National Diplomacy forum

[Koltes]

Not so long ago National News forum was threatened to be removed due to all the smack talk. Everyone seems to think they have to chip in their pint of salt. The puprpose of National News was to keep it clean from same type of discussions you can find in General forum. 

But it would be great to have a forum that contains ONLY national conversations on a clan/nation level free from all the comments from people who doesnt even get involved, doesnt play or from another nation.

Therefore I propose the following:

- Nation News renamed to Nation News & Discussions.

- Add Nation Affairs forum and allow only leaders and designated diplomats from 15+ member clans to post on them. It will strictly be diplomacy channel. Clean from smack talks.

- Diplomats must have a clan tag listed in their signature. Forum Diplomat tag assigned to them allowing to post. Other members can view only

Edited July 24, 2017 by koltes

[Twig]

Dont think that would be a wise decision - Even between clans is a lot of bad blood.

Further, most diplomatic talks are between both partners and not for the community to get read.

[Koltes]

23 minutes ago, Twig said:

Dont think that would be a wise decision - Even between clans is a lot of bad blood.

Further, most diplomatic talks are between both partners and not for the community to get read.

Not everything needs to be hidden. Playing NA RvR for some time tells me one thing for sure - open discussions are the best in general.
Are you a clan leader or your clan's spokes person? Genuine question. Are you aware how hard it is for clan leaders to get stuff organised or agreed on juts because of all the smack talk coming from people that are not even involved? Its like they do this on purpose to stop things happen between the nations.
People will still have their Nation News forum nothing is taken away from them. Nothing changed on that part.
I know for a fact that lots of clan leaders and spokespeople would wish to have a clean discussions on the politics. Else there will be no diplomacy in the game if Ivan and John has to troll everything that other clans trying to agree on.

I'm not asking to remove something from people. I'm asking for additional tools outside the game to allow diplomats to do their job. This would create a lot better relationships between players of different nations

Edited July 24, 2017 by koltes

[Powderhorn]

Coming at it from a moderator's standpoint:  What you propose, and who you propose to include, typically involves the vast majority of the reports I have to handle.  It is not the small clans that bring the egos into play.  It is not the individual players.  It is the large clans, and particularly the large clan leaders that seem to have a "chip on their shoulder."

[Hethwill]

National Diplomacy can be treated through private channels away from Naval Action umbrella.

National News is public announcement posters. They can de defiled by rotten tomatoes and bad eggs.

 

[Koltes]

Thank you moderators. I don't know how much both of you involved in RvR and National politics (I know that RedDuke for example like his hunting and doesn't participate much in RvR), but I can tell you this - having this forum section where only clan leaders and diplos talk will make it million times less toxic and will help us to communicate better and easier cutting all the trash from every single troll on the forum.

From moderator's standpoint this will NOT create more trolls or complains. The toxic leaders of the clans that you have to deal with you still have to deal with today anyway. But the Diplo forum will cut down all the other trolls. Can you elaborate on this? Specifically how this will create more reports than what you currently have if trolls cant post? As for your comment Duke about rotten tomatoes and eggs isn't it why you moderators having hard time dealing with all the crap?

From game community's standpoint if something is required to be done by the players, while it requires no time to set up and minimal involvement, but helps to improve the community interaction argument that its going to be hard to moderate sort of a weak one.Moderating forums is a complete separate issue (which has non related ways of sorting) and should not stop us players to have the content we want/need.

On any forum it takes 5 mins to create such section. It takes another 5 mins to create Diplo tag. Please don't tell me this is hard.

@Fortunatus Wright @Christendom @Duncan McFail @7Grams @Zep the Black @Llewellyn Jones RN @Chijohnaok @Msk @CheshireCat @Savaneta @gorven @amplify @Wraith @Lionshaft @Teutonic 
NPG, CKA, BLACK, ICS, BORK etc etc


What do you guys think. Do we need a forum section where only clan leaders and their Diplos can post? Maybe private altogether? Or open to view? If yes +1 it. If not, then fair enough

[Rhodry Heidenrich]

2 hours ago, Powderhorn said:

Coming at it from a moderator's standpoint:  What you propose, and who you propose to include, typically involves the vast majority of the reports I have to handle.  It is not the small clans that bring the egos into play.  It is not the individual players.  It is the large clans, and particularly the large clan leaders that seem to have a "chip on their shoulder."

Couldn't agree with you more. 

Seems to me that closed door diplomacy has been working "just fine" here in NA without a special sub forum.. If those who fancy themselves of great importance within the game want to have their talks not muddied by the unwanted opinions of "lesser" players, then that's what closed Team Speak/Discord channels are for. If you want to discuss diplomacy in the open, then it needs to be an open forum where even the little guy can speak up and give input. 

It's really not that hard to self-filter some of the completely out-of-kilter smack talk anyway. Or if it's really out-to-lunch, annoy the mod team by smashing that "report" button. 

 

[Fastidius]

I agree completely onboard with the fact that News should be closed to diplomats posting.  The actual discussions up to that point should probably be in discord as there is limited group security on forums in general.  IE French/Dane diplomacy discussions should not be viewable by anyone but their diplomats and the outcomes go in the news section.

 

As a person who does a lot of diplomacies and back channelling through various games, i have to be as unbiased as possible in discussions and merely clarify needs/wants and stances.  I personally have had situations I have completely disagreed with go through because the active parties wanted it.  The reality is that everyone has a voice and an ego but diplomacy is not about wants it's about what is best for the game at the time.

 

Personally, i only use the global news forum for announcements.  It is not a good place for open conversation with EVERYONE chipping is as can be seen in various posts. 

I don't think diplomacy itself should be able to be done on forums that are open to other nations though which is why Discord is a better tool for it IMO.

 

 

[Christendom]

Nothing gets accomplished on the forums.  Stick to back channel diplomacy.  

[Koltes]

20 minutes ago, Fastidius said:

I agree completely onboard with the fact that News should be closed to diplomats posting.  The actual discussions up to that point should probably be in discord as there is limited group security on forums in general.  IE French/Dane diplomacy discussions should not be viewable by anyone but their diplomats and the outcomes go in the news section.

 

As a person who does a lot of diplomacies and back channelling through various games, i have to be as unbiased as possible in discussions and merely clarify needs/wants and stances.  I personally have had situations I have completely disagreed with go through because the active parties wanted it.  The reality is that everyone has a voice and an ego but diplomacy is not about wants it's about what is best for the game at the time.

 

Personally, i only use the global news forum for announcements.  It is not a good place for open conversation with EVERYONE chipping is as can be seen in various posts. 

I don't think diplomacy itself should be able to be done on forums that are open to other nations though which is why Discord is a better tool for it IMO.

 

 

Agree. People that actually do the diplo work have way batter idea whats is involved in the process. Only that Discord is a nation wide tool not the server wide and again taking players away from the official forum. Also National Affairs is more of an announcement rather than discussion board. Discussions, debates and trolling can continue on Nation News. Other than that its all good.

 

46 minutes ago, Rhodry Heidenrich said:

Couldn't agree with you more. 

Seems to me that closed door diplomacy has been working "just fine" here in NA without a special sub forum.. If those who fancy themselves of great importance within the game want to have their talks not muddied by the unwanted opinions of "lesser" players, then that's what closed Team Speak/Discord channels are for. If you want to discuss diplomacy in the open, then it needs to be an open forum where even the little guy can speak up and give input. 

It's really not that hard to self-filter some of the completely out-of-kilter smack talk anyway. Or if it's really out-to-lunch, annoy the mod team by smashing that "report" button. 

 

And you personally done how much diplomacy work? Do you have first hand experience and knowledge of what's involved? Did you run a clan? Have you made political decisions? Did you have to discuss politics with other clans AND nations on behalf of your clan or even nation? Have you ever experienced when you about to make a deal with a nation when trolls jump on board and start stirring shit to the point when it denies any possibility for two parties to make any legit political discussion and agreement?
Not trolling you. Just asking a genuine question to evaluate how much should I rely on your opinion?

No one said that opinions don't matter. That's why National News renamed to National News and Discussions and that's where everybody can jump on board as it is now. Nothing is changed for you personally.
There are clan leaders who wants to be able to discuss matters on behalf of their clans without interruptions. Wont make this section for us on official forum? We will find a place outside driving traffic away achieving same thing. Will that be better for the community? I don't think so



 

[Anolytic]

There was once talk of a National News forum where only pre-approved "content creators" would be able to start topics (but anyone would be able to chip in and comment on them). It may seem that this idea has been silently scrapped.

I do not support the proposal to have a forum where both OPs and commenters are restricted. Diplomacy and other meta-gaming is just content to the game, created by the players themselves, and anyone should be able to comment on that content, creating more drama and more content.

5 hours ago, koltes said:

- Diplomats must have a clan tag listed in their signature. Forum Diplomat tag assigned to them allowing to post. Other members can view only

I very strongly disagree with the idea to have a forum tag or in-game tag for diplomats. It would create a special group of players and/or forum users with special privileges. It would only create a group of entitled brats thinking that their word is worth more than any other's in all sorts of situations. "Diplomat" in an unofficial position and should remain so. The status as such is gained by having other players' trust over time, but can also be quickly lost. A forum group named diplomats would make it hard(er) to switch out diplomats for a nation. It would let diplomats hold onto their position simply because they are the ones with access to this speciall forum. And players who got this tag would feel that they had been given some sort of official privileges by the game devs and would quickly start acting like their positions were official, as well as start thinking that they could go around and make political decisions virtually on their own.

[Rhodry Heidenrich]

41 minutes ago, koltes said:

 

 

And you personally done how much diplomacy work? Do you have first hand experience and knowledge of what's involved? Did you run a clan? Have you made political decisions? Did you have to discuss politics with other clans AND nations on behalf of your clan or even nation? Have you ever experienced when you about to make a deal with a nation when trolls jump on board and start stirring shit to the point when it denies any possibility for two parties to make any legit political discussion and agreement?
Not trolling you. Just asking a genuine question to evaluate how much should I rely on your opinion?





 

In Naval Action? Not a whole lot. 

In other games I've played previously? Yes I've run a clan. Yes I've been a clan officer. Yes I've dealt with clan politics, so I know what kind of cat-herding, noise ridden nonsense it can be. That's why i advocate just doing the stuff you don't want to be public in non public places where nobody can see it and therefore not offer up an unwanted snipe. Otherwise, if you post it in the open deal with some of the goofy crap that comes with it. 

 

[Koltes]

12 minutes ago, Rhodry Heidenrich said:

In Naval Action? Not a whole lot. 

In other games I've played previously? Yes I've run a clan. Yes I've been a clan officer. Yes I've dealt with clan politics, so I know what kind of cat-herding, noise ridden nonsense it can be. That's why i advocate just doing the stuff you don't want to be public in non public places where nobody can see it and therefore not offer up an unwanted snipe. Otherwise, if you post it in the open deal with some of the goofy crap that comes with it. 

 

Hence why I propose to have this section private available to diplos only.
Look this same thing can be achieved outside of Naval Action community. I can go and make a website on Enjin or GameLaunch and invite diplos to represent their clans. We will make this as a standing board etc etc. Other individuals will see the results of this affairs. Question is, why do we have to do that if we already have forum, that could run a private section like that? Why do we have to go away from community website in order to get community tools?

I have worked as diplo in EVE on the forums and in WOT forums (when global map was the thing) and its not matter that game we play, we just need a private forum section where clan representatives can talk without global trolling.

[Skully]

1 hour ago, Fastidius said:

Personally, i only use the global news forum for announcements.  It is not a good place for open conversation with EVERYONE chipping is as can be seen in various posts. 

I don't think diplomacy itself should be able to be done on forums that are open to other nations though which is why Discord is a better tool for it IMO.

Or some other forum controlled by the diplomats.

@koltes I don't think we should burden the mods with anything diplo. Especially if "clan leaders" expect they can shout themselves in. 

[Koltes]

1 minute ago, Skully said:

Or some other forum controlled by the diplomats.

@koltes I don't think we should burden the mods with anything diplo. Especially if "clan leaders" expect they can shout themselves in. 

This mostly happens when other non involved trolls jump in and start throwing their 2c in. Stirring crap and winding everyone up. Under those conditions its pretty hard to keep diplomatic dialog going and all nations and their players actually suffer from it.

When we represent our clan I want to be able to release some information like an announcement where comments are disabled. People can look and discuss elsewhere

[Rebrall]

19 minutes ago, koltes said:

This mostly happens when other non involved trolls jump in and start throwing their 2c in. Stirring crap and winding everyone up. Under those conditions its pretty hard to keep diplomatic dialog going and all nations and their players actually suffer from it.

When we represent our clan I want to be able to release some information like an announcement where comments are disabled. People can look and discuss elsewhere

@koltes So you want to have more of a Announcement section added to the global news? so you can upload a statement and know one can comment sort of like uploading a video on you tube and blocking comments. rather then a diplo/clan leader section and have it locked to specific forum users also? i dont see this as an entirely bad thing but then you have to create groups in the forum as a clan  group or something along those lines   

Edited July 25, 2017 by Rebrall
grammer

[Skully]

@koltes I can see the merit and the need, but it can not be burdened onto the mods.

Maybe somebody with technical knowledge can write an IPS4 plugin to set flags based on (to be exposed) Naval Action API Clan information?

At least it would bring things a step closer without introducing manual maintenance of some sort (burdened onto the wrong party).

Edited July 25, 2017 by Skully

[Koltes]

Just now, Rebrall said:

So you want to have more of a Announcement section to the global news, so you can upload a statement and know one can comment sort of like uploading a video on you tube and blocking comments, rather then a diplo/clan leader section and have it locked to specific forum users also? i dont see this as an entirely bad thing but then you have to create groups in the forum as a clan  group or something along those lines   

Sort of. If I want to make an announcement from the BLACK clan, like update leadership page, standings with other nations/clans im ok if other diplomats will comment, because this job is usually given to people who are opposite to trolls. Diplos should not be posting just their own opinions. They are clan representatives. They delivery clans standings on certain points in form of announcements and everybody else will take that as where the entire clan stands, not just some random individual. We don't mind constructive remarks and opinions and proper diplos will have to represent their clans even if they disagree with their own clan politics so the info postes should be first discussed and confirmed by the clan's leadership.

Then everybody knows its legit standings of the particular clan. Right now Ivan has posted one thing and got trolled by John from the same clan which was picked up by trolls all over the place. When in fact that clan's true standing is something else, but no one has any idea what it is

[Teutonic]

On one hand I like the idea. On the other hand I don't want to restrict other players from posting what they want to say on a public forum such as this.

Essentially what seems to be proposed can also be done on a discord server or through private messages?

I like the idea, although I'm not sure if it's something we really need.

EDIT: I get heated at times, so I know others that would get more heated...and the mess that national news becomes would roll over to whatever restricted area we had for diplomacy or clan leaders or whatever. Which is something i fear and prefer if it stays in one section like it does currently.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Teutonic

[Christendom]

Use the NA discord imo.  And have an approved Diplomat room or something. 

Forum should be for finalized agreements

[Archaos]

2 hours ago, koltes said:

This mostly happens when other non involved trolls jump in and start throwing their 2c in. Stirring crap and winding everyone up. Under those conditions its pretty hard to keep diplomatic dialog going and all nations and their players actually suffer from it.

When we represent our clan I want to be able to release some information like an announcement where comments are disabled. People can look and discuss elsewhere

Though your proposal may have merits, I would have to say in light of the thread you posted the other day regarding declared victory and terms, I think it is a bad idea. This would allow you post something controversial and others would not be able to comment on it. This is a forum where there should be open discussion. I agree that can also lead to trolling and derailing of threads, but censorship is not the solution. As the mods have pointed out majority of the slang and abuse matches happen between leaders of the bigger clans anyway.

I know personally I try to keep personal abuse and trolling out of my responses to threads, but that does not mean that people like my responses and that can still get people worked up.

[Hethwill]

I do not see the need to have a belt of police holding out the crowd when you make the speech unless it violates the rules set to use the forum

If there were no alternatives, by all means, I'd support it. But there's enough communication channels out there so diplomats can get together and discuss.

Clan thread are open, nation council thread are open, diplomat names are there. It is easy to reach them through the forum private messages or in game by private chat.

All "serious" politicians will get their paperwork done and reach out, band together in some comms and then and only then post the public announcement on National News board.

P.S. - You have no idea of my playstyle Koltes sir but this you can know, I will tell you - I play honest. I like being underdog. I like challenge. Been working so far.

 

[Skully]

@koltes @Fastidius I think I got it working http://forum.game-labs.net/blogs/entry/59-a-blog-entry-on-a-private-blog/

Note to self: do not allow embedding. 

[Lonar]

The Idea is not bad, but we would need 10 more Mods to keep that Subforum clean ...

[Chijohnaok]

13 hours ago, koltes said:

Thank you moderators. I don't know how much both of you involved in RvR and National politics (I know that RedDuke for example like his hunting and doesn't participate much in RvR), but I can tell you this - having this forum section where only clan leaders and diplos talk will make it million times less toxic and will help us to communicate better and easier cutting all the trash from every single troll on the forum.

From moderator's standpoint this will NOT create more trolls or complains. The toxic leaders of the clans that you have to deal with you still have to deal with today anyway. But the Diplo forum will cut down all the other trolls. Can you elaborate on this? Specifically how this will create more reports than what you currently have if trolls cant post? As for your comment Duke about rotten tomatoes and eggs isn't it why you moderators having hard time dealing with all the crap?

From game community's standpoint if something is required to be done by the players, while it requires no time to set up and minimal involvement, but helps to improve the community interaction argument that its going to be hard to moderate sort of a weak one.Moderating forums is a complete separate issue (which has non related ways of sorting) and should not stop us players to have the content we want/need.

On any forum it takes 5 mins to create such section. It takes another 5 mins to create Diplo tag. Please don't tell me this is hard.

@Fortunatus Wright @Christendom @Duncan McFail @7Grams @Zep the Black @Llewellyn Jones RN @Chijohnaok @Msk @CheshireCat @Savaneta @gorven @amplify @Wraith @Lionshaft @Teutonic 
NPG, CKA, BLACK, ICS, BORK etc etc


What do you guys think. Do we need a forum section where only clan leaders and their Diplos can post? Maybe private altogether? Or open to view? If yes +1 it. If not, then fair enough

I don't think that such a sub-forum on this Naval Action website is a necessity.

This website is (to my knowledge) owned by Game Labs and its purpose is to support and facilitate the game development.  I think that creating such a subforum would then (by implication) require it to be moderated.  I'm not sure whether Game Labs would want to undertake such a responsibility.

As some others have stated, there are already some 'back channels' which allow diplomatic contacts.

Additionally, before the big Patch 10.0/server changes, I had requested (and gotten) Mustaparta (owner of a currently populated Naval Action DISCORD) to set up a "Diplomacy" channel on that DISCORD.  The idea was that it would provide for a place where the diplomats from the various nations could interact with other diplos.  The channel was set up to require a diplomat tag before one could participate in that channel.   I checked today and that channel is no longer in that DISCORD (probably because there was no one using it).  If there were sufficient interest in resurrecting something like that AND IF IT WERE ACTUALLY USED, then I suspect that Mustaparta might be convinced to resurrect a DIPLOMACY channel there.

For those that would like to check out the DISCORD that I referred to here is a link to it:

https://discord.gg/R5uJ6nz