Forthcoming shipbuilding changes [Heavily Moderated]

[Hethwill]

We even hinted at the Tournament all the time as being PvP One ! To make clear that was a community project from that server alone. I was hoping that by the end of the PvP1 tournament someone on Two would've setup one and even adjusting to any mistakes we've done, Texas.

 

But I digress, Back on topic.

 

____________

 

Ship building changes - naval architects of the future.

 

Question for the Devs regarding the system:

 

- have alterations of existing ships been considered ?

 

Example: I buy a new ship at a good price but say I want to change some characteristics.

[Peleliu]

I am a fairly new player, but have invested a lot of my time on the trading and crafting aspects of the game. The shipbuilding changes are certainly interesting and tie into things I have been thinking about for some time. Perhaps the following suggestions for a player focused economy have some merit:

 

 

Blueprints:

     Blueprints should be a gold sink. Remove chance drops from crafting and simply make all blueprints (including the current event only BPs) available for purchase in each national capital. We should be focused on building and fighting ships not on making countless useless ships in the hopes of getting a BP drop. Of course BPs seem an unneccessary complication anyway. We could just drop the idea of BPs altogether and focus on crafting and tinkering with the ships.

 

 

Ships:

     NPC sales should be basic cutters only. You want something bigger and better you need to buy it from a player or take it on the high seas. I like the ideas presented so far for more customization. I would like to see even more...like the ability to add or subtract chasers to anything (for a suitable penalty of course). 

 

 

Grey vs Gold:

     I am one of the guilty ones who makes only the worst or only the best. The multi-tier system isn't working as intended. I am in favor of a single tier system. Player ships are fully customizable. Captured ships should be random attributes, but within parameters determined by ship class. I am also torn on the durability issue. As a crafter I favor 1 durability. As a captain I favor 5. Perhaps durabilty should be removed and turned into a % based chance of total loss. Lowering the chance of loss can be part of the customization process such as hull strength or crew quality.

 

 

Buildings & NPC Goods:

     Remove player resource extraction and buildings from the game. It seems to add nothing to gameplay. The money sink can be shifted to blueprints. Focus instead on the crafting and trading side. Raw resources should be produced only by npcs. Imported European/world goods should be available only from captured enemy traders (and perhaps limited supplies at national capitals). Everything else from cannons to Marines should be player made or received from broken ships. Traders can keep up the trading game by moving goods around exactly as they do now to meet player and npc supply/demand. I once thought fishing was a cute addition, but it is more and more a distraction. Just make fish a raw resource.

 

 

Outposts:

     Eliminating BPs and resource extraction would mean you need to add another gold sink. Perhaps add maintenance costs to outposts other than the capital. Failure to pay upkeep would lock up assets in that outpost until unil the fee is paid.

 

 

Labor:

     This, not money, is the true throttle for ship production and it should remain so. It is much easier to tinker with one factor like labor than it is for all the other factors that make up crafting in the game. 

[admin]

 

In EVE all players pay the same price to play the game - all players have equal access to the "good" gear. Grinders might have "more" gear but not "better" gear.

In NA all "testers" pay the same price to play the game - SOME have access to "better" gear.

 

 

Magnum.

Tommy is right.. this is ridiculous.

 

First

Event ships were invented by EVE in 2003

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Special_Edition_Ships

Those ships could be only received in tournaments and they are doing it every year since then.

The 2016 tournament recently ended and given out special ships not available to grinders https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/atxiv-prizes-and-draw-results/

 

Second

Before and even in the beginning of summer 2015 you accused us on favoring swedish (when i sailed for sweden) then month later danes, then pirates, then americans, dutch, then spanish, then french, then pirates, now rubli and other tournament winners.

 

I don't understand the hints.. do you want us only to favor British? The joke is getting old. Maybe its time for you to accept that we favor everyone in this game, including you. 

Or just say it as it is.. you don't like tournament winners and don't want us to give tournament prizes to anyone

(including small battle challenge winners - we chipped in to the pool of that player organized event).

 

PS. and its not like they are not usable by everyone. You can just buy them. or board them from people who have them. They are not Bind on Equip. I know people are selling them and we see transactions in logs.

[Lockheed]

Magnum.

Tommy is right.. this is ridiculous.

 

First

Event ships were invented by EVE in 2003

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Special_Edition_Ships

Those ships could be only received in tournaments and they are doing it every year since then.

The 2016 tournament recently ended and given out special ships not available to grinders https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/atxiv-prizes-and-draw-results/

 

First you accused us on favoring swedish (when i sailed for sweden) then danes, then pirates, then americans, dutch, then spanish, then french, then pirates, now rubli and other tournament winners.

I don't understand the hints.. do you want us only to favor British? The joke is getting old. Maybe its time for you to accept that we favor everyone in this game, including you. 

 

Or just say it as it is.. you don't like tournament winners and don't want us to give tournament prizes to anyone

(including small battle challenge winners - we chipped in to the pool of that player organized event).

Admin you have beat me with this comment. Was about to say the same thing.

In EVE there is a lot of special edition ships, that - unlike NA - are exists in game in a limited number. Here you have the BP and you can build as many as you wish. In EVE you have a blueprint copy with x amount of runs on it so you can craft the ship lets say 10 times and its gone. They give out a few of these copies to the winner teams and thats it, never again. Those ships are truly limited. Every time one of these gets destroyed the remaining ships value goes trough the roof.  

[admin]

Take a moment here to look at how Magnum feels about tournament rewards being exclusive and unattainable to him by any means.

 

Then read the OP, and realize tournament rewards are the new way to distribute the exciting and rare ships. since the devs are abandoning the quality system in favor of tournaments and events.

 

It should be clear we'll see more of this problem after release, unless the devs move away from tournament rewards and back to play rewards.

 

What you just posted was never said - we said there will be new types of color grading.

 

We never provided lists or anything that might lead you to the conclusion that all ships will be separated into the 3 groups. 

Some people say Ocean is exclusive. Indeed  but it can be crafted and bought from others + you also could get it through the events or a tournament. 

We never said those levels of quality are mutually exclusive

 

So I don't know what veteran player magnum is upset about. 

[Kaos]

So I don't know what veteran player magnum is upset about. 

It's pretty clear I think, he seems angry that he cannot grind out the bp like a drone and someone got them for actual merit in showing some skill and effort, it's kind of unheard of in modern gaming where the trend is to shower even the saddest losers with awards.

[ArmoredKorps]

We bought the BP from the Swedes and started crafting like madmen. In a region with Strong Hull Bonus. With materials we gathered. that must seem very shocking to you...

So what was given was a BP of a ship, and not the ship? WTF, now one entire aliance have acces to a ship that is proven to be OP with all the bonus...

Nothing against you Kloothommel, you guys are using the tool in hand and deserve props to that.

This entire system of Premium (Special, gift, reward) ships are a complete JOKE!

Edited November 5, 2016 by ArmoredKorps

[TommyShelby]

So what was given was a BP of a ship, and not the ship? WTF, now one entire aliance have acces to a ship that is proven to be OP with all the bonus...

 

Erhm lulz? 

 

Come on people. 

You didn't complain when only the British and the US had L'Ocean BP? 

You didn't complain about L'Ocean being OP when only your "alliance" had access to the ship. 

 

But suddenly, when the enemy can make L'Ocean it is unfair and the ship is totally OP. 

[ArmoredKorps]

Erhm lulz? 

 

Come on people. 

You didn't complain when only the British and the US had L'Ocean BP? 

You didn't complain about L'Ocean being OP when only your "alliance" had access to the ship. 

 

But suddenly, when the enemy can make L'Ocean it is unfair and the ship is totally OP. 

There was no regional bonus then!

And if you wached babay stream you know that the Vicks and Santis had no chance against the Oceans with the hull bonus. Again, nothing agains the Danes, they are using and doing the best with the tools they have. But the buffed L'Ocean are way unbalanced!

[Elouda]

Magnum.

Tommy is right.. this is ridiculous.

 

First

Event ships were invented by EVE in 2003

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Special_Edition_Ships

Those ships could be only received in tournaments and they are doing it every year since then.

The 2016 tournament recently ended and given out special ships not available to grinders https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/atxiv-prizes-and-draw-results/

 

Second

Before and even in the beginning of summer 2015 you accused us on favoring swedish (when i sailed for sweden) then month later danes, then pirates, then americans, dutch, then spanish, then french, then pirates, now rubli and other tournament winners.

 

I don't understand the hints.. do you want us only to favor British? The joke is getting old. Maybe its time for you to accept that we favor everyone in this game, including you. 

Or just say it as it is.. you don't like tournament winners and don't want us to give tournament prizes to anyone

(including small battle challenge winners - we chipped in to the pool of that player organized event).

 

PS. and its not like they are not usable by everyone. You can just buy them. or board them from people who have them. They are not Bind on Equip. I know people are selling them and we see transactions in logs.

 

Sorry, I have to point out two major differences here compared to the EVE example, and they are what makes this an issue for me too.

 

1) The reward ships are ships, not blueprints. This means they have value, but are also of limited lifespan (especially in EVE since there are no Durabilities)

2) The reward ships are generally only marginally better versions of existing ones, are are not 'meta defining' in any way. Indeed, often they are rather interesting alternatives rather than being 'top tier', and you can almost always match them via other means.

 

Contrast this to the system you seem to be pursuing;

 

1) The Santa Cecilia is not a problem in my opinion - from what I understand it was given out as a ship (not a blueprint), and its also not a 'top tier' vessel for PBs/RvR

2) The blueprints for Heavy Rattle, Agamemnon and L'Ocean, on the other hand, are problems - there are blueprints, rather than one off ships, so give a persistent advantage out of the reach of anyone who did not receive them, and even worse, they are all very high capability, arguably 'top tier' (ie. bring those over anything else), atleast in the case of the Heavy Rattle (for shallow PBs) and the Agamemnon (for 4th rate PBs). I can't comment on the L'Ocean since I haven't fought them or seen many.

 

If the plan is to give out reward ships and not blueprints? Thats fine. They can be top tier things (though I think it would pay to be a little careful here), or just 'interesting' vessels (like the Santa Cecilia), or even 'unique'/'historical' clones of existing ships (like a Constitution called 'United States' or something, with slightly different stats - think Pirate Frigate here). Because in the end, these are not 'persistent' advantages - at the end of the day, the person using them is putting them on the line to benefit from them.

 

But when it comes to giving out blueprints, which give a persistent advantage, at no risk, that is a problem. Its a big enough problem for me personally, that its very likely to drive me away from the game, and I know I'm probably not the only one. I can accept limited circulation of BPs for the purposes of testing, but if this were a thing at launch? Much bigger deal - as someones who's main enjoyment in the game comes from crafting and trading, and making things for friends to sail in, its a complete slap in the face to be locked out of top end crafting content because there is no other way to get it. If you were to make them obtainable by any other means, be it wrecks, loot drops, whatever, it would be fine. But by basically saying you can only get them as rewards for tournaments, etc? Not my cup of tea, thanks.

 

EDIT: Alternatively, if the reward BPs were limited run (say 10 ships), this would also be an acceptable alternative in my mind.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Elouda

[admin]

So what was given was a BP of a ship, and not the ship? WTF, now one entire aliance have acces to a ship that is proven to be OP with all the bonus...

Nothing against you Kloothommel, you guys are using the tool in hand and deserve props to that.

This entire system of Premium (Special, gift, reward) ships are a complete JOKE!

 

Tournament winners received promised blueprints (we first promised ships but then upgraded it to blueprints due to huge amount of work and effort tournament required from participants).

Tournament winners and everyone who reached quarterfinals also received ships in addition to blueprints. 

Tournament judges and streamers (who had to commit to spend 2 hours for every match and rematch) also received prizes

 

It was widely covered on streams and in National news section.. Where have you been all this time?

It was a true and PVP event the community wanted - PVP only, no randomness and clues. Just sheer skill and willpower.

Tournament shown that it is impossible to do it often because it requires immense efforts from volunteers. As a result we will automate those efforts in code and add them as in game content. Everyone will be able to participate in them and receive potential prizes that increase the further you reach in the tourney.

 

 

But when it comes to giving out blueprints, which give a persistent advantage, at no risk, that is a problem. Its a big enough problem for me personally, that its very likely to drive me away from the game, and I know I'm probably not the only one. I can accept limited circulation of BPs for the purposes of testing, but if this were a thing at launch? Much bigger deal - as someones who's main enjoyment in the game comes from crafting and trading, and making things for friends of sail in, its a complete slap in the face to be locked out of top end crafting content because there is no other way to get it. If you were to make them obtainable by any other means, be it wrecks, loot drops, whatever, it would be fine. But by basically saying you can only get them as rewards for tournaments, etc? Not my cup of tea, thanks.

 

Maybe some players are upset because they had ocean and Agamemnon and now someone else has them. Maybe they are upset with systems. 

We don't want testers to use double standards because previously they were all quiet and fine being only owners of those BPs

 

BPs to tournaments were given only to increase participation in the tournament and generate more excitement. It was very hard to fill the slots initially and people were getting very tired of huge time commitments .But remember one things

The whole blueprint system will change completely. Remember that blueprints exist only up to the release. They are getting wiped on release. We only keep XP and Crafting XP safe. 

 

+ we are testing now.. and we reserve the right to test things we want to test. I wanted to see how dynamics of rare content will work. And what we found that some forms of rare can even change good people into something else (road rage syndrome) and will adjust the distribution methods accordingly.

[Redman29]

There was no regional bonus then!

And if you wached babay stream you know that the Vicks and Santis had no chance against the Oceans with the hull bonus. Again, nothing agains the Danes, they are using and doing the best with the tools they have. But the buffed L'Ocean are way unbalanced!

Tbh it really has nothing to do with the ship. Before the patch and the regional bonus' the Santi and L'Ocean were pretty were balanced with the Vic lagging behind due to it having a lesser broadside weight compared to the other two when running carros but better sailing qualities. 

 

Post patch, with the carros being nerfed, all 1st rates are even more balanced than before the patch as you have to be super close to penetrate with carros. Any 1st rate built with the new regional bonus' will far outclass any 1st rate that was built before the patch and the same goes for all class of ships. 

[ArmoredKorps]

It was widely covered on streams and in National news section.. Where have you been all this time?

It was a true and PVP event the community wanted - PVP only, no randomness and clues. Just sheer skill and willpower.

Tournament shown that it is impossible to do it often because it requires immense efforts from volunteers. As a result we will automate those efforts in code and add them as in game content. Everyone will be able to participate in them and receive potential prizes that increase the further you reach in the tourney.

1- Sorry, where i was is not of anyone business.

2- Because the entire comunity only plays PVP right? Especially in PvP 1

3- So, there will be ships aquirable ONLY by tournaments?

Edited November 5, 2016 by ArmoredKorps

[admin]

Tbh it really has nothing to do with the ship. Before the patch and the regional bonus' the Santi and L'Ocean were pretty were balanced with the Vic lagging behind due to it having a lesser broadside weight compared to the other two when running carros but better sailing qualities. 

 

Post patch, with the carros being nerfed, all 1st rates are even more balanced than before the patch as you have to be super close to penetrate with carros. Any 1st rate built with the new regional bonus' will far outclass any 1st rate that was built before the patch and the same goes for all class of ships. 

this!

 

bonus does not matter indeed (it can be countered with upgrades)

 

before the patch the ship only differed in number of slots

after the patch quality level matters more - its in the patch notes.

[Sir Texas Sir]

you know why, and some people arent going to like this, the reason is because no one in PVP2 could be bothered to arrange something like the tournament. It was an average joe(molon labe) that started the tournament, granted i took over after a while but that was after the devs sponsored some rewards, so if people on PVP2 rather than bitch about there not being a tournament started their own tournament and asked the devs if they could also get some sponsorship, i am sure the devs would happily agree. This bitching about there not being somethign similar i dont like since whose fault is it that there isnt anything similar?

 

 

We even hinted at the Tournament all the time as being PvP One ! To make clear that was a community project from that server alone. I was hoping that by the end of the PvP1 tournament someone on Two would've setup one and even adjusting to any mistakes we've done, Texas.

 

But I digress, Back on topic.

 

____________

 

Ship building changes - naval architects of the future.

 

Question for the Devs regarding the system:

 

- have alterations of existing ships been considered ?

 

Example: I buy a new ship at a good price but say I want to change some characteristics.

 

I just spent a good time and either just having poor luck, but where exactly are the notes of how to set up a Tournament and such?  From what I understand and could be just lack of info the room is locked to only those that the Devs give the passwords to so you have to contact them and set up the Tournament in the first place with there blessing.  You can't just go in there and set it up.  I though I read some where when they set up that part of Missions that they gave out the passwords to mods and folks involve.  YOU WANT TO KNOW SOMETHING?   PVP2 and PvE has ZERO MODS INVOLVED.   So how exactly are we to get in contact with them and get things set up even if we wanted to try to do a tournament.   

 

There was talks about doing some races and such but it all ways died out cause folks either got distracted, didn't know how to get tournaments going or just well lack of interest.  We don't have the community Mod/Dev support like PvP1 does and to be honest a lot of folks on the other servers feel nothing more like the Red Headed Step Child of the project.

 

To be honest I think we should just merg all three servers and be done with it until release.  No special PVE server and no special location server.  One server that every one is on and that we all are testing and involved in the same things as each other.

[Hethwill]

Was community driven, player driven. The communication system we use is the forum. We off topic though, maybe we can initiate a new thread on Events and design a new one ?

[JollyRoger1516]

this!

 

bonus does not matter indeed (it can be countered with upgrades)

 

before the patch the ship only differed in number of slots

after the patch quality level matters more - its in the patch notes.

Well considering youre trying to push us all to basic grey ships it cannot be countered by upgrades as we ar ein your eyes only supposed to have one anyway!

[ArmoredKorps]

Tournament shown that it is impossible to do it often because it requires immense efforts from volunteers. As a result we will automate those efforts in code and add them as in game content. Everyone will be able to participate in them and receive potential prizes that increase the further you reach in the tourney.

How players from PVE server will get the ships that are only available as tournament prizes? They will only get if they participate in the tounaments?

Remember, one of the promisses of this game before going to Steam was that PVP was never going to enforced on players!

[OlavDeng2]

How players from PVE server will get the ships that are only available as tournament prizes? They will only get if they participate in the tounaments?

Remember, one of the promisses of this game before going to Steam was that PVP was never going to enforced on players!

The events which are currently out for rework...

[ArmoredKorps]

The events which are currently out for rework...

OK so there wil be no exclusive Tournament prizes ships right?

[Hethwill]

OK so there wil be no exclusive Tournament prizes ships right?

 

You may setup a new Tournament, organize it, find volunteers, and all of that jazz and present it to the community for a greenlight, right ?

[ArmoredKorps]

You may setup a new Tournament, organize it, find volunteers, and all of that jazz and present it to the community for a greenlight, right ?

I was not asking you, AND that was not the question!

Edited November 5, 2016 by ArmoredKorps

[OlavDeng2]

OK so there wil be no exclusive Tournament prizes ships right?

Ocean, Rattle Heavy and Agamemnon BP were available through those events...

[Hethwill]

 

 

• Special - events, rewards, tournament vessels, or maybe extremely rare and hard to craft (months of effort required)

 

 

 

ArmoredKorps, It is stated on the thread opening topic. I simply pointed out that the Development teams is extremely receptive to community projects.

[Powderhorn]

I was not asking you, AND that was not the question!

 

I could not imagine talking to any of my bosses like that (as I have worked multiple jobs).  Why would you take such a disrespectful tone?  While tone is never conveyed through the internet, we apply tone over top as humans, in order to make more context of things.  Even as I type this, I have an "inner voice" I hear it written in, adding tone.

 

This may be hard for you to hear, but the tone in your post is not a positive one.  In fact, it is decidedly negative.  When you come in with such a confrontational attitude, those who are willing to help become exponentially less willing to help.  If you want answers to questions - honest, well thought out, robust answers, you need to have an appropriate tone.  Otherwise, people will just tune you out.