had not practiced at the guns.Then the new Captain was taunted into coming out of port by a much more skilled British captain of the Shannon. The Constitution was my favorite ship, I understand it needs to be balanced. The balance is a 74 has more guns and wins every time but they should have almost equal planking hp with the connie having a little less. 

 

[admin]

 

As for her maneuverability:

 

 

 

Where exactly is the indication of the superior turning?

All I see is a Super Frigate winning against a Banterer brig sloop and a Packetboat

I can win against a snow (24) and a cerberus (26) with my eyes closed. I don't need superior turning or luffing for that. 

 

No offence against the Consti and her fans. I went to one school in Boston and its the second real ship that we made in the game after Victory. But I am not sure she could fight against a 74 1 on 1. 

[admin]

"Trincomalee will also be buffed so they can win against any US super frigate - based on the Chesapeake case vs Leda class Shannon. Chesapeake only had 6 guns less than Constitution. "

 

Admin i sail for the US nation but i am Canadian so I am not Harping on the Constitution in some nationalistic way. Using the Chesapeake Shannon engagement as a example doesn't really work if we look at the facts of the battle.

The Chesapeake was not ready for a fight in many ways. Cargo was loaded on the top deck the crew had not practiced at the guns.Then the new Captain was taunted into coming out of port by a much more skilled British captain of the Shannon. The Constitution was my favorite ship, I understand it needs to be balanced. The balance is a 74 has more guns and wins every time but they should have almost equal planking hp with the connie having a little less. 

 

 

You did not get the irony i guess

so you are ok with the Mercury buff?

[marecek05]

For me personally I would love to see the consti being fast, well "armoured" (comparably to a 74), relatively slow to accelerate and not very maneuverable. Building it should cost very similarly to a 74 in terms of resources and labour, but should give less crafting xp to be balanced.

But overall for me consti, isn't that far from being good, for me a slight armour buff would do it.

 

As currently the game favours very close engagements, due to power of boarding and the fact that every ship is crewed by a herculian crew able to pull thousand tonne ship sideways, while moving. In close engagement, nimble and manouverable Cherubim gets the advantage and when combined with its ability to carry all carronades it really makes it difficult for a consti captain.

 

If frigate would have to rely on its weight only to actually stop the consti, while consti would be allowed to carry 68 pounder carronades on the gun deck, we would see a very different results.

Therefore for me, problem isn't the consti itself, but close distance engagemetns due to the ease of initiating the boarding and weird armament rules for ships.

Edited October 30, 2015 by marecek05

[Young]

Heck yea! Mercury gang ho!

 

But in all seriousness

 

The Constitution as it stands now can get worked over by one Basic frigate 

From a player vs player stand point the only + is crew and some 24's but that is all negated by slow speed, turn, weak planking, fire and leak prone sides. sounds like that constitution needs an amendment

 

As mentioned above i would be happy to have its stats in line with the 74 with its planking just a little lower but it its very sad to see live oak 74 pull away from your constitutions in battle 

[admin]

Heck yea! Mercury gang ho!

 

But in all seriousness

 

The Constitution as it stands now can get worked over by one Basic frigate 

From a player vs player stand point the only + is crew and some 24's but that is all negated by slow speed, turn, weak planking, fire and leak prone sides. sounds like that constitution needs an amendment

 

 

I am not sure - perhaps there is a wrong number for her in the armor class. It should be as strong as the 3rd rate.

[LeBoiteux]

Sorry man. But we have seen it all before in Wargaming. A national group is pushing for their favorite vessel to be the strongest.

 

For the less zealous Captains and for those who want gameplay.

Here are the points for the consideration

 

If we listen to Northern and do exactly like he says then we also have to do the following.

1. Mercury buff. If we base our ships on books and desires then Mercury will become the strongest ship in game. It demasted 2 Turkish ships of the line during combat and escaped because it was almost losing a mast and did not want to risk it. Mercury could win against those 2 lineships but the whole fleet was coming closer so it had to escape. Russian ships will also get bomb guns - they were using them before 1830. Bomb guns will start fires killing 10% of crew on each hit while destroying guns and hull.
2. We will also buff British sloops. Because they could board El Gamo they can board any ships 3x larger than them. All british sloops will get 300 prep bonuses, morale bonuses and their crew will turn into lions (acting like 5 marines)
3. French corvettes also will be buffed because books and paintings. Mayonnaise and Bayonnaise can board any vessel larger then them and win automatically. 
4. Surprise will be buffed to take on 4th-3rd rates (in fact in early testing 2 Surprises could easily conduct the fights with Victory and sink it)
5. Trincomalee will also be buffed so they can win against any US super frigate - based on the Chesapeake case vs Leda class Shannon. Chesapeake only had 6 guns less than Constitution. But it all does not matter because British reload rates will be buffed to their historical book level 

Welcome new sea overlord Brig Mercury. If it was able to demast 2 ships of the line it will win easily against 4 Constitutions.

 

Right?

 

You forgot one thing (n° 6). A true historical one : La Belle Poule was light, easy to handle and manoeuvrable, even for someone who've never sailed. Thus, she should be buffed and given to FRENCH newcomers instead of a lynx (for the other nations). Here is the ultimate proof :

Woman in a Day Dress with a hairstyle 'a la Belle Poule',

period of American Independence, 1779-80

Edited October 30, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Charles Caldwell]

 But it all does not matter because British reload rates will be buffed to their historical book level 

 

 

yes please

[admin]

On a serious note. 

 

Ship planking currently is tuned for gaps that still exists in game (we have said this several times before).

Once Razees, 2 more heavy frigates and 4th rates will get into the game planking state will be rebalanced. We are already working on this with Barberouge based on the Northernwolves and other Captains suggestions. 

[akd]

Russian ships will also get bomb guns - they were using them before 1830. Bomb guns will start fires killing 10% of crew on each hit while destroying guns and hull.

I'd actually be fine with this if it was done correctly, which would mean something like X% chance of killing own crew and setting own ship on fire when using them, while also having very variable terminal effects (fuze technology at the time was very primitive). They were removed from service entirely for a significant period before 1830. Other navies mostly abandoned use of bombs aboard navy vessels in our period except aboard specialist mortar vessels because the dangers were considered to outweigh the benefits.

Anyways, Mercury does need a buff based on historical fact (not relative outcome nonsense, dependent on huge number of factors beyond physical characteristics of ships, most of which are not in the game): she should have 24lb carronades.

Also, to correct a misrepresentation above: although a big frigate, Chesapeake was not in same class as Constitution and very closely matched HMS Shannon from a material standpoint. And Shannon had 54 guns/carronades to Chesapeake's 50! (Not that counting guns alone is valid way to compare.)

[Malachi]

Russian ships will also get bomb guns - they were using them before 1830. Bomb guns will start fires killing 10% of crew on each hit while destroying guns and hull.

 

 

If russian 'bomb guns' are shell guns then this is one of the many reasons why 1815 would be a much sensible end point for NA than 1830. Just saying.

 

 

On topic: give the Conny the armour of a 80- or 90- gun ship, make her fast (13 knots non-scaled), make her live-oak only, slightly less maneuverable than, let´s say, Bellona and make her really expensive.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Malachi

[OlavDeng2]

I'd actually be fine with this if it was done correctly, which would mean something like X% chance of killing own crew and setting own ship on fire when using them, while also having very variable terminal effects (fuze technology at the time was very primitive). They were removed from service entirely for a significant period before 1830. Other navies mostly abandoned use of bombs aboard navy vessels in our period except aboard specialist mortar vessels because the dangers were considered to outweigh the benefits.

Anyways, Mercury does need a buff based on historical fact (not relative outcome nonsense, dependent on huge number of factors beyond physical characteristics of ships, most of which are not in the game): she should have 24lb carronades.

Also, to correct serious misrepresentation above: although a big frigate, Chesapeake was not in same class as Constitution and very closely matched HMS Shannon from a material standpoint. And Shannon had 54 guns/carronades to Chesapeake's 50! (Not that counting guns alone is valid way to compare.)

I dislike this for a couple reasons:

 

1. it is random, which will end up being extreamly frustrating and it can have consuquences to the ships(which i will get to with then next two points)

 

2. it will Be OP if your ship doesnt bomb it self often enough

 

3. it will be UP if your ship bombs your self too often.

 

Honestly what we have know is easier on the devs(as they dont have to program in a new shot type and limit it to one nation ships) and it is also easier to balance what we have now.

[maturin]

I just read through Northern's list of references again, and I still haven't heard anyone specifically praise Constitution's maneuverability, despite near obsessive attention paid to every one of her other characteristics, even 'stoutness of spars.' We hear about the relationship of weight of construction vs speed, but nothing about 'nimbleness' (as it would be referred to at the time).

 

Against Cyane and Levant she seemed able to wear quite well and get in raking broadsides, bearing in mind, of course, that at least one of the other ships was near totally disabled in the running rigging.

 

As Robert Gardiner writes, maneuvers had fallen by the wayside in single-ship actions by this time. IRL stern camping wasn't really a thing, so all we really have here is a very well-handled and excessively well-manned Constitution pitted against British ships that were usually seriously below complement.  When you're short on crew, you forgo the fancy maneuvers and hope you can lay alongside at pistol shot and hammer away until the other guy surrenders. I haven't checked the complements of the British ships in each of the actions concerned, but I doubt they were all well-manned. Even their official listed complements were probably barebones at that point in the war.

[Chustler]

I am not an American IRL, but I do play as American.  I know my opinion would be the same regardless of the nation I play in game.  My opinion on the Constitution is that she clearly is not quite modeled in game as she really was (width, tumblehome).    I think Northern's argument that we should try to make the stats close to reality is a valid argument.  I can understand the fear that the Connie would become the only 'go to' ship in the game, but the multinational group of guys who have put Northern's info together have done some solid work there, and to ignore the reality of the constitution would be a mistake.  His proposal would not make the Connie outperform line ships in battle (still won't have the number of heavy guns), but it would be a very nice frigate.  I see nothing wrong with that.  I have trouble seeing why the info these gentlemen have presented would NOT be implemented.

[Prater]

I wasn't aware that Alex Conner, Sir Cunningham, SueMyChin, and Charles Caldwell were nationalistic Americans.

 

Speaking of the Mercury.  If you made it comparable to how you have the Coni right now, it should have the downwind top speed of the Pickle and the hit points of a Privateer.

 

If you made the Mercury this way, Russians would be upset.  If you make the Constitution how you have it currently, Americans are upset, and the world wide community take our side and say it needs major buffs.