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In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.

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wind changes :

.wind in battle changes too fast atm,  and constant on the move perhaps a interval of same wind for a little time would express reality and then moves back to same wind as before (RNG)

.heel: slow speed heel is little but at full speed, the heel  is not that much so the heel is good>  also high masted ships must heel more than short masted ships and small ships needs more heel in the turning when going with the wind

.leeway (side force) and ship differences: good

general turn rates (using rudder or yards or both): the yards for the big ships is actually a little to slow, sometimes the wind is helping the yards to turn so that can do some loving ,for the smaller ships it is good

small ships turn to fast , and big ships seems not to turn: so i would like to see -10% for the small ships and +10 %( for the first rates and 2 rate  a buff)  (4 and 5 are good)( 6 and 7 need a nerf)

.speed curves and ship difference: fully loaded ships are still  going to fast   fully loaded ships with repairs (rum hull and rig do not do that much of speed atm, that needs a nerf if you are loaded with that to comparing with normal cargo-carrying vessels [i still believe a hold size for repairs and rum is needed to overcome a fully staged loaded warship ](EVE)

.tacking time: can be reduced by 3 seconds(   or ) (ping time  reducing the time by 1.5 seconds shorter )

downwind turning time for the big ships it is a bit on the slow side that can be some more differences, like picking up speed and, or, a faster turn for different ships but it can use a little buff difference on the big ships.

 

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-all this above is just a feeling of the ships but what i really like is the difference in the  use of the ship .

-also, like to see more types of guns to make the ships more usable for different types of play( howitser types, bronze ect. and pound difference types like french ,dutch or brit guns and may other specific guns )

-more kinds of ammo load like exploding shells useable in types of guns(burn)

-and that " thing' like Otto said (not taking that word in my mouth again)

-only sailing Nation dedicated known ship plan (a Ingerman was not known to the Chinese to sail for example)

-under mod delay time sorry for delay vissibility

 

 

Edited by Thonys
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Wind: Still to fast for large battles imho

Connie: needs a buff to turn rate. 3.00 or so. She has no chance in fighting wasas, wappens and aggies with current turn rate.

Trinco:  as someone that loves the ship I think the heel is ok compared to what other people think. Otherwise the trinco could become overpowered. She has only 2 weaknesses. No stern chasers(her high base speed is good to balance that) and heel. Maybe a slight decrease to heel but nothing to much or she will be overpowered.

Endy: Very well balanced ship. Overpowered sailor but weak masts and sail hp make up for that.

Bellepoule: Overpowered Brawler but is only good at that so she is also good. 

Wasa: People here complain about her and I don't know why to be honest. Bellona is faster and is better in most aspects. Maybe a turn rate nerf. She is a 3rd rate and so far she is well balanced compared to bellona. Just cause people cant kill her with a 5th rate doesn't make her op. Buffing mast hp to mids and tops could make wasa problem go away. Leave thickness for now and lets test HP buffs only. 

 

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12 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Wind: Still to fast for large battles imho

Connie: needs a buff to turn rate. 3.00 or so. She has no chance in fighting wasas, wappens and aggies with current turn rate.

Trinco:  as someone that loves the ship I think the heel is ok compared to what other people think. Otherwise the trinco could become overpowered. She has only 2 weaknesses. No stern chasers(her high base speed is good to balance that) and heel. Maybe a slight decrease to heel but nothing to much or she will be overpowered.

Endy: Very well balanced ship. Overpowered sailor but weak masts and sail hp make up for that.

Bellepoule: Overpowered Brawler but is only good at that so she is also good. 

Wasa: People here complain about her and I don't know why to be honest. Bellona is faster and is better in most aspects. Maybe a turn rate nerf. She is a 3rd rate and so far she is well balanced compared to bellona. Just cause people cant kill her with a 5th rate doesn't make her op. Buffing mast hp to mids and tops could make wasa problem go away. Leave thickness for now and lets test HP buffs only. 

 

BR is too low for a wasa. 250 BR for Wasa or 450BR for Bellon? Wasa it is. Choice is too easy.

Same with 2nd or 1st rates. 1sts are too OP(thickness)

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1 hour ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Ships differences...?!

What matters in NA is drastic players differences, the one that are real experts (PVP'ers), the average ones (RVR'ers) and the biginners.

The experts are mostly looking for PVP rewards, they're ready to spend hundreds of hours in NA

While biginners are looking for fun but their interest is fragile.

Issue: PVP'ers affect the player population

Solution:

==> Include a "player skill rank" that can be attached to his name (everyone can see it in OW or in Battles).

==> "Player skill rank" is the addition of kills/boardings

==> The higher the rank the higher the PVP rewards when killed. 

  • Biginners will result being lower interest PVP targets.
  • Experts will result being the hunted ones, it must be risky to be part of the NA elite players ("Cheaters" will have to assume their risky rank).
  • This "player skill rank" would progressively open access to special books as well as 1 life ship modules (not tradable).

or, even simpler: introduce a progressive PVP rank (calculated by means of the number of PVP marks gained through combat) and visible in OS, that enters into the calculations of the numbers of the PVP marks that are awarded in case you sink the player.

I would start at rank O ("hopeless carebear" or "Victor" rank)  - and then when someone kills me he gets just 1 PVP mark no matter which ship I am sailing sail, but - after having gained 20 PVP marks in combat I become rank 1 ("noob") - and then when someone sinks me gets 2 PVP marks, no matter which ship I sail  ... and so on up to the rank "wtfuberpwnzrplayer" that - after 1000 marks - gets the one that is able to sink me 20 marks for  each sinking.

Of course number can be different, but the concept is there.

PS: a more sophisticated version could be a formula that takes the rank of the sunk player and the rank of the winning one and modulates the rewards in a way that a lower ranked player will earn more PVP marks if he succeeds in sinking a higher rank player, while if a higher rank player sinks a lower rank player, then he gets less PVP marks.

Edited by victor

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4 minutes ago, victor said:

(...)

Or simply remove names from OW ships - "Great Britain/Denmark-Norge/Sverige/Dutch/Espana (add rest of nations) player sailing on ship A". done

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Just now, Batman said:

Or simply remove names from OW ships - "Great Britain/Denmark-Norge/Sverige/Dutch/Espana (add rest of nations) player sailing on ship A". done

Mind to elaborate?

Edited by victor

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18 minutes ago, rediii said:

BR is too low for a wasa. 250 BR for Wasa or 450BR for Bellon? Wasa it is. Choice is too easy.

Same with 2nd or 1st rates. 1sts are too OP(thickness)

i know but i think admin is asking for sailing not really stats atm. Wasa isnt op sailing wise. Br should be 350 or 380

Edit: and I simply didnt think of br. As someone that doesnt PB alot I dont really think about br alot.

Edited by HachiRoku
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3 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements

What is the goal?! Good sense of realism, ergo large ships feeling heavy etc.? All ships handling well? Balancing in terms of competetive play/fairness? Something else?

If you just ask people like you did you'll only get subjective opinions, people telling you to buff their favourite ships etc. Many went offtopic already discussing about BR, thickness, Mast HP etc.

Just saying.

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I dreamt last night that the @admin gave me the carro Wappen.

:D 

On a serious note to the Wasa:

It is a shallow draft ship (as most Swedish designs), shallow draft means less displacement, less displacement means higher speed.
Going with that logic, shallow draft means less weight, hvy cannons leave then even less weight for armor, means should be a glass cannon.
Shallow draft means also high COM, high COM means lot of heel, so being badly armored and heeling alot could be the logical nerv for the Wasa.

Edited by sveno
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Also might want to nerf thickness of 4th - 1st rates by at least 15%

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ad1. Current wind change in battle makes it more arcade. It promotes engagements. There are far less "running-chasing" fights. In my opinion it promotes more interesting PvP encounters.

On the other hand fighting for wind is not that important any more, as the wind changes randomly. There's less strategy in the game, more tactics.

Probably making wind changes less extreme could keep the balance of having meaningful strategies, in the same time promoting fights...

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6 minutes ago, Liq said:

Also might want to nerf thickness of 4th - 1st rates by at least 15%

In my opinion 15% nerf is a bit  too much. Nerfing by 5%, and then nerfing thickness upgrades, so that you can't stack them to more than 7%, would do the trick in my opinion. 

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14 minutes ago, Liq said:

Also might want to nerf thickness of 4th - 1st rates by at least 15%

or nerf penetration in guns (especially longs)

the benefit of this we will get closer to each other :)

or do both :))

sorry for delay Mods restriction

Edited by Thonys

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4 minutes ago, vazco said:

In my opinion 15% nerf is a bit  too much. Nerfing by 5%, and then nerfing thickness upgrades, so that you can't stack them to more than 7%, would do the trick in my opinion. 

Gap between 1st and 2nd is too big thicknesswise aswell. Nerf thickness and lower the thicknessgap

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26 minutes ago, victor said:

or, even simpler: introduce a progressive PVP rank (calculated by means of the number of PVP marks gained through combat) and visible in OS, that enters into the calculations of the numbers of the PVP marks that are awarded in case you sink the player.

I would start at rank O ("hopeless carebear" or "Victor" rank)  - and then when someone kills me he gets just 1 PVP mark no matter which ship I am sailing sail, but - after having gained 20 PVP marks in combat I become rank 1 ("noob") - and then when someone sinks me gets 2 PVP marks, no matter which ship I sail  ... and so on up to the rank "wtfuberpwnzrplayer" that - after 1000 marks - gets the one that is able to sink me 20 marks for  each sinking.

Of course number can be different, but the concept is there.

PS: a more sophisticated version could be a formula that takes the rank of the sunk player and the rank of the winning one and modulates the rewards in a way that a lower ranked player will earn more PVP marks if he succeeds in sinking a higher rank player, while if a higher rank player sinks a lower rank player, then he gets less PVP marks.

A system like this could be exploited. For this to work, you would have to get  PvP marks for sinking based on a mix of two factors:

  • player experience (like you propose)
  • number of fights that this player didn't sink in until now

A most fair system would be to use a renown system - once you die, your renown is reset eg. to a base of your rank. When you sink other people who give you PvP marks, your renown increases in a linear relation to rewards you get. Once someone sinks you, he gets PvP reward based on your renown at that time.

This would make skilled players fight each other, in the same time avoid exploits of farming each others eg. in duels.

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13 minutes ago, sveno said:


@admin

 

On a serious note to the Wasa:

It is a shallow draft ship (as most Swedish designs), shallow draft means less displacement, less displacement means higher speed.
Going with that logic, shallow draft means less weight, hvy cannons leave then even less weight for armor, means should be a glass cannon.
Shallow draft means also high COM, high COM means lot of heel, so being badly armored and heeling alot could be the logical nerv for the Wasa.

Historically, none of that applied to the Wasa/Gustaph Adolphs. They stood their ground against russian three-deckers and 74s in the war of 1788/89 and were able to take a lot of punishment. They also were considered as very stiff ships, able to fly a lot of canvas with little heeling. That being said, taking the weights of the swedish 36s/24s into account, the in-game armament should be 32s/18s.

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9 minutes ago, vazco said:

A system like this could be exploited. For this to work, you would have to get  PvP marks for sinking based on a mix of two factors:

  • player experience (like you propose)
  • number of fights that this player didn't sink in until now

A most fair system would be to use a renown system - once you die, your renown is reset eg. to a base of your rank. When you sink other people who give you PvP marks, your renown increases in a linear relation to rewards you get. Once someone sinks you, he gets PvP reward based on your renown at that time.

This would make skilled players fight each other, in the same time avoid exploits of farming each others eg. in duels.

overall good idea.

but what about players who have been in the fight for doing tagging and shooting sail ect.. there should be a good reward system implemented also

a system with dedicated rewards like:  scout,  and tagger, assist, mast shooter, hauler vs warship , 1 vs 1 , ...rewards.. for example [  rewards what accumulate the final reward for doing battle ]

sorry for delay Mods vissibility

Edited by Thonys

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

2. Heel:

Most ships heel a lot, specially frigates like Belle Poule, renomee. Pavel is a machine of having leaks because of heel.

4. Turnrates:

Ship of the line needs a buff on turnrate to counter better frigates.  Ocean turnrate is a pain, so low compared to Santisima.

 

 

 

 

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Windchange in PBs is still too much. A 90° rotation always leads to one of the following:

1) Two fleets are approaching at beam reach. Since we have a 5 minute join timer, the first windturn will occur after 10 minutes of sailing. At this point theres a 50/50 chance for either of the attacker or the defender getting full wind control
=> totally RNG based mechanic, if you have the wind into your face as attcker you might aswell leave here since the defender probably captures all 3 circles

2) The attcker starts with full wind advantage. He will approach the first circle fast, the defender will send one ship downwind to capture 2 circles. Before the fleets clash though, the first wind change will occur. Now theres a 100% chance for the attacker to lose its advantage and initiate the fight at beam reach.
=> basically no RNG here, but the wind change takes the initiative from the attacker by default

 

To make windchanges less decisive for fleet engagements it needs to be less drastic and more predictable. I suggest to

1) slow it down to 45° every 10 minutes instead of 90° every 15 minutes. You can not lose the wind advantage then if you fought for it.

2) add an indicator where the wind will change next time (i think experienced sailors had a good feeling about wind changes back then, right?). This involves further planning and takes RNG wind advantage gifts out of the game.

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21 minutes ago, Havelock said:

Now theres a 100% chance for the attacker to lose its advantage and initiate the fight at beam reach.

Methinks one could still keep it while the wind turns. So 100% is pretty much. Generally I agree and think the suggested changes are pretty smart (just counting peas as Greg Mendel did o.O)

Edited by Palatinose
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4 hours ago, Otto Kohl said:

Please look into Bucentaur's stern. There is something wrong with its stern hp. It feels really tanky and not taking damage properly. 

Maybe the guy had that new stern armor upgrade. This upgrade buff the armor at more than 100 thickness, depending on the ship.

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24 minutes ago, Thonys said:

overall good idea.

but what about players who have been in the fight for doing tagging and shooting sail ect.. there should be a good reward system implemented also

a system with dedicated rewards like:  scout,  and tagger, assist, mast shooter, hauler vs warship , 1 vs 1 , ...rewards.. for example [  rewards what accumulate the final reward for doing battle ]

sorry for delay Mods vissibility

Any formula could word, but the important thing is that the system should give no incentive for skilled PVPer to tag players with a very low PVP rank but shall induce players to try their luck (and skill) against higher PVP ranked players.

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4 minutes ago, Serk said:

Maybe the guy had that new stern armor upgrade. This upgrade buff the armor at more than 100 thickness, depending on the ship.

possible but still the shown damage should be applied visually. if u are able to pen, you cause damage. the upgrade you're talking about enlarges the thickness, not the hp if im correct.

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Wasa: People here complain about her and I don't know why to be honest. Bellona is faster and is better in most aspects.

Bellona is a full knot slower, except dead downwind.

Wasa should be cut down to 18s on the upper deck.

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