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7 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I agree. This has been discussed a lot over the years and I think a centralized trading hub has been rejected by many because it wouldn't be very Age of Sail.

Calling for help over your SATPHONE isn't very age of sail either, but we live with that no problem.  If it helps to improve the game, it is a worthy endeavour.

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1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Calling for help over your SATPHONE isn't very age of sail either, but we live with that no problem. 

Hmm... Sure, we live with that but not without problems. 90 sec to 2 min timers almost renders the satphone useless and makes the game max possible Age of Sail. Everyone knows this but I don't think everyone wants it.

 

7 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

If it helps to improve the game, it is a worthy endeavour.

I won't throw sand in those gears.

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2 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I see you have missed the topic where "people like me" are fighting to keep lobby stuff out of general OW. We've been at it since 2016.

 

I agree. This has been discussed a lot over the years and I think a centralized trading hub has been rejected by many because it wouldn't be very Age of Sail. I'm easy, tho. How would you set it up?

But cant you see how the changes that are being made with PZ's and DLC ships make the game more like a lobby game. Fair enough people like yourself do not like the Eco game and just want easy to get ships to fight with, but surely they can come up with a system that allows you do that by creating the interdependence between the different types of play. For people to keep playing a game they should not be forced to do anything.

Whats wrong with a centralized trading hub? Oh, its not very age of sail, but magically producing a ship out of nothing is? Why dont DLC ships have to be redeemed in ports where you have a shipyard? They are just there sitting in your back pocket ready to to appear whenever you want. 

I would say all ships put up for sale should appear in every port and they can be purchased from any port, but ships only get delivered to a port where you have a shipyard or if you do not have a shipyard then to your capital outpost or a port you designate in advance as your delivery outpost. The same would apply when you are redeeming DLC ships. Off course some will not like this because they want to get back to the action quickly if they get sunk, but how "age of sail" was it for you to sink someone then get out of battle to find him there again in a new ship ready to engage you again?

If you had a common market for ship sales then you would see prices become more reasonable.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

NPC buy materials cost

what do you mean by NPC buy materials cost

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1 minute ago, admin said:

what do you mean by NPC buy materials cost

Oh, good, so it wasn't just me. For a moment there I thought there was an expensive way to get resources I didn't know about.

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3 hours ago, Captain Reverse said:

My friend, and here you are again wrong

I AM wrong about your streams, I do actually watch them on occasion and I quite enjoy them because I learn things from them cos you are good player and I am an NA nerd. :)  I am sure you do like playing NA this way. They are only boring in that they only portray this one aspect of the game. (Yes you should make the other video, I would definitely watch it. I only used you as an example cos Admin mentioned you specifically in relation to DLC so I apologise for that) and this is the side of the game that devs always seem to concentrate on.

Admins attitude is that: DLC creates more fights, and that more fights means more fun, and that easier access to PvP attracts more players. Your earlier posts echoed this a bit.

People are always making statements like this as if it is common sense and obvious but I think this it is fundamentally UNTRUE. I love PvP and it's the main reason I play. But laying out DLC ships for casual players makes PvP meaningless and 'fake' (as others have put it), it makes the game worse and I don't think that attracts or retains players. Even if NA does get lots of players on release and they stay (I truly hope this will happen) a more immersive mmo Naval Action would still have been a better game and I just took exception to admin saying that DLC ships were somehow for my benefit. o7

Patrols as a place for new players to practice? perhaps, but we both learned to PvP without them and they get profit because Admin deliberately placed profit there to encourage players to go, instead of using the economy (like in a proper mmo).  Like DLCs the PvP there is meaningless and 'fake' and I don't think that's very good.

This is all only my opinion and the game I want to play. I'm not saying my way is right. Some people just want a straight insta PvP game. I wish Legends had worked out cos then maybe we could have had both?

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13 minutes ago, admin said:

what do you mean by NPC buy materials cost

It means if I buy the oak, fir, hemp etc from NPC

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5 minutes ago, Archaos said:

But cant you see how the changes that are being made with PZ's and DLC ships make the game more like a lobby game.

Doran and probably Hachi couldn't care less about PZ's. I like that there is a spot on the map where people come to fight and not run, but I understand many objections to it. Our problem now, which is much more sinister, is that long timers make the entire OW into a PZ like experience. May I suggest that you go after the big fish before worrying about a tiny circle everyone can easily avoid?

 

12 minutes ago, Archaos said:

For people to keep playing a game they should not be forced to do anything.

I've felt forced to deal with eco since early 2016. A lot less now since the first proper DLCs are about to come out. But what are you referring to? Who is forced to what?

14 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Whats wrong with a centralized trading hub?

Don't look at me! I'm ok with it.

15 minutes ago, Archaos said:

but magically producing a ship out of nothing is?

You forget about the role-play aspect many enjoy. There you are, Horatio Hornblower, a penniless lieutenant with a good list of merits but without tangible hopes for a command. Suddenly, out of the blue, you have been charged with the Atropos. Does sound more Age of Sail now, doesn't it? 

20 minutes ago, Archaos said:

If you had a common market for ship sales then you would see prices become more reasonable.

I'm sure they would. 

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10 minutes ago, Archaos said:

It means if I buy the oak, fir, hemp etc from NPC

Hmm.. standard resources can't be bought from NPCs, (unless people sell to them) are you sure they sell oak or hemp? Because if they do its a bug.

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3 minutes ago, jodgi said:

a tiny circle everyone can easily avoid?

I accept that point. Provided you can AFFORD to avoid it, there were times with doubloons and Medals that you HAD to go to get the stuff you needed. Also with current pop all other activity is dead, hopefully after release it will just be a 'Legends' area that I can just avoid and other players who want it can go to, and there will plenty of other stuff going on which will be fine.

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27 minutes ago, admin said:

Hmm.. standard resources can't be bought from NPCs, (unless people sell to them) are you sure they sell oak or hemp? Because if they do its a bug.

Well I just took the prices from the trader tool to give an indication of what the price would be using NPC prices.

If people sell to the NPC, what price does the NPC resell at?

Edit: I have checked and the NPC does sell for those prices when someone sells the items to them, so my prices were valid.

Edited by Archaos
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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Well I just took the prices from the trader tool to give an indication of what the price would be using NPC prices.

If people sell to the NPC, what price does the NPC resell at?

Edit: I have checked and the NPC does sell for those prices when someone sells the items to them, so my prices were valid. 

Many items are available in Port Shops -  I often see Hemp at 99, Iron ore at 105, Coal at various prices -  7 may have been the lowest. 

I also have seen Fir, Oak, and Lig Vit.

None of these were under a "Sell Contract", so IF Player generated, they were items dumped by a Player and therefore available for purchase.

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I won’t enter in this Pay to win / pay to win time dispute. New DLC’s will be introduced, battles will be invaded by Rutabaga ships for some weeks, as they were before Wasa only, Bello only or Requin only battles. That’s a predictable fact and we will have to live with it. I noticed around hundred player left the “war” server since this patch pre-announcement, less than 300 yesterday evening, compared to less than 400 one week ago (which we have to live with, or to leave with).

Pay to win (time) have other development areas in this game. If you pay for several accounts, even without DLC, you will always get the wood built you prefer, whatever the nations which control the “good” ports. Just move or reset an account when port changes owner.

And we know that good upgrades are more important than good woods.

I won’t speak about new DLC’s, I have no experience using them or fighting them, but let’s use existing DLC experience. I am personally more anxious about ships hidden below RNG screens (chests), than by DLC’s. For the moment, players can use Niagara to counter Requins or Hercules. Well skipped, this is OK. With this RNG mechanic, to get a Niagara, a player shall have to conquer a chest by PVP missions, then to have some luck to get the right permit… As a consequence, may be, a lucky player could get 3 Niagara per year? I don’t know the chance to get a Niagara permit. I know that the last chest I opened after an epic event gave me just a boarding upgrade. No permit, no note, no paint… This is a bigger concern that the fact that Hercules and Requin are DLC’s: Hercules and Requin will have no opponent. May be the Cerberus, but her very big hull compared to his power makes this ship quite weak in PVP (and almost not used). With the present setup of the game, all ships that can counter DLC’s are either the same ship, other DLC’s or ships hidden by a RNG mechanic. The purpose of this RNG mechanic is to make some ships rare and valuable… The consequence is that non-DLC ships that can be used against DLC ships cannot be found.

@admin, Answers are also lacking for Diana, Santa Cecilia, Gun Boats, which are fun. By the way, I have an “unlimited” note for Santa Cecilia: does this mean that I can redeem her after the game release?

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Most of the time i think it's people selling the cargo of capped ai traders in the nearest port to not have to haul them around or because they are new, i've even bough WO that way.

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2 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

Admins attitude is that: DLC creates more fights, and that more fights means more fun, and that easier access to PvP attracts more players. Your earlier posts echoed this a bit.

To sum this up.... Cheap ships = more fights.  Expensive ships = less fights

If NA is hell bent to continue down this path of expensive ships that should be crafted "solo", but yet can be lost 10mins away from port, then we need to bring back duras to most ships.  Otherwise expensive ships that are easy to lose and labor intensive to craft....will simply sit in port and everyone will be on DLC ships. 

Maybe that's the overall intention because folks will have to buy the DLCs.  Either way, the game won't sustain a population for very long as we've witnessed since the UI / Crafting patch.

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4 minutes ago, Socialism said:

To sum this up.... Cheap ships = more fights.  Expensive ships = less fights

 

also - more DLC = more 'fake' fights

more fights aren't bad, but when you can't conceivably  beat someone by hurting their economy, then whats the god damn point of RvR and fighting to give yourself a better economic edge?

EDIT:

Please bring back durability. I regret ever asking them to go away.

 

Edited by Teutonic
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18 minutes ago, Socialism said:

If NA is hell bent to continue down this path of expensive ships that should be crafted "solo", but yet can be lost 10mins away from port, then we need to bring back duras to most ships.  Otherwise expensive ships that are easy to lose and labor intensive to craft....will simply sit in port and everyone will be on DLC ships.

But don't you see it becomes a self fulfilling prediction, because the Devs can then say "look the introduction of these new DLC ships has led to X number of battles" and give us some other meaningless statistics to back up the case.

Edit: a couple of quotes regarding statistics

“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” 
 Benjamin Disraeli

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.” 
 Mark Twain

“99 percent of all statistics only tell 49 percent of the story.” 
 Ron DeLegge II, Gents with No Cents

Edited by Archaos
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32 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Most of the time i think it's people selling the cargo of capped ai traders in the nearest port to not have to haul them around or because they are new, i've even bough WO that way.

Is this still going to be a thing at release? Someone told me that you won't find rare woods on AI traders soon? Don't know if this BS or not?

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6 hours ago, Barbarosa said:

Facts...

1. Yes, before DLC's nothing was happening. DLC and patrol zones saved us for boredom. And of course you don't need to reference your data to correct data sets as long as you own it. And I agree that I am stupid. Still it is not nice to keep reminding me about it with each logical statement you are making.

2. DLC's are not pay2win. Soon there will be nothing to win, that is why it only seems like "pay" to me. 

3. Why not save RvR with a lineship DLC's. It worked for rest, should work for rvr as well. I would love Lotion DLC.

image.jpeg.661822dd90ad3d67c96b1a0201c3ea19.jpeg

  

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

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9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

i can't help but feel he was being sarcastic.

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

I'm ok with you leaving the door ajar like that, I have no more desire to push.

7 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

In general yes but the reason I say this is because something can be p2w in one game and not in another because how they work. In naval action they are. 

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

Yes, that is true, but my main drive is to see convenience in the hands of other players who then become less timid. I will still run with crafted ships because, as my demonstration indicates, that will allow me to avoid having to grind for reals.

7 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Thanks for proving my point. I have nothing to say to that. 

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

It's interesting that arena guys are among the most prominent OW defenders in a time where OW guys seem happy to deconstruct OW with random and arbitrary join timers. You can see them here and there calling for "3!" or "5!" minute timers as if it's impossible to calculate OW distance, speed, view range and find RoE that are the smallest compromise between OW and instances.

No, not a OS defender. A defender of game design overall. I prefer rainbow six to call of duty. This doesn't mean I should push call of duty to a more tacitcal game design. I see what call of duty is trying to be and will tell you what works and doesn't work. DLC would be no problem what so ever in a lobby based game if the ships were not op. There is no crafting in a lobby game. There are no ship logistics in a lobby based game. There is no need to go out and grind permits or reals.

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

I only know which side will run out of reals first.

This is round two or three with us fighting over prems and p2w, where are you going with this and why? I don't think I fully comprehend.

The side that doesnt need to spend reals because they have DLC ships will most likly not run out first... Proved my point again. 

I am saying the DLC model is p2w. You are denying it. If you agreed that it was p2w but you want it for your personal convenience I can agree to disagree. 

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2 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

i can't help but feel he was being sarcastic.

hard to tell on these forums sometimes. Staun is someone that is either very stupid or a massive troll. 

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1 hour ago, Socialism said:

To sum this up.... Cheap ships = more fights.  Expensive ships = less fights

If NA is hell bent to continue down this path of expensive ships that should be crafted "solo", but yet can be lost 10mins away from port, then we need to bring back duras to most ships.  Otherwise expensive ships that are easy to lose and labor intensive to craft....will simply sit in port and everyone will be on DLC ships. 

Maybe that's the overall intention because folks will have to buy the DLCs.  Either way, the game won't sustain a population for very long as we've witnessed since the UI / Crafting patch.

Because RVR is dead. Rvr is the only thing that keeps the game alive. I ask for ROE changes and many other changes to make the overall game better. The core of the game is RVR. When that is fixed the game will do fine for the most part. In order to fix it I believe ai grinding needs to go. It is tedious. I am not saying you are wrong or anything. I am just saying RVR is the most important thing. 

Edited by HachiRoku
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14 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

It was sarcasm... :(

DLS are needed to build a nice monument and graveyard for the game..

 

 

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Just now, Barbarosa said:

It was sarcasm... :(

DLS are needed to build a nice monument and graveyard for the game..

 

 

I am sorry mate.... there are so many idiots on the forums sometimes that its hard to tell. I would like to ask you to stop with it though this matter is extremely important to me. I want DLC ships I want 100 DLC ships. If they are not op and fit into the game I don't care if 20 sols are added. The devs have given us 1000% more content than was promised and it is obvious they need to make DLC. They cannot continue to give us free ships even though the game is alpha. Its clear to some of my ideas are less profitable for them but I really do not want the game to go down this road. Herc and requin are already sold. We need to keep things serious before another mistake is made that cannot be reverted. 

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