[PVP1 EU] How power makes you sick

[[DNMF] Admiral Gerding]

HI all who are reading this topic.

 

I want to tell you all, how a day from my point of view is during a day online in the Denmark-Norway nation

 

There are 3 big clans that is ''friends'' and think they are the rulers of the nation (Denmark-Norway). If I or any other that is not following their treaties and so on they wont even show us a little bit of respect and give us a reply that is friendly.

 

They wont tell any besides their clans about port battles they are planing or are going to do.

 

They don't want the support from the rest of the nation as they see us as ''newbies or noobs'' they would rather do it alone because they say their are more organized than any other clans. Maybe because they speak over Team Speak.

 

I'm not saying all their members are bad but most of the leaders/officers are not fine gentlemans as a real commandore has to be.

 

But at least they could be polite to us and answer us with out threatening us (this one goes out for my mate the_scipio) if we do not do what they want us to they will use bad words or threatening us. How professionel of the bigger clans!

 

In my clan we are all equals and polite to all. when I joined I got the best welcome mail ever! it made me feel home. It reflects on me, everytime I see an allied ships from franch I'm welcoming them to our waters.

 

My advice to the big ''bad'' clans is to stop think you are the rules and make everyone in the nation think they are part of something big. if you were friendly to all we could be united and beat Brittain and sweden, but as long as you are doing as you are now, the nation truely will not be able to do great things.

 

If they want to be great leaders be friendly, if not, you lose support from the other sailors in the nation as is already happening. That's why clans are getting values like free and independented.

If there at some point is being a king option where we have to vote for a king I would recommend any from the follow danish clans: DANVE, VIE and RDNN

 

They are not good to unit the people by any means and they wouldn't be able with their attitude.

 

To you who's reading this, may you have a good day, in-game or not

 

 

[Guest]

Right in time for the alliance patch it would seem, now you just need to come up with a good name for your political faction/stance and start gathering votes if you want things to change.

 

Though in regard to beating the Brits and the Swedes, I hope the normalization of relations with the patch will stir the diplomatic pot a bit instead of everyone maintaining the same friends and adversaries ad infinitum.

[Lyric]

Whilst I can appreciate most of what you're saying, speaking from experiencing, and helping lead one of those "big clans" that you mention, it's tough. It really is.

 

Nothing can excuse being unjustifyably rude.  However as the game is still without any diplomatic mechanical foundation, you tend to find each nation has a few extremely dedicated control freaks [like myself at one point] who are the main workhorses behind their national diplomacy.

 

Though my past experience being one of the main military leaders of the Dutch Nation, efficient communication to all parties is just impossible.  We addressed it as an issue every week and we just couldn't solve it. 

 

So whilst I do understand, please also understand that these gentlemen are putting hours in on teamspeak, just so everyone else can play the game as it was intended.

 

Monkeybullet

[Kloothommel]

The bigger clans could just stop defending and taking ports. See how long the nation lasts.

 

The bigger clans keep the nation alive.

 

Now please stop playing a victim and man up. I'm sick and tired of watching VGK string up "dirty laundry"  all the time.

Or was it you that invited SORRY?

 

Your clan want a say in things? Come tell us your wishes in the council. That is all.

TS: na.danmarknorge.org

Edited August 16, 2016 by Kloothommel

[Nikodemus]

HI all who are reading this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When our clan came over from PvP2 there where huge clans in the Brit empire some filling 2 1st rate fleets at a time. No way we could bring the numbers that the major clans where fielding. So what we did was get with the big clans and made our useful. We went out and screened, we scouted we built up a rep of being willing to help the other clans and Nations when and how they needed. Instead of causing trouble for your nation put the past behind you go to the bigger clans and find out what your clan can do to help. Make a name for your clan and your numbers will grow. Before you know it you will be pulling your own Flags and taking your own ports.

[Gooneybird]

Every individual in our nation can be part of the decisionmaking proces by simply joining the councilmeetings announced in our nation TS.  Fortunately the British nation is all about cooperation, from decisions to battles. Individual freedom of mind, tolerance/acceptance and unity in decisions is a nations most powerful weapon. All clans are one British nation.

 

A proud servant to our cause.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Gooneybird

[fox2run]

Its not so much the all the rant and raves from RDNN and Klothommel... there will always be another clan and another control-freak AS LONG AS THE GAME MECHANICS ALLOWS IT!

 

Thats why we need to change the frame of some key-elements. TS is a fine tool for making the right maneuvres in battle or maybe to have a small conversation on your way to a gank.... But leave it there. Make mechanics that so to speak put the clans in their right place. Out of ruling control or dominance of others apart from the battles itself where TS give the edge. Like in all other games.

 

Maybe that could be done by:

 

1) Making PB easy to acces. Open for all - easy to find for the solo-players also.

2) Making a diplomacy make up that prevents TS home-made alliances by the few - again preventing all the frustration when some like to rule over others. Ruling can be done very refined or brute... But a pc-game shouldnt be like this. A pc-game should IMO be a good experience - not the opposite. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by fox2run

[TommyShelby]

-snip-

 

A clan, or clan, cannot in any way force you to do something. 

The clans that step up and form these councils usually are the majority of a nations playerbase. The choices they make are the choices they believe are the right ones for their nation. 

Sometimes these councils make the wrong decision but we all make mistakes.

If you aren't satisfied with the council of your nation or the decisions they make you are most probably (Depending on your attitude etc) welcome to join the council meetings and tell them your opinion on the different matters.

 

If you think the council suck and you have no interest in taking part in that kind of stuff, you have the option to ignore all the decisions made by the council and play the game the way YOU want to play. I'm quite certain that every single nation has atleast 1 rogue clan. (Rogue clan = Clan that doesn't abide by their nations "council".) 

Going rogue will ofcourse have some consequences.

 

As for your suggestions: 

1. First off,

PB's are easy access and open for all. Noone can deny you the option of joining a Port Battle if you want to. It is worth keeping in mind though that PB's are 25v25 and requires alot of coordination and teamwork so your nation will probably not be very fond of you joining the PB without being willing to get on TS, or at the very least communicate through chat during battle.

 

Second and most importantly:

Upcoming patch (Or maybe it's the next one, i don't recall) will make it so a nation has to raise the "hostility level" in outside a port/In a region. (Dont remember if they changed it to Region instead of port).

- When hostility level reaches 100% it activates a countdown of 48 hours. When the countdown reaches 0 a Port Battle start in that area.

- - It will be very easy for everyone to know when and where the PB's take place.

 

2. 

You can't prevent "TS Home-made alliances". It is impossible.. If 2 nations councils want peace between their nation or wants to cooperate in some way, they will do it. 

With the upcoming patch an alliance system is coming. There is alot of info about it here on the forums and i will provide you with a few links as i can't be bothered explaining it all. 

The most important part of the alliance system i will explain though:

- Simply put, a nation and it's populace will vote about which nation their nation shall ally with. 

- Being allied provides certain benefits which you can read more about in the links. 

 

 

But even with the upcoming patch, nations can still make unofficial alliances outside of the game. Or as you call them, home-made alliances. 

Keep in mind though, they are not made by the few. They are made by council which usually count the majority of the nations active playerbase. Note, i write "usually" as exceptions can always happen. But if the "council" is the minority then they do not have any power and the "free folk" or whatever you want to call them can band together and make the decisions.

 

My 2 cents!

Cheers.

 

Edit: Almost forgot the links i was talking about! Here you go: 

Development plans for conquest mechanics (RVR)

"Such is a lord" - Simple politics and alliances part 1

War and Port Battle Rework

Alliances - Final Design

Edited August 17, 2016 by TommyShelby

[The_Scipio]

I'm not saying all their members are bad but most of the leaders/officers are not fine gentlemans as a real commandore has to be.

 

But at least they could be polite to us and answer us with out threatening us (this one goes out for my mate the_scipio) if we do not do what they want us to they will use bad words or threatening us. How professionel of the bigger clans!

 

Sorry m8, I have made no threads towards any of you, in fact I can't even think I have answered you directly in nation chat, since I have had you on my ignore list for god knows how long,. In regard to the other player you are referring to having been threatened by me, no such thing have ever happened. I have different opinions as he and you does, but threats no, I would not go that low, not even towards you and your buddy.

 

However if you are referring to a gimmick we had in DN nation chat yesterday evening as threats, in which players from many different clans were debating whether we should go pirate, and form a clan with some very narrowed purposes, we would off course notify you in a certain way, in OW should it happen - though we only made it to discussing specific names for that pirate clan....if that shall be viewed as a threat, well hmm then we are many players who should have our names tagged in the forums for making threats, LOL.

 

To be a bit more serious, No one want's to control your way of playing this game, neither do we want you to control how we play the game, however you continue to try and dictate your way into the nation, so far without success.

 

Simply speaking (I hope you and your m8 get it this time) We don't care what you do, so please stop interfering in what we do. You have your small community, we have our community, we happen to fly the same flag atm., that's all that we have in common, nothing more.

 

I do feel delighted and special though, now you have dedicated a whole thread in the forums with only my name tagged on to it  

 

 

Let this be my last reply to any of these falsified delusional accusations repeatedly coming from a few butthurt people. Play the game as you want, and let other people play the game how THEY want, and just stop with this nonsense even though it's quite funny reading from time to time

 

Over and out

 

The Scipio

[fox2run]

Ok - nice. Now we can attack who we like and enter all the PBs without you whining...

[Anolytic]

Ok - nice. Now we can attack who we like and enter all the PBs without you whining...

Feel free to attack whoever you like, and "organise" your own port battles.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Anolytic

[Lyric]

 

 

 

Simply speaking (I hope you and your m8 get it this time) We don't care what you do, so please stop interfering in what we do. You have your small community, we have our community, we happen to fly the same flag atm., that's all that we have in common, nothing more.

 

 

 

Looking at this, obviously there is a grudge or two between you, and i'd suggest what was exchanged in game chat would have something to do with that. 

 

They have their community and you have yours like you say. His problem is that your community is much larger, and will probably end up making off the table, teamspeak made alliances or non aggression pacts which he, and some others don't agree to.

 

I'd suggest mending broken bridges because hate only breeds revolt, and we all saw how difficult the swedes were to talk to when their nation was expericing a civil war.

[fox2run]

Looking at this, obviously there is a grudge or two between you, and i'd suggest what was exchanged in game chat would have something to do with that. 

 

They have their community and you have yours like you say. His problem is that your community is much larger, and will probably end up making off the table, teamspeak made alliances or non aggression pacts which he, and some others don't agree to.

 

I'd suggest mending broken bridges because hate only breeds revolt, and we all saw how difficult the swedes were to talk to when their nation was expericing a civil war.

 

Luckily the devs made diplomatic patch so nothing to discuss any more.... Now the nation has one, official foreign policy and those who will make other alliances than that can do so in private without disturbing the great picture...

[Johny Reb]

As one of the player leaders of the US nation I will say a few things as an outside perspective.

 

I don't know anyone in our Congress that leads because they are control freaks and I imagine that is likely the case with your nation. I personally love being involved. Its not about control. Its about being a part of whats happening. Its about having an influence. Its about being on the inside loop. I could care less if I was the head guy or just one more leader on the council. I enjoy that part of the game. It is tough and challenging. It requires massive amounts of work to do it right and it develops skills that I have been able to apply to real life including, confidence, leadership, persuasion, problem solving, emotion control, and positive social interaction. I could never adequately fill the shoes of a dictator and I don't want to. I imagine the Danish leadership feels similarly, at least.

 

Often I have heard the accusation of control freaks. I have seen it used in the context of this OP and I have seen it used as a propaganda tool by disgruntled or disenfranchised clans. I think, due to personality differences, it is only natural for some to assume that others that attain or desire a leadership position are control freaks but I think it is often a characterization based off of misunderstandings about how certain "type" players prioritize their game. Its similar to the ongoing carebear vs. pvp'er debate that will never go away. Neither side can truly understand the motives of the other and so characterize each other in negative terms.

 

Some of the items listed by Admiral Stephan can be addressed and if hes an honest man can understand a perspective other than his own. For one, the leading clans in my nation, as an example, never communicate through nation chat about attacks being planned even when we will show up undermanned to that fight. In our chat as well as yours, Im sure, there are spies who instantly transmit our plans to our enemy. This has happened time and time again. We can't risk putting an "all call" out over nation chat. So we do everything through TS. Most people have access to it but many just choose not to use it. That is not an excuse. Those that are leading a particular offensive don't have the time to pm every small clan or individual player that refuses to use or check in on TS. Therefore, those who don't use it get left out. Those people in my opinion should not get "butt hurt" over this because it is ultimately their choice to not communicate. If you perceive that some members of the Danish counsel are disrespecting you, maybe its because you refuse to be a part of the conversation in a game that is so heavily weighted towards team work.

 

The diplomacy of the nation usually centers around those clans with the international connections. Its not really ruling but leading. The policy of the Danes towards the Brits or the Pirates was made by those on the front line, the ones losing ships and guarding the borders. To gain respect from them then you to must be on the front lines, be willing to lose ships and guard the borders. In a pvp game you earn respect by pvp'ing. Respect is merit based. You can win it by being a good player or by supporting the team. You can loose it by doing neither. All the gains as well as all the loses rests on the shoulders of those clans you call out in your message. Have you ever asked yourself, "how do I get involved," or "how can I help the team?" Are you willing to put aside some of your desires and opinions so that the entire nation can be stronger? Have you tried to get involved with the decision making?

[Twig]

Looking at this, obviously there is a grudge or two between you, and i'd suggest what was exchanged in game chat would have something to do with that. 

 

They have their community and you have yours like you say. His problem is that your community is much larger, and will probably end up making off the table, teamspeak made alliances or non aggression pacts which he, and some others don't agree to.

 

I'd suggest mending broken bridges because hate only breeds revolt, and we all saw how difficult the swedes were to talk to when their nation was expericing a civil war.

 

Huh? When did we expected a civil war? Was it before I came to Sweden?

[fox2run]

As one of the player leaders of the US nation I will say a few things as an outside perspective.

 

I don't know anyone in our Congress that leads because they are control freaks and I imagine that is likely the case with your nation. I personally love being involved. Its not about control. Its about being a part of whats happening. Its about having an influence. Its about being on the inside loop. I could care less if I was the head guy or just one more leader on the council. I enjoy that part of the game. It is tough and challenging. It requires massive amounts of work to do it right and it develops skills that I have been able to apply to real life including, confidence, leadership, persuasion, problem solving, emotion control, and positive social interaction. I could never adequately fill the shoes of a dictator and I don't want to. I imagine the Danish leadership feels similarly, at least.

 

Often I have heard the accusation of control freaks. I have seen it used in the context of this OP and I have seen it used as a propaganda tool by disgruntled or disenfranchised clans. I think, due to personality differences, it is only natural for some to assume that others that attain or desire a leadership position are control freaks but I think it is often a characterization based off of misunderstandings about how certain "type" players prioritize their game. Its similar to the ongoing carebear vs. pvp'er debate that will never go away. Neither side can truly understand the motives of the other and so characterize each other in negative terms.

 

Some of the items listed by Admiral Stephan can be addressed and if hes an honest man can understand a perspective other than his own. For one, the leading clans in my nation, as an example, never communicate through nation chat about attacks being planned even when we will show up undermanned to that fight. In our chat as well as yours, Im sure, there are spies who instantly transmit our plans to our enemy. This has happened time and time again. We can't risk putting an "all call" out over nation chat. So we do everything through TS. Most people have access to it but many just choose not to use it. That is not an excuse. Those that are leading a particular offensive don't have the time to pm every small clan or individual player that refuses to use or check in on TS. Therefore, those who don't use it get left out. Those people in my opinion should not get "butt hurt" over this because it is ultimately their choice to not communicate. If you perceive that some members of the Danish counsel are disrespecting you, maybe its because you refuse to be a part of the conversation in a game that is so heavily weighted towards team work.

 

The diplomacy of the nation usually centers around those clans with the international connections. Its not really ruling but leading. The policy of the Danes towards the Brits or the Pirates was made by those on the front line, the ones losing ships and guarding the borders. To gain respect from them then you to must be on the front lines, be willing to lose ships and guard the borders. In a pvp game you earn respect by pvp'ing. Respect is merit based. You can win it by being a good player or by supporting the team. You can loose it by doing neither. All the gains as well as all the loses rests on the shoulders of those clans you call out in your message. Have you ever asked yourself, "how do I get involved," or "how can I help the team?" Are you willing to put aside some of your desires and opinions so that the entire nation can be stronger? Have you tried to get involved with the decision making?

 

The difference is between those who involve themselves in game and those who involve themsleves in a game and make rules on other players behalf... You guys belongs to the latter and IMHO should be put out of influence by good, in-game mechanics. Thats all.. ;-)

[Chimera]

Sry fox you are alone with that opinion.

I think it is totally fine when the majority of players can decide on something and the minority can't just act against it.

No different than in the real world. Most councils are made off representatives from clans. These people represent a portion of the games population and act in their interest. If they represent enough of the active player base they will come trough with their desires.

If your style of playing hurts the majority of others in their style of playing than its not right for you to be able to do that without suffering the consequences. In your case it is being kicked off if TS (infrastructure that is payed for by the people you are acting against) You can talk to people and try to convince them of your view and build a majority that changes the current politics. Totally within your rights. What you can't do is try to spoil the majority's gaming experience.

Example port battles. If 25 players organize a port battle and go there you shouldn't even be able to join if they don't allow you to (even though I know you can)

Organize your own "event" and start your own port battle. No one stops you from finding 24 like minded and organize your own PVP. If you ruin what others are building for their enjoyment don't act surprised if they don't want you around. Simple as that

[Sven Silberbart]

@Chimera

 

True words

[Knobby]

Never mind explaining it to him mate, he doesn't want to understand that in a sandbox game, home-made anything is in fact what is supposed to happen.

[fox2run]

Sry fox you are alone with that opinion.

I think it is totally fine when the majority of players can decide on something and the minority can't just act against it.

No different than in the real world. Most councils are made off representatives from clans. These people represent a portion of the games population and act in their interest. If they represent enough of the active player base they will come trough with their desires.

If your style of playing hurts the majority of others in their style of playing than its not right for you to be able to do that without suffering the consequences. In your case it is being kicked off if TS (infrastructure that is payed for by the people you are acting against) You can talk to people and try to convince them of your view and build a majority that changes the current politics. Totally within your rights. What you can't do is try to spoil the majority's gaming experience.

Example port battles. If 25 players organize a port battle and go there you shouldn't even be able to join if they don't allow you to (even though I know you can)

Organize your own "event" and start your own port battle. No one stops you from finding 24 like minded and organize your own PVP. If you ruin what others are building for their enjoyment don't act surprised if they don't want you around. Simple as that

 

The frame for me is the in-game mechanics. The frame for you is the councils (in which you probably spend a lot of time chatting and stuff).

 

The big problem with your approach is that you will not accept the players that simply just play the game AS IS. OUT OF THE BOX.

 

You will not leave them alone. You will harass them. You attack individuals with a different approach... (Look above).

 

No - we dont have the time as you have. Yes we like to play the game as WE like. As the DEVS made it. Not as YOU dictate. Live with it and do not harass others. If you do, you should be banned in fact. End of story.

[helgur]

The reason people have been cautious from inviting you to port battles is because your clan leader has a history of bringing 4th rate and 2nd rate ships to 1st rate port battles, taking slots in those PB's from players in clans who have actually paid for and organized said portbaltte (and diminishing our chances of winning in the process). No one is excluded from taking part if they wish from the nation in general, if they just can be teamplayers. I've also invited fox2run into our teamspeak when we do these battles, and I've seen him logged on TS in just one occasion. This also makes things harder for us.

 

Stop painting yourselves as the big victim in all of this, you are just doing yourselves a big disfavor. It's also disingenuous. Now that diplomacy and alliance mechanics are hardcoded into the game, I don't see what you have to complain about? According to fox2run, this is what he wants. This is also what we wanted, since now it will be easier to focus the nation on specific wargoals against the countries we are at war with. So everyone should be happy, right?

[fox2run]

 

 

 

The reason people have been cautious from inviting you to port battles is because your clan leader has a history of bringing 4th rate and 2nd rate ships to 1st rate port battles, taking slots in those PB's from players in clans who have actually paid for and organized said portbaltte (and diminishing our chances of winning in the process). No one is excluded from taking part if they wish from the nation in general, if they just can be teamplayers. I've also invited fox2run into our teamspeak when we do these battles, and I've seen him logged on TS in just one occasion. This also makes things harder for us.

 

Stop painting yourselves as the big victim in all of this, you are just doing yourselves a big disfavor. It's also disingenuous. Now that diplomacy and alliance mechanics are hardcoded into the game, I don't see what you have to complain about? According to fox2run, this is what he wants. This is also what we wanted, since now it will be easier to focus the nation on specific wargoals against the countries we are at war with. So everyone should be happy, right?

 

Ehh. People dont need an invitation for a Port Battle. Maybe you like this to be an in-game mechanic? If so people would accept it, I guess. For me it does a significant difference: I do not like the idea of an alliance with France and Sweden but the mechanics simply overrules my opinion on the subject. I have to live with this fact (until the votes are casted in a better and more intelligent way in our nation - so be it). But regarding PBs EVERYONE has the RIGHT to join.

 

Please DO NOT make your own rules. Its annyoing. Sometimes you invite players on the national chat. (that is if you need more hands) and sometimes you dislike people if they dont come in 1st rates. You cannot play like this. A dedicated player that always help u out shouldnt be rejected if he enters a PB in say a second rate or a small 4th rate. And NO. The battle is not lost if one or 2 ships is of different BR. Tactics and skill matters more IMO. And yet you make a big fuss out of it. Out of players simply using their payed RIGHTS!

 

I like the way you try to organize battles on a tactical level on TS. But please keep it there. That will put you in a better light. Making hidden deals and rules for others is not the way to go.

[Chimera]

This is not a single player game. People play together and the game doesn't sort everything out for you that comes with playing together.

I would actually lobby for a mechanic that makes PB entry invite only (maybe only for offensive ones because these are started organized and willed by a small group of players)

If I pay the ingame go for it and do all the work to organize it I think I should be able to prevent people from spoiling it (maybe even on purpose).

This argument does t work for defense, hence only for offensive battles.

Back to the original point. A sandbox game doesn't regulate everything by game mechanics. Sandbox games are designed to leave from for plAyer organized stuff (like councils and politics)

If you don't like that: you might have chosen the wrong kind of game in the first place.

Btw. It has nothing to do with that if people don't invite you to participate in some parts of the game. It's like in pre school "sandboxes": if you piss of the other kids and they don't like you they don't play with you. Why would they. If I don't enjoy your presence I will make sure you are not around me. Why do you even want to play with the people that don't like to play with you?

[helgur]

Ehh. People dont need an invitation for a Port Battle.

From OP:

They wont tell any besides their clans about port battles they are planing or are going to do.

He was complaining why we don't announce port battles to you. That is what I meant about "invite".

I'm not going to go into a long discussion with you regarding winning chances when we are out of 2-3 1st line ships and the enemy is ahead. That is your opinion. Having done quite a number of port battles, I feel confident about my statement. If you don't like us making those rules, I suggest you organize your own port battles and then you can set your own rules (or no rules if you want). But don't play the victim card, when you screw over a port battle someone else organizes and pay for, and you receive hostility for it. While I don't wish to spend any energy on being annoyed with someone else in a computer game, I also have no problem seeing the cause from which you are getting so much flak in the nation. And as long as you keep up this anti social act of "screw all of you guys, I want to do it MY way" that will never change.

 

I like the way you try to organize battles on a tactical level on TS. But please keep it there. That will put you in a better light. Making hidden deals and rules for others is not the way to go.

Well, you're never on TS either, so that also makes you a double liability. You speak of "Tactics and skill matters more", but it's pretty telling you have no clue what you are talking about if you expect us to win over the enemy with "tactics and skill" but not do basic communication with your teammates.

[fox2run]

Not following your lead is not the same as going solo. Nor is it the same as not coorporate to some point. 

 

As Hethwill stated somewhere else:

 

Game mechanics take care of things for us: red: enemy, green: ally.

 

End of disussion.

 

...or that is: it it hard to loose the former grip of power?