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In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.


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Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

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There are terrible disparities on the same br, for example Wasa and Agamemnon have the same br, and Aggie is tragic compared to Wasa.

btw. Aggie is tragic at all, compared to everything that moves

Edited by Wojtek
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Constitution - Painful to sail. It has serious trouble dueling other 4th rates in terms of maneuverability, and doesn't stand a chance vs. most 5th rates. I think it needs a buff to turning, could be rudder, yards, or a mix of both. The profile and speed are fine, it just needs help with turning. 

Indefatigable - A good ship overall, but it is completely ruined by the strangely weak rudder. The rudder health isn't different from other 5th rates, but there is something incredibly bad about the rudder placement or hitbox. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but if you ever get stern raked, the rudder breaks. It is without a doubt the worst ship I have every sailed in terms of rudder health. I realize there are mods to help buff the rudder health, but they don't fix the problem. I have tested them. I think it is just too easy to hit the rudder when stern raking, and if this were adjusted, the indefatigable could actually become a useful ship in PvP again. 
Side note: Strangely, the Agamemnon does not seem to suffer from the same weak rudder, in my experience. 

Belle Poule - Needs a small turn rate nerf, I think. It is strange that it has a turn rate on par with the surprise, even though the BP is much longer. At the moment this very high turn rate is making the BP somewhat OP against similar ships, because the ability to angle, especially with the strong armour, makes it an exceptionally powerful 5th rate. I have a feeling many other hunters will not like me for saying this, but it is needed, in my opinion.
Base turn rate for BP is 4.23 (I think it should be closer to 3.5)
Base turn rate for Surprise is 4.11

That's all for now, I may think of more later. 

 


 

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Trinc heels a bit too much I think. It can be useful but I don't know if if that's correct. 

Also, do you think that if the gun ports of some ships touch the water or are a bit submerged, we should get an effect same as leaking?

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2 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

Please look into Bucentaur's stern. There is something wrong with its stern hp. It feels really tanky and not taking damage properly. 

Yes there is something happening here. Yesterday I had a moment where I stern raked a Bucentaure with a Bellona, had 32 hits (with medium guns, using normal ball shot) I killed 60 ish crew, took off almost 2 bars of structure, and yet I didn't damage the stern armour at all. The discord actually went pretty crazy laughing, because they thought I missed every shot, until they noticed the structure and crew. My thought was maybe the balls went through the windows..? But I've never seen that before. I know its possible with grape, but it seemed odd. 

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Wind should not constantly change at it is right now (I know it's a walkaround for helping people that getting stuck in shallows due to the heavy leeway), but it's not realistic at all that the wind is changing over 90 degrees every few minutes. Make it blow from rough the same direction and change it to over not more than 90 degree over the whole battle so fighting for the wind makes sense. 

Right now every 15 minutes the wind is changing, in a first rate fleet battle it will take over ten minutes to get a upwind position only to loose it after 5 minutes again. 

Edited by Eleven
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23 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Yes there is something happening here. Yesterday I had a moment where I stern raked a Bucentaure with a Bellona, had 32 hits (with medium guns, using normal ball shot) I killed 60 ish crew, took off almost 2 bars of structure, and yet I didn't damage the stern armour at all. The discord actually went pretty crazy laughing, because they thought I missed every shot, until they noticed the structure and crew. My thought was maybe the balls went through the windows..? But I've never seen that before. I know its possible with grape, but it seemed odd. 

It happened to me also with other ships and in NPC combats: internal structure goes down but stern armor is intact

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20 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

About rudder, I guess you forgot about mercuries. They have just as much paper rudders as Indefs. Maybe Santis and L'Oceans should have more tanky rudders, as Victories don't really suffer much from it. 

Regarding Belle Poule, It is a bit longer, but surprise is in the same time wider and has better profile over BP. The ship doesn't seem overpowered, it has small guns and suffers from lack of bow chasers. It is just harder to kill it while it turns around crazy, but it's still easy to destroy its masts/sails and then kill. Have you seen many players use it? I know just a few fetishists :)

The turning is completely stupid on the BP at the moment. 4.23 base. Now compare to every other frigate. The only 5th rates that turn better are the Renommee and Cerberus. It feels like this was a mistake when entering the speeds. If I was to assign a turn rating for the BP going by the trend of length, it should be 3.23, instead of the current. That makes a big difference. 

Also, no the surprise is not wider. BP has 14 guns on the bottom deck, only the heavy 5th rates can match that. Yes they are 12 lb, but we all know how great the DPS on 12's is. Frigate, P-Frig, LGV, Surprise, L'Hermione are all shorter, but for some reason, BP turns better. 

The only reason you don't see them everywhere, is people haven't figured out it is OP yet. The lack of bow chasers are a problem, yes, but the turning should still be tuned. 

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- 1 -
I really liked the subtle wind changes in portbattles we had before the advanced sailing patches were implemented.
Also if it was recently nerved from 130 to 90 degress, it still seems very random making formation sailing close to impossible.
Furthermore, fighting for the wind has became like the minigame we have - a pure thing of chance.

- 2 -
Heel is pretty nicely implemented, tho some ships (shallow ships with high masts) i would expect to heel a lot  more.
Would be interesting to experience different wind strengths, making some ships need to go 80% or lower to not get turned over (or saildamage?).

- 3 -
Leeway seems generally a bit strong, on the other side it should never reach 0% with sails down - the hull, esp. on tall ships generates a good % of leeway drag.
Maybe we could have an anker to stay on spot? Could be like the brace function, with preptime and cooldown? That could also be a logical nerv for the mortars, as they need time to anker to properly shoot.

- 4 -
Turnrates are generally believable and feeling good. The only thing bugging me is the utterly bad performance of ships like the Essex, im pretty sure that this ship could tack without getting in minus speed IRL. Maybe review those ships, proper tacking sail management might not be feasable to animate in the game, but should be simulated.

- 5 -
Speed- / windcurves seems pretty good, with one exception popping into my mind: the Victory - should be able to outsail the other 1sts upwind.

- 6 -
Taking time for most ships feels ok, with the exception of the Essex.

- 7 -
Downwind turning seems ok to me, no specific observations there.

Edited by sveno
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Buffs:

- Victory upwind sailing performance.
- Essex taking speed.
- Wasa BR (the other ships should be real alternative in PB's).

Debuffs:

- Thickness of ships 4th rate and higher.
- All thickness mods, please also no stacking.
- Please no stacking on masts thickness mods, maybe debuff their stats to, might need to tune the mastpen accordingly (smaller hitboxes?).
- Wasa thickness and maybe reduce crew # to debuff their broadside DPS somewhat (32pdr is historical).
- I think the leaks are bit much right now, generally, fights shouldn't be over after a single broadside (takes skill yes, but anyway).

Edited by sveno
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Ships differences...?!

What matters in NA is drastic players differences, the one that are real experts (PVP'ers), the average ones (RVR'ers) and the biginners.

The experts are mostly looking for PVP rewards, they're ready to spend hundreds of hours in NA

While biginners are looking for fun but their interest is fragile.

Issue: PVP'ers affect the player population

Solution:

==> Include a "player skill rank" that can be attached to his name (everyone can see it in OW or in Battles).

==> "Player skill rank" is the addition of kills/boardings

==> The higher the rank the higher the PVP rewards when killed. 

  • Biginners will result being lower interest PVP targets.
  • Experts will result being the hunted ones, it must be risky to be part of the NA elite players ("Cheaters" will have to assume their risky rank).
  • This "player skill rank" would progressively open access to special books as well as 1 life ship modules (not tradable).
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wind changes :

.wind in battle changes too fast atm,  and constant on the move perhaps a interval of same wind for a little time would express reality and then moves back to same wind as before (RNG)

.heel: slow speed heel is little but at full speed, the heel  is not that much so the heel is good>  also high masted ships must heel more than short masted ships and small ships needs more heel in the turning when going with the wind

.leeway (side force) and ship differences: good

general turn rates (using rudder or yards or both): the yards for the big ships is actually a little to slow, sometimes the wind is helping the yards to turn so that can do some loving ,for the smaller ships it is good

small ships turn to fast , and big ships seems not to turn: so i would like to see -10% for the small ships and +10 %( for the first rates and 2 rate  a buff)  (4 and 5 are good)( 6 and 7 need a nerf)

.speed curves and ship difference: fully loaded ships are still  going to fast   fully loaded ships with repairs (rum hull and rig do not do that much of speed atm, that needs a nerf if you are loaded with that to comparing with normal cargo-carrying vessels [i still believe a hold size for repairs and rum is needed to overcome a fully staged loaded warship ](EVE)

.tacking time: can be reduced by 3 seconds(   or ) (ping time  reducing the time by 1.5 seconds shorter )

downwind turning time for the big ships it is a bit on the slow side that can be some more differences, like picking up speed and, or, a faster turn for different ships but it can use a little buff difference on the big ships.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-all this above is just a feeling of the ships but what i really like is the difference in the  use of the ship .

-also, like to see more types of guns to make the ships more usable for different types of play( howitser types, bronze ect. and pound difference types like french ,dutch or brit guns and may other specific guns )

-more kinds of ammo load like exploding shells useable in types of guns(burn)

-and that " thing' like Otto said (not taking that word in my mouth again)

-only sailing Nation dedicated known ship plan (a Ingerman was not known to the Chinese to sail for example)

-under mod delay time sorry for delay vissibility

 

 

Edited by Thonys
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Wind: Still to fast for large battles imho

Connie: needs a buff to turn rate. 3.00 or so. She has no chance in fighting wasas, wappens and aggies with current turn rate.

Trinco:  as someone that loves the ship I think the heel is ok compared to what other people think. Otherwise the trinco could become overpowered. She has only 2 weaknesses. No stern chasers(her high base speed is good to balance that) and heel. Maybe a slight decrease to heel but nothing to much or she will be overpowered.

Endy: Very well balanced ship. Overpowered sailor but weak masts and sail hp make up for that.

Bellepoule: Overpowered Brawler but is only good at that so she is also good. 

Wasa: People here complain about her and I don't know why to be honest. Bellona is faster and is better in most aspects. Maybe a turn rate nerf. She is a 3rd rate and so far she is well balanced compared to bellona. Just cause people cant kill her with a 5th rate doesn't make her op. Buffing mast hp to mids and tops could make wasa problem go away. Leave thickness for now and lets test HP buffs only. 

 

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1 hour ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Ships differences...?!

What matters in NA is drastic players differences, the one that are real experts (PVP'ers), the average ones (RVR'ers) and the biginners.

The experts are mostly looking for PVP rewards, they're ready to spend hundreds of hours in NA

While biginners are looking for fun but their interest is fragile.

Issue: PVP'ers affect the player population

Solution:

==> Include a "player skill rank" that can be attached to his name (everyone can see it in OW or in Battles).

==> "Player skill rank" is the addition of kills/boardings

==> The higher the rank the higher the PVP rewards when killed. 

  • Biginners will result being lower interest PVP targets.
  • Experts will result being the hunted ones, it must be risky to be part of the NA elite players ("Cheaters" will have to assume their risky rank).
  • This "player skill rank" would progressively open access to special books as well as 1 life ship modules (not tradable).

or, even simpler: introduce a progressive PVP rank (calculated by means of the number of PVP marks gained through combat) and visible in OS, that enters into the calculations of the numbers of the PVP marks that are awarded in case you sink the player.

I would start at rank O ("hopeless carebear" or "Victor" rank)  - and then when someone kills me he gets just 1 PVP mark no matter which ship I am sailing sail, but - after having gained 20 PVP marks in combat I become rank 1 ("noob") - and then when someone sinks me gets 2 PVP marks, no matter which ship I sail  ... and so on up to the rank "wtfuberpwnzrplayer" that - after 1000 marks - gets the one that is able to sink me 20 marks for  each sinking.

Of course number can be different, but the concept is there.

PS: a more sophisticated version could be a formula that takes the rank of the sunk player and the rank of the winning one and modulates the rewards in a way that a lower ranked player will earn more PVP marks if he succeeds in sinking a higher rank player, while if a higher rank player sinks a lower rank player, then he gets less PVP marks.

Edited by victor
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Just now, Batman said:

Or simply remove names from OW ships - "Great Britain/Denmark-Norge/Sverige/Dutch/Espana (add rest of nations) player sailing on ship A". done

Mind to elaborate?

Edited by victor
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18 minutes ago, rediii said:

BR is too low for a wasa. 250 BR for Wasa or 450BR for Bellon? Wasa it is. Choice is too easy.

Same with 2nd or 1st rates. 1sts are too OP(thickness)

i know but i think admin is asking for sailing not really stats atm. Wasa isnt op sailing wise. Br should be 350 or 380

Edit: and I simply didnt think of br. As someone that doesnt PB alot I dont really think about br alot.

Edited by HachiRoku
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3 hours ago, admin said:

Captains .Please review and suggest improvements

What is the goal?! Good sense of realism, ergo large ships feeling heavy etc.? All ships handling well? Balancing in terms of competetive play/fairness? Something else?

If you just ask people like you did you'll only get subjective opinions, people telling you to buff their favourite ships etc. Many went offtopic already discussing about BR, thickness, Mast HP etc.

Just saying.

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I dreamt last night that the @admin gave me the carro Wappen.

:D 

On a serious note to the Wasa:

It is a shallow draft ship (as most Swedish designs), shallow draft means less displacement, less displacement means higher speed.
Going with that logic, shallow draft means less weight, hvy cannons leave then even less weight for armor, means should be a glass cannon.
Shallow draft means also high COM, high COM means lot of heel, so being badly armored and heeling alot could be the logical nerv for the Wasa.

Edited by sveno
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