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Constitution and other vessels - history or gameplay


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If i read correctly the thing prater things are mandatory are speed and armor.

The things that Alex considers mandatory are guns and armor.

 

With that said, i ran a little test yesterday. I joined a battle with another dutch player who owned a live oak connie and we tested her speed. She reached 13kn in battle without any speed mods.

As Alex put it:

''Speed for Constitution should be around 12.5-13ts with live oak (probably should be live oak only). Speeds are now historical-ish, so no adjustment needed.''

So i am not sure where exactly lies the problem with her speed? It currently is at the top-end of that scale...

If you want a speedy one, just get one with exceptional speed, speed trim and copper plating and you can still have incredibly fast live oak connie.

 

On account of her guns:

As prater put it:

''12lbers is a good compromise''

''Why should we go over its historical broadside weight?''

Well, you are the one who suggests she should carry a heavier armament, i only reply to your suggested ajustment.

For all i care you set a make her limit set for M/L guns on 12lb and carronade wise on 32lb. As historical as it will get.

 

And for alex, since you cant split gundeck, its either you make her spardeck a full 12lb set, a full 32lb carronade set, or a full 42lb carronade set.

Of which the first 2 she actually carried, the latter one she(the constitution, not the sisters) never did.(or show me where she did)

 

So, in my eyes it comes down to this:

 

On account of her hull:

As i have said, that is something i don't mind.

I have said that twice in my previous reply. Since i dont really know/care about her armor value i will leave that up to people that have more knowledge of that.

 

 

Did you even read Alex Conner's suggestions?  Alex has sad that the Coni needs more HP, 18lbers removed, 42lb carrondes added, and speed historically relative to the other ships.  Which is exactly what I am asking for.  I don't know how fast the Constitution is in the current patch.  In the previous patch Alex Conner said the speed was not correct.  Maturin said the speed was not correct when compared to relative game speed.  Are you going to argue with them?  Again, the Constitution is a UNITED STATES CLASS SUPERFRIGATE.

 

 

Ragnar, where are the Super Powers?  Point them out.  And stop with the nationalistic BS.  I am not nationalistic.  Accusing me that means you don't know me at all.

 

Crankey, the DISCUSSION IS HERE.  How many times do I have to state this?  We don't need more discussion threads on it.  As for further investigation.  A lot of people have been investigating.  I don't seem to ever remember you involved.  So just because you have never been involved doesn't mean we have to start over.  Alex Conner has been involved this entire time and he and I seem to agree, maybe not on every last detail, but in essence.

 

In the game she never carries a full spardeck of any guns, though. Or am I missing the point of this discussion?

 

Right. We are about to get a 4th Rate SoL (Ingermanland) with a complement of 350 men. That's 100 less than Connie. Chew on that for a while.

The Coni carrying 24 18lb guns is too heavy. I am not the only one saying this nor was I the first. Since we cant split a deck between 12lb and 18lb guns, then it should go with the lowest caliber. And remember, it only carried them on loan for a short period. It did not carry guns that heavy in any deployments up to 1820. And if people really want the Coni to keep 18lb guns, then we can do that, that isn't the major point. The major point is HP needs a buff, speed needs to be relative to other ships, and it needs 42lb carronades.  I tried to compromise on one point and people don't like it.  

 

Few people want to compromise, meaning no one will ever get anywhere which means this discussion is a waste.

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Slightly relevant note:

 

After the patch what you say about connie being weak may be more true than before. I haven't checked thoroughly enough yet, but Eric Shun found my fir connie very squishy. My longs could not keep up with his, prolly, carrofrig.  This is a change, I think, I've sailed a lot of fir ships the last few weeks and I suspect fir has been made weaker. 

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I posted my poll and any response to this thread before I knew there was a patch.  If I had known there was a patch, I would have waited until after we had done more testing.

 

Again, as I stated,

 

 

Few people want to compromise, meaning no one will ever get anywhere which means this discussion is a waste.

 

 

I mean if the Victory sucked balls and was not represented historically or faithfully, the Brits would be up in arms and I would support them.  To an extent, it isn't faithfully represented because the Santi is too fast, and I have been saying for months and months that the Santi is too fast and is not good for the Victory and should change.  Many people don't want to concede that with the Coni even though they are ignorant.  Why can't people compromise?  If people don't want to compromise, I can stop pushing for the Santi to get a slower speed, because there is no point and it is all a waste of discussion.

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Did you even read Alex Conner's suggestions?  Alex has sad that the Coni needs more HP, 18lbers removed, 42lb carrondes added, and speed historically relative to the other ships.  Which is exactly what I am asking for.  I don't know how fast the Constitution is in the current patch.  In the previous patch Alex Conner said the speed was not correct.  Maturin said the speed was not correct when compared to relative game speed.  Are you going to argue with them?  Again, the Constitution is a UNITED STATES CLASS SUPERFRIGATE.

 

 

Ragnar, where are the Super Powers?  Point them out.  And stop with the nationalistic BS.  I am not nationalistic.  Accusing me that means you don't know me at all.

 

Crankey, the DISCUSSION IS HERE.  How many times do I have to state this?  We don't need more discussion threads on it.  As for further investigation.  A lot of people have been investigating.  I don't seem to ever remember you involved.  So just because you have never been involved doesn't mean we have to start over.  Alex Conner has been involved this entire time and he and I seem to agree, maybe not on every last detail, but in essence.

 

The Coni carrying 24 18lb guns is too heavy. I am not the only one saying this nor was I the first. Since we cant split a deck between 12lb and 18lb guns, then it should go with the lowest caliber. And remember, it only carried them on loan for a short period. It did not carry guns that heavy in any deployments up to 1820. And if people really want the Coni to keep 18lb guns, then we can do that, that isn't the major point. The major point is HP needs a buff, speed needs to be relative to other ships, and it needs 42lb carronades.  I tried to compromise on one point and people don't like it.  

 

Few people want to compromise, meaning no one will ever get anywhere which means this discussion is a waste.

Il tell you what, if you can show me a single place where the connie carried 42lb carronades, then it can get them, it historically carried 18lb guns(while only for a sort period of time) so i think that is fine, however it never ever, not once, not even for a second carried any(not even 1) 42 lb carronade... and how is the 42lb carronade not heavier than 18 lb guns? iirc a carronade is about half the weight of a medium of the same size so a 42 lb carronade would be half the weight of a 42 lb medium.... i dont think an 18 lb is heavier than half of a 42 lb carronade(i might be wrong on the carronade being half the weight of a medium of same caliber(roughly) i read it somewhere but cant remember where)

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Il tell you what, if you can show me a single place where the connie carried 42lb carronades, then it can get them, it historically carried 18lb guns(while only for a sort period of time) so i think that is fine, however it never ever, not once, not even for a second carried any(not even 1) 42 lb carronade... and how is the 42lb carronade not heavier than 18 lb guns? iirc a carronade is about half the weight of a medium of the same size so a 42 lb carronade would be half the weight of a 42 lb medium.... i dont think an 18 lb is heavier than half of a 42 lb carronade(i might be wrong on the carronade being half the weight of a medium of same caliber(roughly) i read it somewhere but cant remember where)

 

 

Are you not paying attention?  The CLASS, we have SHIP CLASSES, carried 42lb carronades.  Just like we have the Bellona Class.  We have the United States Class.  We have the Leda Class, we have the Victory Class.  Isn't this what we have been pushing the entire time, to have classes and not specific ships?  The Coni never carried a full deck of 18lbers.  It never carried 24 18lb longs.  State where it did so.  Point out where there were multiple Constitutions in history.  We have classes, not ships.

 

 

And again, no one wants to compromise.  Yep.  Stubborn I won't budge or compromise or willing to work towards an agreement people.  You don't want the Coni to have Super Powers?  Well, then why not make it weaker in one aspect like I suggested?  I am willing to make it weaker on aspects, so to accuse me of wanting to make it have super powers is wrong.

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And again, take up the armament with Alex Conner.  Who here has the expertise to dispute with him on it?  I am done with it, I am pretty sure he is the one who I saw suggested it originally a few weeks or months ago and I picked it up as a compromise.  I have laid my position out on it pretty clear in my opinion and all I do is keep repeating myself.

 

The class and Coni never carried 24 18lb long guns like in game.  The Coni only had them for a short time and were overgunned and removed.  It never saw significant action besides capturing merchants with them.

The class carried 42lb carronades.

12lb longs is a compromise for game terms.

There was never more than 1 Coni and we have ship classes.

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Careful Prater. If Connie gets United States' carronades, she might get her speed as well. :P

 

Although certainly all the superfrigates could have carried them.

 

 

 

 

Anyways, is anyone actually having a conversation on using cost to control a historically fast and tough Constitution? Certainly an expense of 1.5 Bellonas would not restrict the ship to the powergamers and large societies, agreed? On the other hand, it would force societies to choose between being dominant in the OW frigate game or in port battles.

 

We should also bear in mind that many people will come to Naval Action with the express dream of sailing such a famous ship. They might not want it placed months out of their reach. So an alternate path to Connies could be admiralty missions for solo players, structured in such a way as to prevent societies from farming them.

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Are you not paying attention?  The CLASS, we have SHIP CLASSES, carried 42lb carronades.  Just like we have the Bellona Class.  We have the United States Class.  We have the Leda Class, we have the Victory Class.  Isn't this what we have been pushing the entire time, to have classes and not specific ships?  The Coni never carried a full deck of 18lbers.  It never carried 24 18lb longs.  State where it did so.  Point out where there were multiple Constitutions in history.  We have classes, not ships.

 

 

And again, no one wants to compromise.  Yep.  Stubborn I won't budge or compromise or willing to work towards an agreement people.  You don't want the Coni to have Super Powers?  Well, then why not make it weaker in one aspect like I suggested?  I am willing to make it weaker on aspects, so to accuse me of wanting to make it have super powers is wrong.

sure we do have classes, but we also got specific ships, im pretty sure there was only one constitution... please show me if we had more... also we got the surprise, pretty sure she isnt a class of ship but rather a specific ship, same goes for the mercury, im also pretty sure victory was a specific ship, do i need to go on or?

 

il be honest, apart from the armour, the connie was fine last patch, the armour might have needed a slight buff, but other than that in my opinion it was fine, and sure i can deal with it getting 12 pound cannons however i will not accept having it carry anything it did not historically. again, i ask you, kindly, to do what you should and be a man and go to the thing called google, go look up the arnement of this ship we are discussing(called the constitution) and tell me it used 42 pound carronades, sir you will find that it did not, maybe her sister ships did, but she did not. if we introduce her sister ships, they should have their specific arnement as well then, and not be nerfed because the connie didnt have those guns and vice versa.

 

edit:  if you want to have the class, she is to be named USS united states, acording to the class so it loses the name uss constitution

 

edit2: just so you know, been reading this from the start...

Edited by OlavDeng2
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Olav, what the hell.  You come in with smugness into something you've looked at for 10 minutes on google when we have been looking at this for months.  Again, TAKE IT UP WITH ALEX CONNER, WHO HAS EXPERTISE, UNLIKE YOU.  And I have looked up the armament, many times, and done plenty of research on it, so cut the crap out.

 

I am pretty sure we have multiple Constitutions in game right now when we should only have one.

 

TDA is fine with calling it the United States Class.  We have pushed for that in the past and in all our internal discussion or messages we call it that.  We have a class, not a specific ship.  How many Conis do you think are in game right now?  How can we have multiple USS Constitutions?

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Well, clearly we are not on the same page.

 

when a topic starts with:

Please rename the ship you call the Constitution. This ship does not reflect the characteristic of the actual ship it is supposes to be based on.

 

That clearly doesn't implicate you are lobbying for a ship class, you are lobbying for a specific ship. That was my attitude in this topic.

Never was the knowledge of Alex Conner being doubted, yet simply coming from different points of views.

 

With that said, im out.

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Well, clearly we are not on the same page.

 

when a topic starts with:

Please rename the ship you call the Constitution. This ship does not reflect the characteristic of the actual ship it is supposes to be based on.

 

That clearly doesn't implicate you are lobbying for a ship class, you are lobbying for a specific ship. That was my attitude in this topic.

Never was the knowledge of Alex Conner being doubted, yet simply coming from different points of views.

 

With that said, im out.

 

This isn't my thread.  And the point isn't just the Constitution.  If it was called United States Class, Mac would have lobbied to change it to something else.  We are going off what we have in game right now.  Anyway, that isn't the title anymore.  My discussion joined this after the thread was renamed.

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According to K-H Marquardt (Anatomy of the Ship Constitution, p. 29), Conny had 16 32-pounder carronades on the quarterdeck and 6 32-pounder carronades on the forecastle in 1812.

The 42-pounder carronades which had replaced the 12-pounder guns proved to be too heavy and Isaac Hull had them substituted with the smaller carronades when he took command in 1810.

 

Assuming we have the Conny of 1812 ingame, then 32-pounder carronades would be the way to go, imo.

Edited by Malachi
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According to K-H Marquardt (Anatomy of the Ship Constitution, p. 29), Conny had 16 32-pounder carronades on the quarterdeck and 6 32-pounder carronades on the forecastle in 1812.

The 42-pounder carronades which had replaced the 12-pounder guns proved to be too heavy and Isaac Hull had them substituted with the smaller carronades when he took command in 1810.

No she never carried 42pdr carronades, but weight was not the limitation, simply availability at the time or captain's choice. A 42pdr carronade weighed less than even a 8' 12pdr cannon. In fact even the 12pdrs were found to be excessive, which is why she and her sisters ended up with carronades on their spar decks.

Here is the history of Constitution's armament, although I think overall class armament speaks more to our concerns, which is design limitations, rather than the vagary of supply and captains' choices that leads to various armaments at various points in time:

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/constitution-resources/the-captain-speaks/the-guns-of-constitution/

weights, approximate:

8' 18pdr - 4700 pds

8' 12pdr - 4100 pds

42pdr carronade - 2500 pds (weight of British 42pdr carronade)

32pdr carronade - 2000 pds

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According to K-H Marquardt (Anatomy of the Ship Constitution, p. 29), Conny had 16 32-pounder carronades on the quarterdeck and 6 32-pounder carronades on the forecastle in 1812.

The 42-pounder carronades which had replaced the 12-pounder guns proved to be too heavy and Isaac Hull had them substituted with the smaller carronades when he took command in 1810.

 

Assuming we have the Conny of 1812 ingame, then 32-pounder carronades would be the way to go, imo.

 

2/3 of the United States Class Frigates carried 42lb carronades.

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Did you even read Alex Conner's suggestions?  Alex has sad that the Coni needs more HP, 18lbers removed, 42lb carrondes added, and speed historically relative to the other ships.  Which is exactly what I am asking for.  I don't know how fast the Constitution is in the current patch.  In the previous patch Alex Conner said the speed was not correct.  Maturin said the speed was not correct when compared to relative game speed.  Are you going to argue with them?  Again, the Constitution is a UNITED STATES CLASS SUPERFRIGATE.

 

 

Ragnar, where are the Super Powers?  Point them out.  And stop with the nationalistic BS.  I am not nationalistic.  Accusing me that means you don't know me at all.

 

Crankey, the DISCUSSION IS HERE.  How many times do I have to state this?  We don't need more discussion threads on it.  As for further investigation.  A lot of people have been investigating.  I don't seem to ever remember you involved.  So just because you have never been involved doesn't mean we have to start over.  Alex Conner has been involved this entire time and he and I seem to agree, maybe not on every last detail, but in essence.

 

The Coni carrying 24 18lb guns is too heavy. I am not the only one saying this nor was I the first. Since we cant split a deck between 12lb and 18lb guns, then it should go with the lowest caliber. And remember, it only carried them on loan for a short period. It did not carry guns that heavy in any deployments up to 1820. And if people really want the Coni to keep 18lb guns, then we can do that, that isn't the major point. The major point is HP needs a buff, speed needs to be relative to other ships, and it needs 42lb carronades.  I tried to compromise on one point and people don't like it.  

 

Few people want to compromise, meaning no one will ever get anywhere which means this discussion is a waste.

 

WELL MR PRATER, as you so kindly highlighted my reply. I suggested you moved en-masse this entire discussion to be part of your poll thread, not start a new one so pull in your horns. New forum users seeing your poll should also be able to easily review this discussion post so why do you resist putting the two together.

 

I am not you nor am I Alex Conner are you then saying only your two voices count ??, I am entitled to add my own opinions and knowledge to any thread on this forum. I will also continue to do so in an unbiased and calm matter no matter the subject matter nor the OP's or OP's supporters rantings against me..

 

You are also implying that because I have not joined the discussion previously I should butt out of this one ?? Perhaps because I won't agree with you. Well that is exactly why this post is in the discussion area.

 

I did mention that I would with-hold comment until I had looked into the subject rather than making a blanket un-informed post, so I don't even see where your animosity toward my post is coming from.

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Perhaps it is because we have already discussed this to death in several other topics on these forums. TDA brought forth a document with well documented research that dozens of hours were spent on. And you throw it and all the other discussion on this topic out the window in 1 sentence.

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I give up.  Perhaps English isn't your first language, where the hell in my reply do I confound and sink this whole discussion in a single sentence ? 

 

 

More to the point, if a single sentence is sufficient to scupper your view on your Razee, cough cough I mean Super Frigate, then your argument must be extremely weak for the changes you are requesting...

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Maybe you should reread what you wrote:
 

 

 

Your poll options imho should be for the historical facts to be investigated further, rather than a blanket statement that presupposes that the current Constitution is grossly inaccurate

 

 

We have already done this.  The Community has already done this.  Just because you haven't taken part up until this point doesn't mean we have to start over.

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I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

1. Does constitution need a buff as currently she is in a very unhappy place? Yes

2. Do its plans and written historical evidence suggest she should be behaving in certain way and have certain characteristics? Yes

3. Is it a nationalistic matter? No

 

No one wants to make her a supership with stars and stripes skin that plays "Hail to the chief" everytime it joins an instance.

 

It is a very long ship, it is a relatively narrow with straight hull - I would say should be fast and her turning should be nothing to write about at best.
She used the most difficult wood to work, which is also the strongest available for her scantlings - Should be expensive and have relatively better "armour" than what would be expected from her.

I arrived to these conclusions just by using logic and yet, we have historical evidence that fully supports this.

 

In regards to armament, there are so many wrongly armed ships that I don't care to be honest. Trinc, surprise, mercury and my personal winner Frigate. 

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I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

1. Does constitution need a buff as currently she is in a very unhappy place? Yes

2. Do its plans and written historical evidence suggest she should be behaving in certain way and have certain characteristics? Yes

3. Is it a nationalistic matter? No

 

No one wants to make her a supership with stars and stripes skin that plays "Hail to the chief" everytime it joins an instance.

 

It is a very long ship, it is a relatively narrow with straight hull - I would say should be fast and her turning should be nothing to write about at best.

She used the most difficult wood to work, which is also the strongest available for her scantlings - Should be expensive and have relatively better "armour" than what would be expected from her.

I arrived to these conclusions just by using logic and yet, we have historical evidence that fully supports this.

 

In regards to armament, there are so many wrongly armed ships that I don't care to be honest. Trinc, surprise, mercury and my personal winner Frigate. 

 

+1 - I think you win the internet today! The heated shot is flying thick in this thread! 

 

I think issues brought up here can apply to many/all of the ships in game. Really some questions to answer before starting the debate:

 

1. Are we representing ship "classes" in game or individual ships? 

 

(Based on reading this thread there appears to be no consensus on this point)

 

2. Are we sticking to historical armament that a ship/class can be verified as carrying?

 

3. Does the game account for over gunned ships?

 

Your last line says it all: some ships have less than historical broadside weight and some have more. However I am confident that the devs will iron these things out, especially with the introduction of more ships to fill in gaps, etc. :)

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Yes, I agree marecek05

 

The whole point about lowering the deck to 12lbers is that it is a compromise that makes the ship weaker in one regard and hopefully people are more willing to accept strengthening it in other places if we make it weaker on some points.  And further more, it doesn't break the historical ship, because the historical ship never carried 24 18lb long guns.  If Naval Action allowed different types of guns per deck I would prefer the combination of 18 and 12 lbers, but it doesn't, and since 24 18lb longs are too many, I propose to limit it to 12lbers.

 

Also, Constitution and United States are made from the same design.  If the United States carried 42lb carronades, so could the Constitution.

 

And I agree, all ships should have historical armaments as much as possible according to game terms.

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I don't have any suggested speed because of the new patch.  A Live Oak Connie, Frigate, or Trinc without speed mods should be faster than a Fir Bellona, Pavel or Santi without speed mods.  Heck, I'd even say maybe they should be faster than the Bellona and Pavel unless they have the max speed buff and always faster than the Santi no matter what.

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You say that live oak connie sucks, it should be faster (even stronger?)

You are specific with accompanying gun nerf and I'd like you to be more specific with at what speed you would be happy with it.

When talking about a live oak Connie, speed is a far more important balance parameter than the top deck guns, I presume.

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