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we have already an important advantage of crafted ships over redeemable ships. Reedeemables never have 5/5.

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1 minute ago, mikawa said:

Reedeemables never have 5/5

Not true.  My buddy redeemed a gold Herc the other day.  It was fir/fir......I laughed and laughed....

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52 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Yesterday I double checked all the extraction cost, double checked the blueprint, clicked out an oak/oak Essex and long guns for it.

I afk fish provisions so I disregard the cost of those and I don't factor in LH as a part of cost.

The Essex cost me 9822 reals, the 40 guns cost me 7760 reals; Total 17582 reals.

I then went out to sink the poor thing, had to dodge an extremely bloodthirsty brit big ship gank squad swarming DA-NO waters (Yes, I'd rather feed my Essex to a bot than to give the dreadfleet anything). The Essex sank quickly to a Polish Wasa and I was sent to port with 15162 reals as insurance payout.

So the whole loss experience set me back 2420 reals. My net loss was equivalent to the cost of the twelve weatherdeck guns.

Let's pretend the Essex is a premium ship. I click it out and craft guns for it. Cost of guns is still 7760 reals. If I lose my imaginary premium Essex I get sent to port with nothing while the cost of the guns goes to the bottom with the free ship. Net loss without reps and mod extras would be 7760 reals.

Semi related: In tortue auction right now you can pick up a blue Essex at 60k reals or shop up to a blue Belle Poule going for 300k. So, good luck if you decide to immerse yourself into the player driven eco madness.

My convenient calculations get more complicated if we are to consider Rättvisan vs. crafted Aga or Wasa. You have to part with almost 3k doubs for those and be the lucky owner of a permit for the Wasa.

I'll let the reader decide in spite of @HachiRoku's complete monopoly of the truth, facts and the definition of the term "P2W". 

There is no truth. It's a simple fact. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

P2W is in this category if you scroll down and yes the term is broad but only because it's not the exact same thing in every game because different games have different mechanics. Of all the people I have pointless arguments with on these forums I cannot believe I am trying to explain something to you. You are normally a very objective logical guy. The only reason for your defense of dlc is that the redeemable non craftable ships are better for your convenience. It's better for me to because I don't like crafting. I only care about what happens in the current battle instance I am in. I still try to be objective. Both of us prefer a lobby. We are not getting it. If I have to settle for a sandbox I want it done right and not retarded roe compromises or any compromises for people that don't want to play the game naval action was 4 years until dlc ships. Crafting is part of the experience period. There is no debate there. 

Let's face the obvious Facts. If @admin@admin released all ships as optional dlc tomorrow. How many players would craft anything? 

If you gave nation A DLC ships to fight nation b with crafted ship in a war. Witch side is more likely to give up after loosing 100 ships? I see the bigger picture and you refuse to accept it. Only difference between me and many others is I made a drama about it before 4th rates. You know why? Because I knew this was coming because dlc is were money comes from. 

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13 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

DLC gives content yes but what kind of content? You mention Reverse, he is a good player of course but I have seen his streams. They are boring. Not him, he speaks Russian mostly which I don't speak but I am sure he is really interesting and funny guy :) But the streams are: sail sail sail, see ship, sink it, get stuff, sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. Maybe PB, maybe Patrol (sail less, see more smaller ships, sink them, get stuff). Then it's back to sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. For him and players like him yes DLC is probably great! He just wants more ships served up so he can sink them, so he loves DLC and loves Patrols cos he loves sinking ships! That's his 'content'. Then I hear you say 'DLC ships give content' and other players saying 'Let's have Nassau Patrol every day! Yay!' and it seems you only listen to them.

But there is another Naval Action. I remember when I first played, exploring this massive map. I remember Kolte's guide to solo PvP, about how he would stake out possible targets, look for likely trade runs and patrol them. I remember all the different kinds of players being into different stuff. The outlaw Pirates, the hit and run KPR gankers, the far flung areas of the map explorers, ship builders, traders, solo players, duellists even the meglomaniac RVR Warlords were fun. This game isn't ONLY about serving up as many ships as possible to sink, sometimes having to wait a bit and work stuff out and plan operations is the best bit and knowing you are not always guaranteed a fight when you might want one makes it all the better when you do get one. Doing the hauling, sourcing the woods, gathering the mats, trading the blueprint made sailing the ship more fun. Patrols, DLC ships, Legends it's all fine but it's all the same and not very interesting tbh. The recent comments you have made all rely on this 'the more ships you sink in a day the more fun you must have had' mantra, like that's just  'common sense' and written, but it simply isn't true, not for me anyway and so much more is being squeezed out.

Have your DLC if you need the money, I will tolerate it, I will even buy them, but please don't try and tell me it's for my benefit. Could you please spend a bit of time thinking about the other kinds of 'content' too? A long line of casual players in DLC ships to sink inside a circle and who don't really give a shit anyway? that might be what Reverse wants but it's not what I want and there are others like me (maybe more than you think?).

If your game goes stratospheric and the server is always full, please open another server, but this time with no Patrols, and no DLC Ships, no towing and no teleporting and where a solo player can get hold of a little bit of teak if he's prepared to haul it.  I want to play on that one! I will even pay for the Server space! How much does it cost? :)

My friend, and here you are again wrong. I am just about the people you wrote about in the middle of the message. I love to research, I love to look for trade routes, I love to capture enemy ships, so that I would not craft them. I love to track down trade routes.
But I simply cannot do all this, since I stream in real time.
Any player who has known me for a long time can confirm this.
And again. I say that patrol areas are a good place for pvp. Especially for beginners who can get there PVP and a good profit. But, if you watch my streams, you should see that most of the time I am in the open sea.
Periodically, when I still do not stream, but I play. I do what I wrote above. Maybe I will make a separate video and you will like it.

 

round :D

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1 hour ago, Zlatkowar said:

And if you really mean what you said, that DLC Ships are there to encourage fighting and risky behaviors because the real advantage of the DLC is to have one free ship a day, and not to give exclusivity on said ship, then you should make this happen : 

18 hours ago, El Patron said:

We need every ship as a dlc and craftable. Guys without enough time can buy the dlcs  the others can craft the ships.  Everybody is happy

Interesting idea.

Every ship obtainable in two three possible ways: by DLC, for the fast use and throw-away, by crafting and by purchase from the ship market.

However, a crafted ship should always be better. When the idea is to encourage fighting by easy DLC redeeming, we also have to encourage crafting by giving shipwrights better results than DLC ships will ever be. For honoring the efforts done by the shipwright. It's not only his crafting experience being invested, he has to collect all materials, permits and may have lost a trader while acquiring and trying to bring them home. The time saved by a DLC consuming player is spent by a shipwright player, or double the time.

So, if DLC ships are meant to encourage fighting, concede advantage to the (results of a) shipwright so ship building will not get discouraged. After all, some of us take a lot of game fun from that part of activities.

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15 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

However, a crafted ship should always be better.

No. If this is true, then nobody would buy any DLC, and this is not what the devs want, I guess.

Why not make the most beautiful ships DLC? The fact that they are beautiful must not mean that they are superior in combat.

Superior ships as DLC - no.

Beautiful ships as DLC - yes yes yes! Overall yes if there is chance that we get more detailed ships in the game.

 

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Facts...

1. Yes, before DLC's nothing was happening. DLC and patrol zones saved us for boredom. And of course you don't need to reference your data to correct data sets as long as you own it. And I agree that I am stupid. Still it is not nice to keep reminding me about it with each logical statement you are making.

2. DLC's are not pay2win. Soon there will be nothing to win, that is why it only seems like "pay" to me. 

3. Why not save RvR with a lineship DLC's. It worked for rest, should work for rvr as well. I would love Lotion DLC.

image.jpeg.661822dd90ad3d67c96b1a0201c3ea19.jpeg

  

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9 minutes ago, mikawa said:

No. If this is true, then nobody would buy any DLC

How do you know? I disagree. Purpose is 'fast delivery of fighting readiness without having to spent much time' - or 'instant action'.

For that simple purpose an average ship, not quite as good as a shipwright's result, is by far sufficient. Everything more means to discourage crafting.

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The quicker the game is released the quicker we can make up our minds whether it is worth playing or not . I'll test any version that arrives but...

What I will not do is pay any further money while the version of the end product is up in the air.

Right now we have various types of players , the RVR crowd , the traders who fight a bit and those who only seem to be heading for the gank zones.

These are who make up the majority of the population. The addition of dlc and patrol zone mechanics aren't fuelling an increase in the games population. You could argue it's having the opposite effect but that's for another day. 

 

If these last few DLC's help get the game released than I think many will put up with them. There are many waiting for release, they won't play right for very obvious reasons  to do with wipes and whether the end product is worth investing more time in.

 

If the game as it is now is fun, more would be playing. Word would get out.. "hey come back PVP is everywhere in the patrol zones, for a small one time fee you get a decent ship every day, you can make  it look better with flags and paints"

Sadly it seems as if the fun factor isn't there with this version of the game. I am hopeful a few more changes between now and release will help and stop looking at the number of PVP battles as the only metric for a viable game

 

Shift the patrol zones to Bermuda, out of the way where people can teleport to for their instant ganks

Cease the restrictions for fun war based RVR , let traders and crafters get involved too

 

the sooner we get a release date the better

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Yesterday I double checked all the extraction cost, double checked the blueprint, clicked out an oak/oak Essex and long guns for it.

I afk fish provisions so I disregard the cost of those and I don't factor in LH as a part of cost.

The Essex cost me 9822 reals, the 40 guns cost me 7760 reals; Total 17582 reals.

I then went out to sink the poor thing, had to dodge an extremely bloodthirsty brit big ship gank squad swarming DA-NO waters (Yes, I'd rather feed my Essex to a bot than to give the dreadfleet anything). The Essex sank quickly to a Polish Wasa and I was sent to port with 15162 reals as insurance payout.

So the whole loss experience set me back 2420 reals. My net loss was equivalent to the cost of the twelve weatherdeck guns.

Let's pretend the Essex is a premium ship. I click it out and craft guns for it. Cost of guns is still 7760 reals. If I lose my imaginary premium Essex I get sent to port with nothing while the cost of the guns goes to the bottom with the free ship. Net loss without reps and mod extras would be 7760 reals.

Semi related: In tortue auction right now you can pick up a blue Essex at 60k reals or shop up to a blue Belle Poule going for 300k. So, good luck if you decide to immerse yourself into the player driven eco madness.

My convenient calculations get more complicated if we are to consider Rättvisan vs. crafted Aga or Wasa. You have to part with almost 3k doubs for those and be the lucky owner of a permit for the Wasa.

I'll let the reader decide in spite of @HachiRoku's complete monopoly of the truth, facts and the definition of the term "P2W". 

The thing is you are using your own playing style to discard certain costs, but then go on to condemn crafters for listing at exorbitant prices. A regular crafter of ships cannot spend the time AFK fishing to get provisions and even if he did it would be a struggle to build multiple ships with what he gets. You also have to allow some use of purchased labor hours for a crafter that regularly crafts to sell.

So allowing for the having to extract provisions as in my original Essex calculation you have a crafters cost without LH of just under 20k for ease of calculation. What should he sell it for? What would you call a fair price? It costs him at least 10% to list it and that is for 9 days with no guarantee it will sell. If it does not sell he is already 2k down. He may list that ship at a price you are willing to pay but it is at a port you never visit, how do you know that that ship is there for that price as the game has no way of letting you know. Even if you did find out about it and wanted to buy, it may be half way across the map in a port you do not have an outpost in, would you sail there in a basic cutter and sell it just to buy that ship and then sail that ship back to where you want it? I think not. Even if you have an outpost there you may have already used your one teleport for the day so cannot get it to where you want. This is what I mean about the game not providing a proper market place for ship sales and that is why ships are expensive and crafters usually only craft to order.

Now compare this to the DLC player who needs a ship, all he has to do is go to the port he wants to be at and in a few clicks he has the ship he wants made out of whatever woods he wants, he has spent no time, used no LH, spent no Reals apart from those he needs to put guns on the ship. All very convenient and what some players want, but you have to admit it totally kills the need to craft ships and puts the DLC players at a greater advantage. Okay it was not too bad with just the LRQ and Herc as DLC ships, but now there are more and heavier ships being added to DLC with more likely in future. What also has to be considered is the amount of reals that can now be injected into the market by just redeeming these ships and selling them straight away if you do not currently need them. I do not know what the NPC sell prices will be but an Aggie sells for over 20k and so does a Wasa and these are ships similar to what is being introduced. So there is 20k a day to pay for your cannons. With 5 DLC ships on a day you are not likely to need them is going to net you something like 50k just redeeming them and selling them.

If this is the way the devs want to go they may as well remove crafting from the game altogether and make it so that the purchase of the basic game allows the redeeming of all the normal ships once per day or whatever interval they choose depending on rating and then have your special ships which are DLC. But hey wait, doesn't that then remove the need for special woods and other economy stuff? and doesn't that then reduce the need for RvR to access those items? So why then even bother with an OW? lets just make it a lobby game and forget all the beautiful OW.

Sorry for rambling, but I do seriously think the game is moving in the wrong direction with these DLC's, not because they are P2W but because they kill other aspects of the game that people love.

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, mikawa said:

No. If this is true, then nobody would buy any DLC, and this is not what the devs want, I guess.

Why not make the most beautiful ships DLC? The fact that they are beautiful must not mean that they are superior in combat.

Superior ships as DLC - no.

Beautiful ships as DLC - yes yes yes! Overall yes if there is chance that we get more detailed ships in the game.

 

But i also think of it as such.

Whatever ships that the DLC is better against will

A. Never be crafted

B. Never sail the seas

We have this already with the Requin. Go out, sail in crafted mercurys, brigs, and navy brigs. Don't buy store bought. Oh and btw the hercules can get you too because it's in the shallows and faster and better.

The Hermione DLC is a better example in showing a DLC ship near the bottom tier of the deep water 5th rates. People will buy and sail it not because it is powerful, but because it is a nice ship.

Edited by Teutonic
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2 hours ago, jodgi said:

Semi related: In tortue auction right now you can pick up a blue Essex at 60k reals or shop up to a blue Belle Poule going for 300k. So, good luck if you decide to immerse yourself into the player driven eco madness.

 

Marx was right. 

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What are the plans around the Santa Cecilia ? Will she become availlable as DLC one day by chance ? The Diana ? Will both stay super rare unicorns dock queens rewards ?

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52 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

yes the term is broad

I'm ok with you leaving the door ajar like that, I have no more desire to push.

55 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

The only reason for your defense of dlc is that the redeemable non craftable ships are better for your convenience.

Yes, that is true, but my main drive is to see convenience in the hands of other players who then become less timid. I will still run with crafted ships because, as my demonstration indicates, that will allow me to avoid having to grind for reals.

58 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Both of us prefer a lobby. We are not getting it. If I have to settle for a sandbox I want it done right and not retarded roe compromises or any compromises

It's interesting that arena guys are among the most prominent OW defenders in a time where OW guys seem happy to deconstruct OW with random and arbitrary join timers. You can see them here and there calling for "3!" or "5!" minute timers as if it's impossible to calculate OW distance, speed, view range and find RoE that are the smallest compromise between OW and instances.

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

If you gave nation A DLC ships to fight nation b with crafted ship in a war. Witch side is more likely to give up after loosing 100 ships?

I only know which side will run out of reals first.

This is round two or three with us fighting over prems and p2w, where are you going with this and why? I don't think I fully comprehend.

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31 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The thing is you are using your own playing style to discard certain costs

Are you telling me I'm more economic than the eco guys!? ... I dunno what to do with this revelation.

 

32 minutes ago, Archaos said:

A regular crafter of ships cannot spend the time AFK fishing to get provisions

Everyone has to sleep. 7 x say 7 hours of afk sleep fishing. Who can't get along with that?! We're only talking about saving a thou or three, anyway.

 

38 minutes ago, Archaos said:

But hey wait, doesn't that then remove the need for special woods and other economy stuff? and doesn't that then reduce the need for RvR to access those items? So why then even bother with an OW? lets just make it a lobby game and forget all the beautiful OW.

I would just like to state that Archaos is not my forum alt used for subversive purposes.

 

42 minutes ago, Archaos said:

they kill other aspects of the game that people love.

You mean that people love to charge 300k for a doub-less bluey or 1M for a purple? Ye, proper victims, they are.

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9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Just thought I toss in here my US United stats gave me something like 55,651 insurance for a Cedar/Teak ship.   I been wondering when some one will make a cost spread sheet for crafting, but with all the changes and well lack of active crafters it seem to be something no one is wanting to work up.

I did a few calculations for Oak/Oak ships and the results are as follows. (I have used the extract costs for materials and not added in anything for LH permits or Doubloons. Cannons have not being considered either)

Renomee - Cost 10,100 Reals - Insurance pays 8,241 Reals (Permit also required)  - NPC buy materials cost - 7,200 Reals

Snow - Cost 3,816 Reals - Insurance pays 3,050 Reals  - NPC buy materials cost - 7,031 Reals

Rattlesnake Heavy - Cost 5,636 Reals - Insurance pays 3,655 Reals (Permit also required)  - NPC buy materials cost - 10,174 Reals

Cerberus - Cost 8,509 Reals - Insurance pays 6,952 Reals  - NPC buy materials cost - 15,355

Bucentaure - Cost 59,666 Reals - Insurance pays 66,209 (6,978 Doubloons and permit also required)  - NPC buy materials cost - 105,321 Reals

USS United States - Cost 33,922 Reals - Insurance pays 55,651 Reals (3,632 Doubloons and permit also required)  - NPC buy materials cost - 59,754 Reals

So as you can see the insurance helps but does not cover your losses unless you are getting free provisions by afk fishing.

I have also added in the cost if you were to buy your materials from the NPC.

All the insurance figures are taken from my own mail notes after losses apart from the USS United States which was taken from your figures.

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2 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

Your idea is a variant : what some buy should be free for others. Strange marketing principle btw : it doesn’t make someone really want to buy. Moreover, I guess the crafted L’Hermione (or whatever) should also be better than the DLC version.

As long as ship DLCs are not OP (they are not), I think players should be able to buy original designs/ships that players who don’t buy won’t get. That’s the purely ‘cosmetic’ part of the purchase.

I know it sounds curious. Truth is I am fooling around with admin's justification, even though I really think DLC ships should be craftable. Rare, but craftable.

I understand why he put it that way, and I also get your point here. There's lots of games where similar DLC principle applies. Like the many games where you can either grind to get a very powerful vessel, or pay to either unlock the ship for free, or get coins to purchase it IG (GTA does both, WoWs might only do the coin purchasing part, not 100% sure). At the end of the day they still get the dineros. 

Your point is valid. What primarily motivates people to buy it should be assessed, but I don't see it as a showstopper. 

1 hour ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Interesting idea.

Every ship obtainable in two three possible ways: by DLC, for the fast use and throw-away, by crafting and by purchase from the ship market.

However, a crafted ship should always be better. When the idea is to encourage fighting by easy DLC redeeming, we also have to encourage crafting by giving shipwrights better results than DLC ships will ever be. For honoring the efforts done by the shipwright. It's not only his crafting experience being invested, he has to collect all materials, permits and may have lost a trader while acquiring and trying to bring them home. The time saved by a DLC consuming player is spent by a shipwright player, or double the time.

So, if DLC ships are meant to encourage fighting, concede advantage to the (results of a) shipwright so ship building will not get discouraged. After all, some of us take a lot of game fun from that part of activities.

Agree with that. It would be completely OP to redeem gold ships from DLC... Yet it feels like a waste of potential not to be able to obtain a 5/5 version of these "premium" ships... Making them obtainable ingame as rare content would be interesting, without nullifying the validity or need of the DLC.

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21 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Are you telling me I'm more economic than the eco guys!? ... I dunno what to do with this revelation.

 

Everyone has to sleep. 7 x say 7 hours of afk sleep fishing. Who can't get along with that?! We're only talking about saving a thou or three, anyway.

 

I would just like to state that Archaos is not my forum alt used for subversive purposes.

 

You mean that people love to charge 300k for a doub-less bluey or 1M for a purple? Ye, proper victims, they are.

We all know that you would just love a game like NAL, but that is not an OW game. The problem is people like you are influencing the Devs to make the game more and more like a lobby based instant action game, and fair enough if thats what they want then just bring out a game like that and be done with it, stop trying to pretend that you have an OW MMO sandbox game when you do not.

Are you really advocating that people leave their computers switched on overnight so they can AFK fish to play a game? the environmentalists will be coming for you. I do really hope that they bring out laws banning games that encourage people to leave their computers running when they are not actually at them.

You keep mentioning about the high prices of ships and how crafters are gouging you, but that is only possible because of the lack of a proper market place. If you open up the market, make ships easy to craft, give better access to rare woods and create competition then prices will drop. At the moment those high priced ships only sell when someone is desperate for a ship to get into a fight close by or they need a certain class of ship in a hurry.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mr. Doran said:

 

Marx was right. 

actually he was not. The Essex sold by the IA in the shop has been created with zero cost and efforts and can be made available in potentially endless numbers, while real world goods are created with costs, time and effort and in limited numners. That's the reason why some theories and economic models may work in games but not so much in real world.

Getting back to the game, what I said before means that the crafted Essex - which has been created with actual costs, time and effort by a player - reflects the actual value of the ship in the game much than the same ship sold in IA shop, since this last kind sale is just an attempt of games mechanics to induce an artificially low price in the market (which TBH is in part mitigated by the fact that ships sold by IA are wood/crew so they are worse in general than crafted ones).

Edited by toblerone

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49 minutes ago, Archaos said:

The problem is people like you are influencing the Devs to make the game more and more like a lobby based instant action game

I see you have missed the topic where "people like me" are fighting to keep lobby stuff out of general OW. We've been at it since 2016.

 

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

the lack of a proper market place.

I agree. This has been discussed a lot over the years and I think a centralized trading hub has been rejected by many because it wouldn't be very Age of Sail. I'm easy, tho. How would you set it up?

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7 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I agree. This has been discussed a lot over the years and I think a centralized trading hub has been rejected by many because it wouldn't be very Age of Sail.

Calling for help over your SATPHONE isn't very age of sail either, but we live with that no problem.  If it helps to improve the game, it is a worthy endeavour.

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1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Calling for help over your SATPHONE isn't very age of sail either, but we live with that no problem. 

Hmm... Sure, we live with that but not without problems. 90 sec to 2 min timers almost renders the satphone useless and makes the game max possible Age of Sail. Everyone knows this but I don't think everyone wants it.

 

7 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

If it helps to improve the game, it is a worthy endeavour.

I won't throw sand in those gears.

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2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I see you have missed the topic where "people like me" are fighting to keep lobby stuff out of general OW. We've been at it since 2016.

 

I agree. This has been discussed a lot over the years and I think a centralized trading hub has been rejected by many because it wouldn't be very Age of Sail. I'm easy, tho. How would you set it up?

But cant you see how the changes that are being made with PZ's and DLC ships make the game more like a lobby game. Fair enough people like yourself do not like the Eco game and just want easy to get ships to fight with, but surely they can come up with a system that allows you do that by creating the interdependence between the different types of play. For people to keep playing a game they should not be forced to do anything.

Whats wrong with a centralized trading hub? Oh, its not very age of sail, but magically producing a ship out of nothing is? Why dont DLC ships have to be redeemed in ports where you have a shipyard? They are just there sitting in your back pocket ready to to appear whenever you want. 

I would say all ships put up for sale should appear in every port and they can be purchased from any port, but ships only get delivered to a port where you have a shipyard or if you do not have a shipyard then to your capital outpost or a port you designate in advance as your delivery outpost. The same would apply when you are redeeming DLC ships. Off course some will not like this because they want to get back to the action quickly if they get sunk, but how "age of sail" was it for you to sink someone then get out of battle to find him there again in a new ship ready to engage you again?

If you had a common market for ship sales then you would see prices become more reasonable.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

NPC buy materials cost

what do you mean by NPC buy materials cost

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1 minute ago, admin said:

what do you mean by NPC buy materials cost

Oh, good, so it wasn't just me. For a moment there I thought there was an expensive way to get resources I didn't know about.

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