Constitution and other vessels - history or gameplay

[Prater]

You say that live oak connie sucks, it should be faster (even stronger?)

You are specific with accompanying gun nerf and I'd like you to be more specific with at what speed you would be happy with it.

When talking about a live oak Connie, speed is a far more important balance parameter than the top deck guns, I presume.

 

 

I already said, the speed changed with the last patch.  Now if someone wants to give me a fir Pavel and (all wood type) Trincs that do not have Planking, Build Strength or Speed, then feel free.

[maturin]

You are specific with accompanying gun nerf and I'd like you to be more specific with at what speed you would be happy with it.

 

You can't just straight-up ASK someone how much they're willing to be haggled down, lol.

[Prater]

I already said where I think it should be.  I don't know the specific speeds because they changed.  If maturin thinks differently, then of course I defer to him, but from my understanding a Live Oak Coni should be faster than the an Oak Bellona and slower than a Teak Trinc.  What was the top speed of the Pavel?  I assume slower than the Constitution.  Same with the Santi.   I Also think that a Live Oak Coni should be faster than every Fir Sol unless they have max speed trim and copper plating and inbuilt speed.  This is the same for any Live Oak Frigate, BellePoule or Trinc.  The Live Oak versions should not be caught by Fir Sols.

[maturin]

 

I Also think that a Live Oak Coni should be faster than every Fir Sol unless they have max speed trim and copper plating and inbuilt speed.

Barring variable wind speeds. But apparently we're not getting those because players will be confused.

[Prater]

Barring variable wind speeds. But apparently we're not getting those because players will be confused.

 

Well yes, in heavy seas the sols would be faster.  Actually, I don't see why the storm map can't have speed modifiers for the different ships.

[Alex Connor]

I still don't like speed mods and don't think there should be any significant speed differences between wood types (even if that means Connies are Live Oak only and everything else is Fir/Oak/Teak). Copper plating reduces speed loss from hull fouling, it does not actually increase speed. And there are not separate speed/turning trims etc, a well trimmed ship is a well trimmed ship and will be good at both. And trimming is skill + knowledge, it's weight distribution and experimentation to find exact depth (fore and aft) at which the ship sails best. 

 

Constitution should be doing 13kts or slightly under in historical configuration (Live Oak, 24 pdrs + 32lb carronades). I don't really want to see 14kt+ Fir Connies running around even if that's how fast the ship might have been built from Fir (in the same way that I don't want to see all carronade SoL even if that's technically feasible).

 

Trincomalee (Leda class) should be doing 13kts or slightly above when built out Fir/Oak/Teak. Belle Poule, about 13kts with 12 + 6 pdrs (if overgunned speed should drop a lot).

 

Bellona class 74s and other Slade variations of the design (Arrogant class etc) could hit 12kts in a good wind. Bellerophon in particular was known for exceeding 12kts and on several occasions outrunning the entire fleet (frigates included). I'm not sure exactly how to handle SoL speed though, because SoL were only really quick in a strong wind and we don't have variation in wind speed.

[jodgi]

I see, you mainly think about how to make it more competitive fighting the big ones?

One step towards a 3rd rate/Pavel is two steps ahead of frig/trinco.

If a live oak connie goes (calculated) at 11.4 knots, live oak frig (calculated) at 11.8 with nades and 11.3 with longs. Isn't the connie fast enough relative to the smaller ones?

I have a fir trinco with built in golden speed, if I run that with all nades it tops out at 13.7 knots. You can knock off about half a knot for longs and roughly 5% for live oak. That ends up (calculated) at 12.6 knots max for the live longs trinco. How fast should a live oak connie go?

I've heard you and others say: "We'll fix it with murderous eco balancing", you say that knowing that Tommy and Ellis et al are poised to just brute force their way through that barrier. Everyone accepts brutal eco with end of the line stuff like a santi. But a santi is stat balanced with horrible speed and is not a generalist OW ship.

In the current lineup, is it worth the risk to make the connie such an outlier?

With razee and other monsters potentially lurking on the distant horizon, maybe the connie could be live oak, go 14 knots and be considered weak?

[maturin]

Connie shouldn't be a generalist ship, and shouldn't be part of the standard lineup. That's the whole point.

 

 

Connie murders balance, and should therefore be treated as end of the line.

[Prater]

 

 

I see, you mainly think about how to make it more competitive fighting the big ones?

 

No, how to get away from the sols.  If the Bellona maneuvers similar to or better than the Coni, the Coni can't stern camp it, and will most likely run away from player Bellonas.

 

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Santi is stat balanced.  It is very fast, very heavy, and very strong.

 

Tommy's Fir Trinc goes 15 knots btw, or that is what he told me post patch.  I have a suspicion that inbuilt planking affects speed if yours has that.

 

The idea is that SOLs shouldn't be able to catch the Coni/Trinc/Frigate no matter what they are built out of unless heavy winds are brought in.

 

And as maturin said, the connie "should be treated as end of the line."

[jodgi]

I still don't like speed mods

+1++++++11!!!!11111!!!omg!!111!leplus+1

Let speeds be written in stone.

Play with heel, turning, acceleration, aimtime, accuracy, gun angles, yards, sails, reload, durability, whatever. But leave speed alone.

[jodgi]

No, how to get away from the sols.  If the Bellona maneuvers similar to or better than the Coni, the Coni can't stern camp it, and will most likely run away from player Bellonas.

 

 

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the Santi is stat balanced.  It is very fast, very heavy, and very strong.

 

Tommy's Fir Trinc goes 15 knots btw, or that is what he told me post patch.  I have a suspicion that inbuilt planking affects speed if yours has that.

 

The idea is that SOLs shouldn't be able to catch the Coni/Trinc/Frigate no matter what they are built out of unless heavy winds are brought in.

 

And as maturin said, the connie "should be treated as end of the line."

My trinc is only fir and built in golden speed, I have room for it but right now no other speedmods.

I heartily agree that SOLs shouldn't be able to catch the frigates. Speedmods are such a headache.

Treated as end of the line = The painful, unfair and pointless eco balancing ploy, eh?

How can a live oak connie going 13-14 knots not be the ultimate generalist? (If you say "eco", I'll spank you!)

edit: I've avoided santi as much as I can. Had one go with it in Sea Trials and left it alone, so far I haven't been forced to santi. Maybe I'm ignorant? Put a number to "very fast santi", please?

[Alex Connor]

Progression in this game is totally borked (I'm not talking about the honor kills or anything recent btw). 

 

Progression systems pitting different ranks against each should work on the principle of diminishing returns. You pay 50% more for a ship 5% better, etc. Instead, we've got a system where each step up is almost exponentially better for only a token increase in cost.

 

As a result, it's inevitable everyone ends up sailing the best and biggest ships all the time, especially when cost is literally no object.

 

All this needs to be fixed or ships like the Connie will actually be game-breaking in the same way the 1st rates are now.

[maturin]

 

Let speeds be written in stone.

Play with heel, turning, acceleration, aimtime, accuracy, gun angles, yards, sails, reload, durability, whatever. But leave speed alone.

I think he just wants them to be more logical.

 

The mods we how now are called Speed Trim and Copper Plating. But they have nothing to do with either of those things.

 

From the sound of it, speed mods may be at a good place stat-wise finally. But I would still rather have them apply to one point of sail primarily, with tiny bonuses for the others.

 

 

 

How can a live oak connie going 13-14 knots not be the ultimate generalist? (If you say "eco", I'll spank you!)

How were you planning on preventing port battles from becoming all Santi, all the time?

 

 

 

Tommy's Fir Trinc goes 15 knots btw, or that is what he told me post patch.

I bet he's using a pre-patch speed mod or something.

 

 

Progression systems pitting different ranks against each should work on the principle of diminishing returns. You pay 50% more for a ship 5% better, etc. Instead, we've got a system where each step up is almost exponentially better for only a token increase in cost.

 

As a result, it's inevitable everyone ends up sailing the best and biggest ships all the time, especially when cost is literally no object.

Are you saying that prices should be jacked up artificially? (Historically a sloop-of-war cost about 25% as much as an SoL, IIRC)

 

Lineship bundles?

 

Edit: Actually masts could be the equivalent of lineship bundles. Not many places in the Caribbean with three-foot diameter trees.

[SteelSandwich]

How were you planning on preventing port battles from becoming all Santi, all the time?

 

Let me take that one:

 

- Due to having fortifications there is need for siege ships.

- Due to potential raiding, heavy merchantman are needed for resource transport.

- Due to specific locations of ports, shallow waters can be present

- Due to distant location in OW ports can be attacked fast by fleets of frigates, no SOL's needed.

Edited November 3, 2015 by SteelSandwich

[Alex Connor]

I think he just wants them to be more logical.

 

The mods we how now are called Speed Trim and Copper Plating. But they have nothing to do with either of those things.

 

From the sound of it, speed mods may be at a good place stat-wise finally. But I would still rather have them apply to one point of sail primarily, with tiny bonuses for the others.

 

Steel got the right of it, I really don't want to see speed mods in Naval Action. Speed is simply the most important individual characteristic and overshadows everything else, forcing everyone to run around speed modded.

 

If there must be variation in speed within individual classes, let it be something where captains have to set a trim themselves (with weight of armament, amount of ballast and it's positioning, stowing stores etc). The exact best trim would vary between ships, I can imagine lots of experimentation, nations and groups having jealously guarded secrets for getting the best performance out of individual types.

 

Are you saying that prices should be jacked up artificially? (Historically a sloop-of-war cost about 25% as much as an SoL, IIRC)

 

Lineship bundles?

 

Edit: Actually masts could be the equivalent of lineship bundles. Not many places in the Caribbean with three-foot diameter trees.

 

 

Cost in materials/gold, no. That just favors the grinders.

 

Cost in labor hours, yes, because labor hours are linked to real time passing and no matter how much you grind you can't use more hours than you've got, making it a good way to put people who can't play 7 days a week on the same footing as the powergrinders.

 

I'd like to see the production rate on higher end ships slowed down a lot (reflecting that it would take a captain a very long time to get command of such a ship), glaringly overgunned/overpowered ships like the 1st rates cut down to historical levels, and probably dura reduced (for the top end ships if nothing else). A month to build a Victory, 10 days to build a Bellona, 5 days to build a Trincomalee etc, 2 days to build a Surprise, something like that.

 

With a build rate like that and historical armaments (3rds rates a lot closer in power to 1st rates than at present)  the sensible policy would be to concentrate on 3rd rates for building a fleet with perhaps a 1st rate or 2 for the admirals. If one side goes for only/mainly 1st rates, they won't be able to compete on numbers or firepower and will get overwhelmed. 4th rates (5 days) would be solid work horses for escort duties or lighter fleet actions, half the time needed for a Bellona but more than enough firepower to handle frigates. And ships like the Constitution (20 days) would be a serious luxury, because you'd be able to build 4 Ledas in the same time, any 2 of which would be able to beat the Connie.

 

This also offers a way to bring obsolete types like the 18 pdr 2 decked 5th rate ship into contention. Sure, it's the same firepower as a Leda in a slower package, but if it can be built in 2.5 days instead of 5 then this ship would be worth considering.

 

Such a system would allow ships to match up to their historical counterparts while retaining a good ship balance in the open world, because the really powerful monsters would never be able to built in large enough numbers to dominate.

[Magnum]

A simple way to settle this:

 

Only people who have beaten Jodgi 1v1 in his "UP" Connie - get to post about how "UP" it is.

 

Only rules: Against a larger ship Jodgi escaping is a win (for him), against a equal ship or smaller you must sink or cap him to win.

 

Short, sharp, simple ....

 

(now i am getting some blood flow looking forward to that!)

[jodgi]

I think he just wants them to be more logical.

I'm not trying to trick you. I really want speeds to be known. I've been doing flightsims since the nineties and more recently WoT. Balance pivots on speeds in those games, it is risky to pretend it doesn't in Naval Action.

 

A simple way to settle this:

[jodgi]

You must get tired of listening to my speedwhining. Early this summer Garbad posted some thoughts on speeds I think it is worth it to repeat. I'm just a giant blindzone when it comes to EVE and PotBS, I never played them, maybe you will listen to someone with EVE knowledge?

Since this is about making the strongest frigate one of the fastest, it is relevant though it is aimed at speedmods in general coupled with empowering of super rich powergrinders.

Garbad (Hope you don't mind, dude):

Even 1% is too much. Any speed increase is too much, because any advantage is enough to give them the ability to dictate the engagement. I think speed needs to be hard set based on hull, in order to appropriately balance risk/reward for various ship types, and to reduce ganking.

Take POTBS -- there were exactly two kinds of acceptable fits. 1) bring every speed mod possible on a fast hull, be able to run from anything that floats under any conditions. Then 1v1 other speedboats, or gank in packs as the situation allows. Never take a risk, and ruin the game by ganking everything else. 2) bring no speed mods, and pure heavy combat fit. Move in a group, ideally with a few speedboat tacklers, and control a given area. Then carefully slink back home, praying you don't get split off and ganked. That's the meta speed mods will create -- ONLY speed mods or blobs can be used, because otherwise any other fit is gank bait.

And that's just not good gameplay.

...

1. Speed mods should not exist, period. If they do, this means gankpacks of speedboats will specialize in ships that can wolfpack gank people alone and run from anything else. Speed mods also make it so that noobs (who don't yet have mods) will always be food for veterans. Finally, because speed is so king, and so essential to balance, if speed mods are allowed they usually are the only mod people can run (see potbs). So IMO, no speed mods should be allowed, period.

Keep in mind Garbad knew nothing about the ganking problem we have/are (see what I did there?). It is proven common sense applicable to all games that have moving pixels that can shoot.

[Alex Connor]

Just going to leave this here...

 

No speed modifications/buffs. Customisation of armament for different combat styles (or removing armament for cargo capacity), yes. Leveling crew or captain skills to improve reload, accuracy, agility etc, sure. But nothing for speed beyond player skill with manual sail controls.

[Malachi]

+1 for no speed modules

 

There would be plenty of room for ship customisation if we´d get to trim our ships.

 

- more trim aft, slightly better downwind performance but worse close-hauled, more trim forward, the other way round.

 

- more ballast overall -> stiffer, slightly better performance upwind, but slower on a beam reach and running.

 

- abilty to add a additional false keel when in port -> better performance close-hauled, less speed downwind

 

- ability to remove some cannons on the quarterdeck and forecastle for a slight speed buff or in combination with more ballast a stiffer ship

 

Add randomisation when crafting  (e.g. + / - 0.3 on close-hauled, beam reach and running performance, but balanced, so if you lose .2 knots close-hauled, you´ll get it back running or broad reach) and we´d get truly unique and personal ships.

 

And we´d have to conduct some sort of sea trials to find the 'ideal' load waterline for our ship and playstyle.  Would be pretty cool imo.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Malachi

[marecek05]

+1 for no speed modules

 

There would be plenty room for ship customisation if we´d get to trim our ships.

 

- more trim aft, slightly better downwind performance but worse close-hauled, more trim forward, the other way round.

 

- more ballast overall -> stiffer, slightly better performance upwind, but slower on a beam reach and running.

 

- abilty to add a additional false keel when in port -> better performance close-hauled, less speed downwind

 

- ability to remove some cannons on the quarterdeck and forecastle for a slight speed buff or in combination with more ballast a stiffer ship

 

Add randomisation when crafting  (e.g. + / - 0.3 on close-hauled, beam reach and running performance, but balanced, so if you lose .2 knots close-hauled, you´ll get it back running or broad reach) and we´d get truly unique and personal ships.

 

And we´d have to conduct some sort of sea trials to find the 'ideal' load waterline for our ship and playstyle.  Would be pretty cool imo.

 

This brings me memories of some Formula 1 games, where you could really fine tune aspects of the car, braking ratio, transmission ratios, etc.

 

If we could do that in the game that would be something. Not have a flat +5% to speed overall but the ability to play with weight placement, even with different sail plans. As Malachi proposes they would have each consequences.

Imagine a trincomalee without the spar deck guns, but with extra balast - less heel.

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by marecek05

[Captain Lord Cochrane]

1. Trincomalee will also be buffed so they can win against any US super frigate - based on the Chesapeake case vs Leda class Shannon. Chesapeake only had 6 guns less than Constitution. But it all does not matter because British reload rates will be buffed to their historical book level 

 

 

A little late to this discussion but just wanted to point out that Chesapeake wasn't a super frigate. She was a somewhat small frigate, 152' ft long, and was the smallest of the American frigates, smaller than even the Congress.

She carried 50 guns, broadside weight 542lbs; the Shannon 52 guns, broadside  550lbs and as mentioned was horribly captained.

 

The Constitution defeated 2 ships almost identical to the Shannon; the Guerriere she wrecked, 49 guns, 556lbs broadside with very little injury to herself; the Java, 48 guns, 520lbs broadside, with even less problems; and the Cyane, 34 guns, 454lbs and Levant, 20 guns, 309lbs, simultaneously, a combined 763lbs broadside to the Constitutions 704lbs at that time, the Constitution lost 3 men to the former's 61. 

I think the point of the quotation of the action between those two ships and the Constitution was possibly to demonstrate that she is more handily that many might assume due to her sheer size, as one of  the British captains stated "her maneuvering was as brilliant as any recorded in naval annals" and as Roosevelt states "it would have been simply impossible to surpass the consummate skill with which she was handled in the smoke, always keeping her antagonists to the leeward and while raking both of them not being once raked herself."

I don't see a 74 raking a 34 gun and 20 gun multiple times and not being raked herself.

Valid points all around however, this forum is becoming quite the repository for ship facts and appears rather high in a google search for things like ship measurements and broadsides, and that is awesome.

 

That was an amazing feat by the Mercury, oh those poor Turks, they couldn't hit a broadside of a barn with a, well broadside of a first rate haha.

[NorthernWolves]

Lots of people making authoritative statements about a ship they don't really know a whole lot about. I get it, the Constitution has become an extension of TDA, me and the US faction.

 

You will never see such collective passion about whether the Bellona should have 18s or 24s on her 2nd gundeck will you? Or whether the Surprise should have only carronades on the gundeck.

 

That's ok.

 

Bottom line, per the rules of the game, the Constitution should have 42lb carronades on her spar deck if she wants. She carried 42's there after replacing the long guns after the Triploi campaign of 1803. They were then swapped to 32s.

 

The President, the lightest built of the 3 big 44s, carried 42's on her spar deck her entire career and was captured with them.

 

I know people are passionate about taking the Constitution down a notch and people are passionate about having her represented correctly, so let's keep it civil, me included. 

 

The internet is not the be all end all of ship research, most of these books about these 200 year old ships have not been digitized. You have to spend some time reading.
 

"During her lay-up, plans were carried out to upgrade her battery and replace the 12pdr long guns with thirty-two 42pdr carronades on her quarterdeck and forecastle."  -Sailing Warships of the U.S. Navy. Not digitized. This is a much sought after tome by ship model enthusiasts, it is $80 when you can find it.
 

"42-pdrcarronades first replaced long guns on spar deck after the Tripoli campaign." -  The 44-gun Frigate USS Constitution: "Old Ironsides"  Easy to find,  about $47

 

The Frigate Constitution and other Historic Ships by Magoun, talks about the 42lb carronades quite extensively, it's about $90, not digitized
 

Here is a free one Interpreting Old Ironsides by Charles E. Brodine Jr., Michael J. Crawford, Christine F. Hughes produced by the Naval Historical Center

http://ibiblio.org/pha/IOI.pdf

 

Here is an easily searchable and non-reference source that talks about the 42s, it's common knowledge and not really debated among people who know the ship, I'm surprised so many are confused about this.
http://www.historynet.com/uss-constitution-the-legendary-survivor.htm

[SteelSandwich]

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Edited December 10, 2015 by SteelSandwich