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7 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

It costs up to 23 hours of no play time if he is bad or unlucky....  (from a guy with no DLC ships)

Plain wrong, use fleet perk ??? Stock up to 4 ships, use them, do not sink all of them same day. I am lazy captain, I do not wanna reset perk, but smart captains should do it.

1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

And the ship was called “le broken” because shitty, lazy captains refused to spend any time learning tactics or using ships that can beat them.  No, you don’t go side to side with a carro Req in a smaller ship and you never tack when they are within 100 yards....   

I am that captain, so that is my limited ability and  I am lazy and shitty, that is why I call it Le Broken still. I wish I was much better like you, but it is not the case obviously.

My point which your thick skulls can not accept is, any ship which is top of her class and when there is no good counter to it, is P2W.

I have captured Bellonas and Agamemnons with my SNOW, so I can say that Snow is good to fight against Bellonas, yep it was in the past but I can put some videos or screenshots ?

So I say use SNOW against the new 4th rate ship ! Thank you for making my lazy and shitty mind clear.

----------------------------

All aside I will never call L'Hermione P2W and Hercules at it's current state P2W. So this is my logic, if there was LRQ craftable in the game and Prince was DLC, I will never call Prince P2W. This is my logic, but your logic is Snow > Bellona or Agamemnon ( as I have captured few bigger ships with it, need some screenshots ?), I call your logic to be bullshit.

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8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You win because you're replacement ship costs nothing. 

Ok.

I'm not saying you do, but I'm suspecting there is a tiny possibility you have a blindspot when it comes to resources, crafting and insurance.

I have the two silly little current DLCs but haven't used them against players yet. I've used and lost my own crafted ships instead. Right now losing a ship costs me almost nothing. Unless you buy stupid expensive woods or other stupid expensive resources from players you get almost every dime back. Yes, yes, oak/oak is "useless" and "terrible" (it's not) but if you stick with things you can extract yourself or steal from bots or players you can even come out of a ship loss with a net profit because of insurance rates.

When I start using my bigger DLCs I will always lose the guns and get nothing back for them, so using my own crafted ships will save me money while going with my DLC will guarantee me losing more money.

Sure it'll be faster to just click out a DLC, but even if I have to go to extract and haul oak and hemp it will take me no more than 5-10 minutes of engaging eco gameplay to click out a new ship. More often crafting a ship doesn't take longer than clicking a DLC because we usually keep stuff for at least 10 ships at the ready.

Guns make up about half the cost of a ship, so you should start worrying about us DLC clickers losing our reals while crafters get their cash back. How's that for a plot twist, eh?!

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15 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Guns make up about half the cost of a ship, so you should start worrying about us DLC clickers losing our reals while crafters get their cash back. How's that for a plot twist, eh?!

I dont think insurance covers the cost of guns, it hardly covers the cost of the ship.

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22 minutes ago, Aerospace said:
40 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

It costs up to 23 hours of no play time if he is bad or unlucky....  (from a guy with no DLC ships)

Plain wrong, use fleet perk ??? Stock up to 4 ships, use them, do not sink all of them same day. I am lazy captain, I do not wanna reset perk, but smart captains should do it. 

Let's shed a little more light on those timelines...

  1. IF the player with the DLC has used his fleet perks to get all 4 possible DLC ships, that means he has not lost a ship in 4 days.
  2. In 4 days even without an alt, with careful choosing of where you generate your resources you can gather more than enough stuff to craft 4 Hercules/Requin equivalents. If you are in a somewhat functioning clan of three or more people I'd venture you can get that done in a single day. ('Day here meaning an hour or less of collecting resources and hauling them to your shipyard.)

Suddenly the difference doesn't seem as massive anymore, does it?

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3 hours ago, admin said:

DLC Ships give content. And will give more content. Claimants who claim those weak ships (by % deaths) are PW2 are constantly asked by reverse to duel him yet no-one yet accepted the bet. I guess they are only p2w on the forum (not in game)

DLC gives content yes but what kind of content? You mention Reverse, he is a good player of course but I have seen his streams. They are boring. Not him, he speaks Russian mostly which I don't speak but I am sure he is really interesting and funny guy :) But the streams are: sail sail sail, see ship, sink it, get stuff, sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. Maybe PB, maybe Patrol (sail less, see more smaller ships, sink them, get stuff). Then it's back to sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. For him and players like him yes DLC is probably great! He just wants more ships served up so he can sink them, so he loves DLC and loves Patrols cos he loves sinking ships! That's his 'content'. Then I hear you say 'DLC ships give content' and other players saying 'Let's have Nassau Patrol every day! Yay!' and it seems you only listen to them.

But there is another Naval Action. I remember when I first played, exploring this massive map. I remember Kolte's guide to solo PvP, about how he would stake out possible targets, look for likely trade runs and patrol them. I remember all the different kinds of players being into different stuff. The outlaw Pirates, the hit and run KPR gankers, the far flung areas of the map explorers, ship builders, traders, solo players, duellists even the meglomaniac RVR Warlords were fun. This game isn't ONLY about serving up as many ships as possible to sink, sometimes having to wait a bit and work stuff out and plan operations is the best bit and knowing you are not always guaranteed a fight when you might want one makes it all the better when you do get one. Doing the hauling, sourcing the woods, gathering the mats, trading the blueprint made sailing the ship more fun. Patrols, DLC ships, Legends it's all fine but it's all the same and not very interesting tbh. The recent comments you have made all rely on this 'the more ships you sink in a day the more fun you must have had' mantra, like that's just  'common sense' and written, but it simply isn't true, not for me anyway and so much more is being squeezed out.

Have your DLC if you need the money, I will tolerate it, I will even buy them, but please don't try and tell me it's for my benefit. Could you please spend a bit of time thinking about the other kinds of 'content' too? A long line of casual players in DLC ships to sink inside a circle and who don't really give a shit anyway? that might be what Reverse wants but it's not what I want and there are others like me (maybe more than you think?).

If your game goes stratospheric and the server is always full, please open another server, but this time with no Patrols, and no DLC Ships, no towing and no teleporting and where a solo player can get hold of a little bit of teak if he's prepared to haul it.  I want to play on that one! I will even pay for the Server space! How much does it cost? :)

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7 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I dont think insurance covers the cost of guns, it hardly covers the cost of the ship.

I did the simple math on a corvette,  maybe you've done the numbers on bigger ships? I'd like to see those numbers...

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

You win because you're replacement ship costs nothing. 

Pretty much this. Also it is not a one time thing, the player using crafted ships has to pay the cost / time to rebuild every time he loses a ship, while the DLC user gets it for free every time and can instead spend his game time / resources on upgrades, repairs and other things. It adds up over time and since every player has a finite time to play available per day, no matter of it being 1 hour or 10, getting up to 5 ships ( with unique stats and performance ) for free compared to someone who has to build his ships, it's most definitely pay2win. It is like you are buying an infinite amount of ingame resources and labour hours for a one time payment of real cash ( completely ignoring the fact that those ships have unique stats ).

Pay2progess is for example when you  buy a xp booster that allows you to unlock the next ship faster than someone who does not pay. You get there faster once but you both reach the same goal / ship and fight eachother on equal terms once you are both there. It doesn't hello kitty the other guy over on a daily basis indefinitely.

I liked DLC ships when we had 2 small but now we get 5 already, one of them being a 3-4th rate. If I continue to play, I'll only use DLC ships. I feel bad about the fools who will craft their ships and actually risk something, while I throw my fleet of free, disposable and low reward ships at them.

The only way this would be balanced, fair and compatible with the rest of the game is if they made DLC ships underperforming compared to crafted ships or only permits. This will never happend, however.

Kind of amusing how they made crafted ships need those permits, some of which are RNG dependant and thus rare too, and even harder to get good woods to build them at the same time, isn't it? So you get better ships easier and faster, the more DLCs you own but crafting certain ships is made harder and more difficult. Seems about right.

Edited by Sovereign
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Who the hell sails with 4 Herc in fleet....  you deserve to have them all sunk if that is the case...

 

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19 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

DLC gives content yes but what kind of content? You mention Reverse, he is a good player of course but I have seen his streams. They are boring. Not him, he speaks Russian mostly which I don't speak but I am sure he is really interesting and funny guy :) But the streams are: sail sail sail, see ship, sink it, get stuff, sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. Maybe PB, maybe Patrol (sail less, see more smaller ships, sink them, get stuff). Then it's back to sail sail sail see ship, sink it, get stuff. For him and players like him yes DLC is probably great! He just wants more ships served up so he can sink them, so he loves DLC and loves Patrols cos he loves sinking ships! That's his 'content'. Then I hear you say 'DLC ships give content' and other players saying 'Let's have Nassau Patrol every day! Yay!' and it seems you only listen to them.

But there is another Naval Action. I remember when I first played, exploring this massive map. I remember Kolte's guide to solo PvP, about how he would stake out possible targets, look for likely trade runs and patrol them. I remember all the different kinds of players being into different stuff. The outlaw Pirates, the hit and run KPR gankers, the far flung areas of the map explorers, ship builders, traders, solo players, duellists even the meglomaniac RVR Warlords were fun. This game isn't ONLY about serving up as many ships as possible to sink, sometimes having to wait a bit and work stuff out and plan operations is the best bit and knowing you are not always guaranteed a fight when you might want one makes it all the better when you do get one. Doing the hauling, sourcing the woods, gathering the mats, trading the blueprint made sailing the ship more fun. Patrols, DLC ships, Legends it's all fine but it's all the same and not very interesting tbh. The recent comments you have made all rely on this 'the more ships you sink in a day the more fun you must have had' mantra, like that's just  'common sense' and written, but it simply isn't true, not for me anyway and so much more is being squeezed out.

I completely agree. If I want to sink a bunch of ships that have no value and thus their destruction no meaning, I can go play garbage like wows. NA could be so much more than that. It's like they want to sell Legends inside NA now... The 2 small DLC ships we had were just perfect. Should have added Pandora and leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

You win because you're replacement ship costs nothing. 

Do you remember times of free 3rd rates sailing in ow just waiting to be capped? And how good pvp with OTHER ships was bcs there was that free alternative, so you could do more risky  fights freely? Yeah i do. 

It was taken from all players, now only avaiable to players that pay extra.

NOT FAIR AT ALL.

Edited by manuva85

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6 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Pretty much this.

I'd take it another way too. if one side with DLC ships vs another side with NO DLC ships. 

If the Non-DLC side wins, they don't feel like they economically accomplished anything - the DLC side has less of an economic stake in the battle leading to a feeling of a wasted victory.

If the Non-DLC side loses, they get frustrated because they have to go through the ropes to replace their ship, while the DLC side continues stomping around - then replacing on a whim.

Did it bring more PvP? Absolutely, I won't disagree there. But....I can't help but feel it's fake.

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10 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Did it bring more PvP? Absolutely, I won't disagree there. But....I can't help but feel it's fake.

with the open world side of things in mind (not moba pov) it always felt like quantity over quality in the recent past.

I prefer the quality side. When it was possible to deny a 1st rate even to be build. when sinking one of those meant something. I gladly keep sailing 2h for that feeling.

but convince strikes...

Edited by z4ys
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+ for "Drunken Sailor" DLC. It gives you one sealed bottle per day.

Jokes aside. I think you hang the DLC thing way too high. The herc was not unbeatable and nowadays you should ask why you have bought it because it's absolutely worthless. I think it's good to have ships that can be redeemed, because then you have chance to sail out even when you're bankrupt. Since last megapatches AI had become very hard to beat, the thing is that nobody recognized this yet because all have 1st rates which can easily destroy some AI's for profit. But when you have to start over in a cutter after the wipe, you'll be very thankful for a redeemable ship I'm sure.

Remember times of ship notes, there was the wasa and it really was a hype when it came out but now nobody really cares for them. I think the new DLC ships will do the same. I personal have nothing against them if you mind just board them and include them into your navy.

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29 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I did the simple math on a corvette,  maybe you've done the numbers on bigger ships? I'd like to see those numbers...

I just did the calculation for a Niagara and it cost 10,022 Reals to build an Oak/Oak one buying all the materials from NPC, If you factor in the LH based on 500hrs for 2500 doubloons and a sell rate of 4 Reals for Doubloon (NPC price) that would add another 3720 Reals and we havent even considered the cost of the permit which is hidden behind PvP RNG, while the last Niagara I lost which was Teak/WO paid out 4423 Reals in insurance around a third of my cost to build and that is not counting cannons.

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15 minutes ago, mikawa said:

 I personal have nothing against them if you mind just board them and include them into your navy.

AI doesn't sail DLC ships to harvest, and you can't capture them anyhow. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I just did the calculation for a Niagara and it cost 10,022 Reals to build an Oak/Oak one buying all the materials from NPC, If you factor in the LH based on 500hrs for 2500 doubloons and a sell rate of 4 Reals for Doubloon (NPC price) that would add another 3720 Reals and we havent even considered the cost of the permit which is hidden behind PvP RNG, while the last Niagara I lost which was Teak/WO paid out 4423 Reals in insurance around a third of my cost to build and that is not counting cannons.

I'm looking at it too, not done yet (for Essex).

I'm sure buying stuff breaks the bank, player or NPC. I disregard LH as I always have more LH than I ever need (solo crafting for own use). Want to disregard doub and permit "cost" as those things are put in place for other reasons than eco.

We agree that permit and doub ships with rare woods wouldn't make you break even with insurance, not even close.

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Ok.

I'm not saying you do, but I'm suspecting there is a tiny possibility you have a blindspot when it comes to resources, crafting and insurance.

I have the two silly little current DLCs but haven't used them against players yet. I've used and lost my own crafted ships instead. Right now losing a ship costs me almost nothing. Unless you buy stupid expensive woods or other stupid expensive resources from players you get almost every dime back. Yes, yes, oak/oak is "useless" and "terrible" (it's not) but if you stick with things you can extract yourself or steal from bots or players you can even come out of a ship loss with a net profit because of insurance rates.

When I start using my bigger DLCs I will always lose the guns and get nothing back for them, so using my own crafted ships will save me money while going with my DLC will guarantee me losing more money.

Sure it'll be faster to just click out a DLC, but even if I have to go to extract and haul oak and hemp it will take me no more than 5-10 minutes of engaging eco gameplay to click out a new ship. More often crafting a ship doesn't take longer than clicking a DLC because we usually keep stuff for at least 10 ships at the ready.

Guns make up about half the cost of a ship, so you should start worrying about us DLC clickers losing our reals while crafters get their cash back. How's that for a plot twist, eh?!

Even not considering the resources it is plain and simple P2W model when you can pay money and get to the same goal(a ship) faster. I am sorry brother but there is no debate there. You will never be able to justify it even if the ships add 1000% more pvp. I stand by boycotting all dlcs that are against the the soul of this game. Admin already said the DLC ships are a major part of pvp and that is only 2 ships. It will get worse. I want GLs to even add ship of the line dlcs and whatever they want to do in the future but no like this. If the trinco was made a dlc ship tomorrow and removed from crafting I would still persist. I guess I should sail the indefatigable a bit more. Suits me :p 

Even if we could redeem permits and had to craft the ship they model would still be p2w considering other permits in game require ingame to to get them. Its bad but acceptable because sandbox games have issues with adding dlcs in general. 

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52 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

Do you remember times of free 3rd rates sailing in ow just waiting to be capped? And how good pvp with OTHER ships was bcs there was that free alternative, so you could do more risky  fights freely? Yeah i do. 

It was taken from all players, now only avaiable to players that pay extra.

NOT FAIR AT ALL.

personally I think that was for other reasons. In our clan we had to do it because we could not craft bellonas fast enough. To few crafters to much demand. 

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55 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Who the hell sails with 4 Herc in fleet....  you deserve to have them all sunk if that is the case...

 

You do not have any dlc ships do you ?

You send your dlc ship to fleet but on the docks only ! so you can redeem one more,repeat it up to 4 ships. So you can have 4 dlc ships + 1 still redemeeble ready at any time.

So your docks will have 4 Hercules to be used in let's say Nassau Patrol, and anytime you lose one of them, you can redeem one more on the same day, so you can use up to 5 Hercules in Nassau patrol. So you can do it for free with best woods. 

and you did not know this :) 

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6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Even not considering the resources it is plain and simple P2W model when you can pay money and get to the same goal(a ship) faster. I am sorry brother but there is no debate there. You will never be able to justify it even if the ships add 1000% more pvp. I stand by boycotting all dlcs that are against the the soul of this game. Admin already said the DLC ships are a major part of pvp and that is only 2 ships. It will get worse. I want GLs to even add ship of the line dlcs and whatever they want to do in the future but no like this. If the trinco was made a dlc ship tomorrow and removed from crafting I would still persist. I guess I should sail the indefatigable a bit more. Suits me 😛

Even if we could redeem permits and had to craft the ship they model would still be p2w considering other permits in game require ingame to to get them. Its bad but acceptable because sandbox games have issues with adding dlcs in general. 

Ok, you win. There can be no debate when you reserve the right to define the baseline truth and sit on the only possible interpretation of said truths in relation to everything. 

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10 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Ok, you win. There can be no debate when you reserve the right to define the baseline truth and sit on the only possible interpretation of said truths in relation to everything. 

A Fact cannot be combated with reasoning, for it is logic itself. Truth is something which depends on a person's perspective. Its quite odd you said that that way because I was just reading about Facts vs Truth 3 days ago. 

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4 hours ago, Salty Sails said:

Just wondering in what ship can you sink a LRQ with proper ugprades and decent captain ?

LAS taylor? Never heard of him...

Do you have a fight against better players? With good woods, and best upgrades?

Bad players are still bad players.  Hell I demasted a Herc with a Trader Brig one time just out side Little Harbor area.  If he didn't have two AI sinking my other two trade ships like a dick, I would prob of stayed and camped him until I sunk him.  Just cause some one is in a DLC ship does not make them a great player.  Though I think he had no clue who I was at it was an alt of mine and not a name seen by many even those that sail with me.   I'm an average player in my books and I beaten LRQ's with none same sailing profiles.  You snap that front mast before they can run and they are sitting ducks in water.   That is exactly what I did with that herc when he was chasing me.  Not every one runs Pirate on there LRQ's either, in fact i don't run it on any of mine. I run French Rig instead cause I know how weak that front mast is.   Not every one makes there ships to run away from every fight.  I have some that are Cedar/Teak you won't chatch unless your of a softer word, but those are for solo trade ship hunting (board fit too) and others are just Teak/Wo for battle other ships (the guys with carros).  If you are smart and you face some one with carros with longs you can easily control that fight.  This is all not the point of this post anyway so a bit off topic, we beaten the LRQ thing to death so need to move on.  I just want to see a refit of it that is more trader than raider.....

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2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

A Fact cannot be combated with reasoning, for it is logic itself. Truth is something which depends on a person's perspective. Its quite odd you said that that way because I was just reading about Facts vs Truth 3 days ago. 

Did the book instruct you to equate Hachi's truth with objective and logical facts?

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

I'm looking at it too, not done yet (for Essex).

I'm sure buying stuff breaks the bank, player or NPC. I disregard LH as I always have more LH than I ever need (solo crafting for own use). Want to disregard doub and permit "cost" as those things are put in place for other reasons than eco.

We agree that permit and doub ships with rare woods wouldn't make you break even with insurance, not even close.

I have redone calculation for Niagara using material extraction costs and not counting LH or permit costs and it still works out at 5481 Reals to build and you only get back 4432, so you are still short before you start to count cannons.

When you throw in permit cost, cannons, rare woods cost and LH you make a big loss as compared to someone who can redeem a rare wood ship daily and that does not even take into account the time to gather the materials to your crafting port and then you have your single tow/day (also add the cost of the tow) to where you want it, while the DLC player can redeem his ship where he needs it.

Edit: in case you have not done it yet an Essex works out at 19282 for Oak/Oak not counting LH, permits, guns etc.

Edited by Archaos
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