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1 minute ago, admin said:

Unlike WOW you can do everything solo (it is just slower). Want it faster? Join the company. Wars were not fought alone. Or steal from others. All ships can be captured from players with 0 crafting.

I don't mind slower as long as I can get everything.  I don't mind hauling if there is a decent profit.  This is why I post on here, to put these opinions out there.  I do think that you should consider the consequences if people stop crafting ships.  And they will stop crafting ships when it's far easier to just redeem a DLC for every occasion.  I really like making my own ships and hoping for that gold one, but if it's too hard to do, or if I can only craft poorer quality...I would be disinclined to continue.

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Just now, Routan said:

So dlc ships will be capturable?

Imported ships cannot be captured, but the guy i was responding was talking about crafted ships and their availability to a solo player.

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17 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Because he was an actual Admiral and i'm playing a game (that I enjoy).  I hate to see it turning into a two (or more) tier system where some players have everything and others are poor.  I feel like you are making it more difficult to put ships in OW here.

Angus, you're a good captain....  you know as well as I that you'll be able to cap some good ships....   or steal some good woods, since we know where the ports are (people gotta move it)...

Or you know a bunch of people:  Ask to get put on a big clan's friends list in exchange for some screening or something.

Yes, as someone who plays solo alot, things are about to get more difficult.

Its just another challenge to overcome.  (Think of all the shitty captains who buy the DLC and make them out of good woods you'll be able to steal...)

I dont disagree with your sentiments, I just don't think it will be quite as bad as we think.....

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8 minutes ago, admin said:

Sorry, but your ITS A GAME statement is not relevant to games keeping some content behind group activities.
You cannot get high end BOP gear if you don't group up EVEN In casual World of Warcraft. No chance - you must raid with others.

Unlike WOW you can do everything solo (it is just slower). Want it faster? Join the company. Wars were not fought alone. Or steal from others. All ships can be captured from players with 0 crafting.

#1You can do every single activity in world of warcraft as solo player. Since Wotlk you got pug groups able to raid. You might be under the impression of crude vanilla wow. And i played WOW through vanilla up to it;s fall from grace. And besides of nolifing to be #1 on server killing raids wow was casual as it gets. You dont need to be part of any guilds to RAID top gear locations.

#2 You missed the point of "i am not getting drowned" argument. It's point is to show off you can;t use real life examples (like you using Nelson crafting his own ship). It is worthless and silly. I never said i would like ot get top loot for free, nor did i say there shouldnt be guilds. 

What i can say is "ship DLC;s with this remaining playerbase in NA seems to me like a bar owner making AA meetings and selling those suckers few drinks after. Bcs addicts will be addicts." I do not see it as moral not to help them(fix damn game that forces ppl out of pvp) , but instead sell them short time remedy (free ships that fixes gear fear issues).

Edited by manuva85

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1 minute ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Angus, you're a good captain....  you know as well as I that you'll be able to cap some good ships....   or steal some good woods, since we know where the ports are (people gotta move it)...

Or you know a bunch of people:  Ask to get put on a big clan's friends list in exchange for some screening or something.

Yes, as someone who plays solo alot, things are about to get more difficult.

Its just another challenge to overcome.  (Think of all the shitty captains who buy the DLC and make them out of good woods you'll be able to steal...)

I dont disagree with your sentiments, I just don't think it will be quite as bad as we think.....

I will indeed do everything that you mention (and tks for the props!), but I still want to put in the 2 cents of opinion.  @admin doesn't respond to every post and he certainly doesn't have to implement everything I say (but he should!!).  If I can put my opinion in the back of his mind, that's fine with me and I'm not wasting my time here.  I know he completely disagrees with me on rare goods, but he's wrong, lol.

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22 minutes ago, admin said:

He has the point if we assume an interesting, deep, amazing hauling game - Euro truck ship sim 3, that EVERYONE wants to participate in.

But .....

...

Now.. what he is offering by "nailing it"? His proposal is to remove 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills for others. or to not add MORE battles. Because DLC ship buyers will then chose to NOT PLAY at all.  

 

I think you are missing the point. Nobody suggested removing any battles or PVP kills for others. Maybe highlighting the key points helps a little bit?

3 hours ago, Archaos said:

The problem is you have not created the correct market place for ships, as crafters we cannot put on sale unlimited ships in multiple ports, there is no system where someone can place an order for a ship in a certain port that can be seen by everyone in nation no matter which port they are in. Even if someone had the materials and dock space to craft that ship but they already had all their ship sale slots full it would cost them money to remove a ship from sale. Also the problem with building a ship off spec is that due to the multiple wood choices you may not craft the ship they require, if I am looking for a Teak/White Oak Cerberus I am not going to consider a Live Oak/White Oak one.

Create the marketplace and ship crafting will become a useful profession in the game. But in order to do that you have to open up the availability of crafting permits for the ships that people want so the crafters can make them. Currently you are killing crafting by increasing DLC ships, hiding permits behind RNG PVP activities and restricting the availability of the preferred woods.

I think he has a point though. Crafting is extremely limited at the moment due to strict limitation of resources (rare woods and permits are hard to get). All he was proposing was to implement a demand driven ship market instead of a supply driven. 

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5 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

I just don't think it will be quite as bad as we think

It is already, and on its best way to be even worse.Shipcrafting will suffer even more damage, that is for sure.

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14 minutes ago, admin said:

What? I do not get your percentages and comparisons. I think you did not get our numbers at all.

11000 Battles were with DLC ships. That is not total battles. Overall battles during check period were around 36k.  DLC ships participated in 11000 out of those 36k. And generate more deaths than brigs (who constantly die in tutorials). Brig is 3rd most sinking ship in the game by count.

DLC Ships give content. And will give more content. Claimants who claim those weak ships (by % deaths) are PW2 are constantly asked by reverse to duel him yet no-one yet accepted the bet. I guess they are only p2w on the forum (not in game)

My percentages were Hypothetical and not real.

Of course I don't have the data, you do. 

What I am saying is that of all those battles, Why do you think some ships are rarely ever seen?

What point is there for a player to sail a pickle, mercury, brig/n.brig in PvP and RvR? I can just redeem a hercules and beat every single player in those ships. They have nothing and I have a free ship.

Edited by Teutonic
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10 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

One thing that isn't fair about the Redeemables is that you have to buy them to play the shp. 

There is no reason we captains without the DLC should not be able to capture and use the DLC ships. A captain buying it gets to replace it everyday and build a very specific DLC ship getting to choose the woods and such. A captain who has not bought it would never be able to replace it unless they capture another one, plus they are stuck with whatever built it was when captured. I understand the reason for not making them capturable is because ppl will just free trade the ships to friends or alts. What if the DLC ship had some kind of parameter that it must have a a certain amount of damage or an amount of actual battle time before it can be captured....just to prove it is a real battle? Say 50% HP damage, or say the battle must be at least 20 minutes before it's capturable. Make it blocked out in the Trade options between players. There should be some way that every ship is available to all.......or maybe we should just be happy enough that we could sail it in that same battle instance if it is a multi-ship battle.... 😕

BTW, @admin 4th rate NPCs should be capturable considering the difficulty of crafting ships. Keep 1-3 rate ships non-capturable...but let us have crap ass 4th rates, plz.

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For me DLC is not pay to win ..its pay to not have to do the crafting and trading etc

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1 minute ago, PG Monkey said:

For me DLC is not pay to win ..its pay to not have to do the crafting and trading etc

But crafting and trading should be a big part in a age of sail game.

If no one is trading or running resources, who will you Rover guys fight in open world with your small pickles and snows or with your P2W LRQ?

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3 minutes ago, PG Monkey said:

For me DLC is not pay to win ..its pay to not have to do the crafting and trading etc

Considering NA isnt f2p and it is devs that are responsible for the fact crafting and trading are repulsive i dont think that is so much better. Monetization on games flaws, that could be fixed if they only wanted to.

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11 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

There is no reason we captains without the DLC should not be able to capture and use the DLC ships.

It would be exploited immediately. Since the DLC owner has a flat rate, a DLC ship is worth nothing to him (as long as he does not sink >1/day). So he might give it away for free to a friend one way or another.

I personally don't understand why DLC ships have to be flatrates. A DLC could just produce one ship note for little money. This would (a) generate constant cash flow, (b) be compatible with crafting ships of the same type in parallel and (c) would avoid any issue with exploitation as each single ship still has a (real life) value. 

Edited by van Veen
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52 minutes ago, admin said:

He has the point if we assume an interesting, deep, amazing hauling game - Euro truck ship sim 3, that EVERYONE wants to participate in.

But our amazing and exciting hauling mini game is getting nerfed.
Clans doing port investments will remove hauling of standard resources for themselves, or their friend list or whole nation (their choice). 

 

As a result he is mistaken. Because he thinks DLC owners will still play and happily haul.  
Players who do not want to haul chose DLC ships VS chose not to play at all.

  • Choosing DLC ships keeps some crafting (need repairs, need guns, need mods). DLC ships also kill ships sometimes (which also require crafting of repairs, mods, and sometimes even ships). 
  • Choosing not to play removes ALL that demand. And removes crafted ship destruction.
    During the last data check on DLC vs normal ships 11000 battles were generated with DLC ships and 3000 DLC ships sank (before the damage model change they had the worst survivability, worser than a brig). Why? Because people love action and losing ships sometimes is part of it.

Higher class ships will further increase the demand for consumables and guns and will sink MORE crafted ships to replace them. And the profession does not change really, as people will still want niagara, surprises, indefatigables and heavy lineships. + more consumables will be needed due to more battles happening.

Now.. what he is offering by "nailing it"? His proposal is to remove 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills for others. or to not add MORE battles. Because DLC ship buyers will then chose to NOT PLAY at all.  

 

why not simply adding things instead of nerfing one while putting the other in the game?

What I mean is that you could still add DLC ships to the game AND make the port upgrade thing to boost organized clans AND make ship crafting more solo player friendly (mainly in terms of availability of rare woods and permits) let's say just up to 3rd rates … so that the "no craft at all PVP crew" will be happily buying DLC ships, the big clans will be able to make their own migthy 1st and 2nd fleets for conquest and the "crafting solo guys" will craft and sell middle class ships to casual players (or to privateers).

I'm asking because I struggle in focusing the reason behind what It appears to me a loose/win choice instead of a win/win one.

Edited by toblerone
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10 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

There is no reason we captains without the DLC should not be able to capture and use the DLC ships. A captain buying it gets to replace it everyday and build a very specific DLC ship getting to choose the woods and such. A captain who has not bought it would never be able to replace it unless they capture another one, plus they are stuck with whatever built it was when captured. I understand the reason for not making them capturable is because ppl will just free trade the ships to friends or alts.
What if the DLC ship had some kind of parameter that it must have a a certain amount of damage or an amount of actual battle time before it can be captured....just to prove it is a real battle? Say 50% HP damage, or say the battle must be at least 20 minutes before it's capturable. Make it blocked out in the Trade options between players.
None of these parameters prevent abus of the feature by on person getting the dlc and then distributing ships via capping and recapping with alt use. Personally, I cannot see any way to prevent that.

There should be some way that every ship is available to all.......or maybe we should just be happy enough that we could sail it in that same battle instance if it is a multi-ship battle....
Afaik "non-capturable" ships can already be captured inside the battle instance they will just be lost once the battle ends.
 

 

Edited by Tom Farseer

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31 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

so of 11,000 battles that were generated and 3,000 DLC ships sank leading you to believe their survivability is worse than a brig.

Can I ask how many brigs were sailed by players in those 11,000 battles?

 

Pirate_Global_Warming_Graph.gif.ca596e1e246de75cc27ffa071e0324b0.gif

seems like global warming correlates with pirates...

Edited by z4ys
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27 minutes ago, admin said:

Sorry, but your ITS A GAME statement is not relevant to games keeping some content behind group activities.
You cannot get high end BOP gear if you don't group up EVEN In casual World of Warcraft. No chance - you must raid with others.

Unlike WOW you can do everything solo (it is just slower). Want it faster? Join the company. Wars were not fought alone. Or steal from others. All ships can be captured from players with 0 crafting.

Technically World of Warcraft has queued raids where players can queue solo and then get assigned into a raid group.  Same with most of their dungeons.  These players don't have to join a guild to get BOP gear.  But they do have to do these activities in groups of other people.  Actually this is why wow has had many players quit.....casual level content is easier than going through the effort of a guild.

 

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Yes. Redeemable every x hours

Answering @Anolytic question too. 
There were proposals and discussions to move the DLC ships to permits, but they were dropped because main reason people purchase those ships is to speed up access to pvp/pve without the need for hauling. Port investments will also allow crafters to remove/reduce hauling. 

Admin with all due respect. This is the definition of P2W. If it saves time /work.... 

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6 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Pirate_Global_Warming_Graph.gif.ca596e1e246de75cc27ffa071e0324b0.gif

seems like global warming correlates with pirates...

sounds like something you should ask the admin- I'm just repeating what they said to get an understanding.

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9 hours ago, admin said:

They did only good. 
DLC ships provide for 30% of battles and even more significant percentage of pvp deaths (content for others).
We provided these numbers before. 

This is a game about PVP fights and RVR, crafting was promised as basic and will remain basic. 
If crafters are such a powerful force why in KPR players cannot buy a good cerberus? I saw the guy who could not find a crafted cerberus, in the most populated nation.

I agree in that they did only good ( for me anyways ) but that was when we only had 2 small DLC ships, the L'Hermione is already bigger than Hercules and the new premium Wasa is a bit over the top in my opinion. Now with the new DLCs you can have a whole fleet of free ships on demand every day and let's be real - everyone who wants to be competitive on the war server will absolutely need that 4th rate. 

Also I hate crafting and had little sympathy for those complaining about DLC ships when we only had 2 but the more DLC ships you are adding, the more idiotic it becomes to actually craft ships for costly and rare materials, only to fight against ships that are free / without cost. Sinking a premium / DLC ship feels highly unrewarding and last time I checked actually is, probably to avoid alt farming with free DLC ships.

I think the 2-3 DLC ships we had were golden. Enough to stay in game and have some daily PvP without fear of loss but at the same time there was balance due to them being small ships that are no match for larger frigates and SOLs and thus building ships and economy was still important. Now we get this 4th rate, and I have this strange feeling that it will be a wee bit on the overperforming side, maybe nerfed some a few months later when the damage is already done but enough copies are sold.

I hope you understand my concerns but I don't know what the cooldown will be etc. , maybe you can make it actually balanced.

Forcing new players to get the DLC ships on top of the base game to be competitive is one thing but at some point only a fool will craft a ship, when he can get a better for free without effort, only by paying once. I think you are moving a bit too fast with the addition of more and more DLC ships. Would be fine if you removed economy / crafting completely and all ships that are not DLC ships can be purchased with PvP marks.

If I buy those DLC ships, I will drop crafting ships completely - why would I bother, I'll just play whenever I can redeem this premium 4th rate. For free, no rare woods or permits needed. Just push the button and there it is. It's not that I don't like that - I really do. It's simply bullshit to everyone who wants to sail a ship that has to be crafted.

DLC ships are great but they render the economy and crafting obsolete once you add too many and too high tiers and almost force people to buy them due to scarcity of meta wood and permits, leaving the use of crafted ships with a really shitty cost efficiency. Maybe this is your very intention but I think higher of you and would rather hope otherwise. Then again, it's all about the money, I guess.

 

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35 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

EDIT: Heck with Cerbs, Surprises, Renos in the shallows - there is even less reason for a player to sail in a 6th rate when they straight up can't compete.

The best way to balance these ships in the shallow and well other ships like DLC ships is to give them a much higher BR that you can bring two 6th rates over one 5th rate.  Which could out gun that 5th rate in a battle if they focus. The problem is that isn't the case in the shallows.  Getting the new damage model helsp with the deep water ports, but many of them still have very low BR so you can't bring a good fleet of players and ships.  

15 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

There is no reason we captains without the DLC should not be able to capture and use the DLC ships. A captain buying it gets to replace it everyday and build a very specific DLC ship getting to choose the woods and such. A captain who has not bought it would never be able to replace it unless they capture another one, plus they are stuck with whatever built it was when captured. I understand the reason for not making them capturable is because ppl will just free trade the ships to friends or alts. What if the DLC ship had some kind of parameter that it must have a a certain amount of damage or an amount of actual battle time before it can be captured....just to prove it is a real battle? Say 50% HP damage, or say the battle must be at least 20 minutes before it's capturable. Make it blocked out in the Trade options between players. There should be some way that every ship is available to all.......or maybe we should just be happy enough that we could sail it in that same battle instance if it is a multi-ship battle.... 😕

BTW, @admin 4th rate NPCs should be capturable considering the difficulty of crafting ships. Keep 1-3 rate ships non-capturable...but let us have crap ass 4th rates, plz.

I have no issue with the DLC ships not being able to be captured or traded.  This is down so you can't abuse the free ship that cost nothing once a day.  Keep it like that.  Hell even if you allow to craft them with BP's you could keep the none capture/trade thing, but i think any ship that you craft shouldn't have this restriction.  It wouldn't be hard for them to code in the two version.  You make Herc.1 the DLC ship.  You have Herc.2 as the crafted one.  The .1 can not be captured or traded.  The .2 can be captured and traded as it's a crafted ship, you also get reals for it when it's sunk cause it's a crafted ship.   They can both have the exact same name Herc in game, but have them as two diffrent ship models in game.  ;Maybe name the craftable ones refits so that you see a Herc and a Herc Refit you know one was DLC and the other is craftable and can be captured.

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31 minutes ago, PG Monkey said:

For me DLC is not pay to win ..its pay to not have to do the crafting and trading etc

Just wondering in what ship can you sink a LRQ with proper ugprades and decent captain ?

I assume you are a very decent captain and you can select 1 ship of the same class. You should sink him, he should not escape. What craftable ship will you select against a dlc LRQ ? So I will be sure at least LRQ is not pay to win :) 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Now.. what he is offering by "nailing it"? His proposal is to remove 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills for others. or to not add MORE battles. Because DLC ship buyers will then chose to NOT PLAY at all.  

And to use the counter argument, when the crafters and the haulers choose not to play then you will just end up with a DLC vs DLC player game. You really have to choose which way you want to go and stick with it, you either have a game that is pure PvP which may as well just be a lobby game or an OW game which caters to differing tastes but has something for everyone.

The ideal is to create some interdependancy so that all professions are catered for. The traders haul the goods and make doubloons, the crafters craft the ships and repairs etc and sell them to the PvP'ers, The PvP'ers buy the ships and carry out the RvR and protect the traders.

You read the stastics and bring out comments like 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills, but what were the figures before DLC ships were introduced? What were the figures before fine woods and limitation to crafting?

Even staunch PvP players like Jodgi reacted positively to my post because all he wants is readily available ships to buy which can be achieved by a proper ships market place. There was a time in game where certain ships were being sold dirt cheap in LT because someone was crafting loads in an attempt to get gold ships, you were able to buy Bellonas at close to cost price if not below that in some cases. Why was this? It was because there were few restrictions on obtaining materials and permits. Restricting building only restricts PvP and forces people into buying DLC, which you have said yourself you decided not to make the DLC permit only because the PvP crowd would not accept that they would have to still build them.

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