News from the North

[Kleinburger]

Don Quijote is a masterpiece, what do you mean with that sentence?

He means that all Spanish players are Don Quijote.

[CompassRose]

Iceman and myself (don't call me Maverick) were talking about this topic in Teamspeak and we both agree this is the most appropriate movie quote to reference:

 

 

We both like the idea that some people will never back down or accept defeat under any circumstance.  We say good for them.  Means they'll always be up for some good fights.

 

What I've taken away from all this is that Spain either lacks the population or the coordination to defend such a large network of ports spread all over the map.  Getting hit by the Dutch down in South America, the Brits in Central America and the Yucatan, and the Colonies in Cuba and the gulf is frankly too much for anyone to handle.  This was a dogpile on the Dons, pure and simple.

 

I'm fine if the Spaniards NEVER come to the peace table.  I don't need someone in Teamspeak to virtually prostrate himself at my feet and say: 'I surrender!  No mas, no mas!'.  I wouldn't expect anyone to.  And I wouldn't let their behavior dictate national policy of any kind.  I'd let actions dictate that.

 

If Spain attacks the US Coast, I'm sure we'll retaliate, except New Jersey.  If Spain attacks New Jersey, I'd offer to lend them any support I could.  That whole state is an armpit.  You will never find, a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

 

As far as Colonial Shipyards [CSY] goes we're not going to aid in the capture of any Spanish ports going forward.  If any Spanish ports are currently in pirate or British hands and pose a threat to our current borders, we'll capture those ports with the understanding that we won't defend them against a Spanish attack.  Spain is free to reclaim them in the hopes then can begin to rebuild.

 

Like us, hate us, it doesn't bother us.  POTBS helped give us a pretty thick skin.  We've always been seen as the aggressors / villiains for as long as we played the game.  So to Spain I say galvanize your nation however you can and we'll see you on the open ocean very soon.

Edited February 18, 2016 by CompassRose

[Lord Vicious]

['Sharpe]

You must be a very trusting guy then because that's the only Spanish I've seen.

/RP off, if the Spanish want ongoing war that's fine and honorable of them. I just hope there's no more griping about port timers. One of the major motivations behind a U.S. peace offer was not to humiliate or degrade the Spanish, but rather to acknowledge a lousy port timer situation and attempt to remedy it through a fair port exchange. For this, we are interpreted as demanding they cry "no mas". No, if anything we hoped that a peace treaty would signal "no mas" to Cubo-Yucatan political cartography created by an inherently unfair port timer mechanic.

But if the Spanish would prefer war, we will accept.

[Lytse Pier]

Don't worry guys, we are heading towards the North with a small group of players to help you guys out against the Spanish! ... oh, hi Grim and Francis! 

[Johny Reb]

You are arguing with an imaginary person, I have never said I have a problem with you conquering florida or anywhere else. its fine, conquer away. and my nation hasn't been decimated. we are thriving thank you for asking.

 

I just lolled at all the pious and flowerly explanations and propaganda and re-writing of history and how it mirrors real world US stuff. Its amusing to me, although all the accompanying aggro and insults are pretty tedious. but yeah, i have no problem with you doing the conquest. why would I? its just a game. if you have the strength go and conquer! good luck to you, i hope we see an epic war come out of it, peace in this game would be so terribly dull.

 

I don't think the US side seems capable of seeing this from others point of view. its of no surprise to me that the Spanish don't want to surrender even tho it clearly surprises you guys. if you were beaten down and reduced to a handful of ports I doubt you would give in either. its like the common misconception that attacking people will 'teach them a lesson'. no it wont, it will just make them angry and fight back more. punitive action just leads to re-action. you cant make people agree with you by shooting them.

 

Viva the Spanish resistance!

I think you are the most jaded and cynical guy I have seen on these forums so far. Why is it so hard for you to conceive that not everyone is attempting to spin propaganda? This whole post is simply to see if support for a treaty can be raised that would justify a peace. Its not a propaganda thread. Statements I have said, describing my understanding of US motives, and I have probably negotiated with more Spaniards then anyone else in the US nation, has simply been in answer to criticism from players that seem to have no trust in anyone.

 

I have not claimed that any of our motives have been altruistic. The closest thing to a good deed I have done is accept to negotiate a peace with a nation that declared war on us and is loosing. No, not just declared war, but simply wasn't even willing to talk to us. We've been reaching out for a couple days now to some random people and friends but before that became effective we were approached which in my opinion is best. How is that spin or propaganda?

 

As another bit of honesty.... I will correct IniniteAmount, one of my friends and clan mates. We approached Spain's most powerful clan with a proposal that would give us all territory that represents the coast of modern day America. In our war with Spain we pushed west along that coast, not because we were afraid of others taking it but because we wanted it. Once we gained what we had initially asked of Spain, we stopped attacking you for a time. By that time we found almost no resistance. This whole march across the gulf was done without touching Cuba even though it was closer, easier to hold, and did not require us to spread our forces far and wide. I have to believe that you haven't really been paying attention to the time line of events when you make your cynical accusations. Have you asked yourself why it was that when we were taking upward of 3-6 ports every push along the US coast, we only took one port when we finally went to Cuba? We had the money and power to take all of them but we didn't did we? Have you ever asked yourself why? Why be so negative and assume the worst about other players. The move on Cuba and the Yucatan were not altruistic in any way, they were entirely selfish. First to pressure a peace and second to prevent the rumored spread of England. The parts of the gulf we took after the Yucatan was taken for two reasons, both selfish. First so that we wouldn't have enemies between our ports and because the Spanish had said they abandoned them.

 

This was a war and we waged it properly, taking every advantage at our disposal to disperse our enemies. Like our methods or not, trust us or not, the issue is, does the Spanish want to continue this or do they want to rebuild? Look at how many US players are "liking" my original post. Most of them I have no contact with but everyday, numerous players show their willingness to make peace. We don't have to. We want to.

[Johny Reb]

The answer.

 

Hello good evening, we were speaking all the spanish clans that were interested in your proposal, we were speaking long time and we resolve that we are pleased in your proposal but we must say no, if u want to have nice fights with us try to put ports at the time that we all can attack and defend.

I hope the clans in your meeting understand that there are numerous ways to engineer a peace.

1. Ally - We are friends that help each other when able to defend and/or expand each others territory

2. Hostile - We fight each other everyday on the open sea but we have set border agreements to give our nation some stability

3. Hybrid - We are hostile, we have border agreement but assign a group of ports to be fought over, agreeing to port timers for these ports and maybe even days which they can be attacked. Essentially arranged port battles.

4. Hybrid 2 - Hostile/war but with a group of ports for each nation that we agree to never attack.

 

A 'peace' or treaty does not mean we have to stop fighting.

[Francis Tabernac]

Don't worry guys, we are heading towards the North with a small group of players to help you guys out against the Spanish! ... oh, hi Grim and Francis! 

 

This calls for a new thread! Sabre-rattling commencing in 3... 2...

[Grim DeGrim]

SPAIN:  TAKE THE OFFER.

 

 

Otherwise US will need to fight Spain, Pirates, and Britain all at the same time, while sending a fleet to Lower Antilles to Support the Dutch...

[Quineloe]

You expect the Spanish to accept peace when countless U.S. players in this very thread oppose it and threaten with more attacks? If I had to choose between quitting the game for now and grovelling to the players who've taken the ports and now display unparalleled arrogance while demanding peace, I'd fire up a different game in a heartbeat

Btw. The Spanish who decline your offer are sitting at panama. Go ahead and take those ports.

[lobogris]

Hello Johny Reb, thank you for your words and your time but we are not going to negotiate or surrender, it´s easy to understand in our side just look at our history and try to understand us, we fight and we fight alwaies, our first constitution was wroten with the sound of the frenchs cannons in 1812 at Cadiz, Napoleon understood us when it was too late for him and his armee, let the cannons speak and have fun. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by lobogris

[Grimmdawg]

Hello Johny Reb, thank you for your words and your time but we are not going to negotiate or surrender, it´s easy to understand in our side just look at our history and try to understand us, we fight and we fight alwaies, our first constitution was wroten with the sound of the frenchs cannons in 1812 at Cadiz, Napoleon understood us when it was too late for him and his armee, let the cannons speak and have fun. 

Spanish didn't seem to mind negotiating with Americans in 1898...

[Ramon Luna]

Its just a shame you did choose to, as you say, let the game get fucked up just to provoke a change.

 

I never said that, there is nothing we can do, it's a shame you are not able to get it already, after endless disscussion on forums. 

it's curious how the aggrieved faction of nighflipping can be blamed for it. You arguments make no sense. 

[victor]

I'm playing lowbie char in spanish faction and, no, I do not represent any organization but talking just to show the point of view of a seasoned MMORPG player. I'm not against a peace with the US, but let's face the truth: accepting a peace now will leave Spain with some air to breath but no actual possibility to develop a good game for spanish faction. Which new player would be fool enough to join Spain in this situation (which is very likely to get worse in the next days)?

 

The actual problem is not in fact Spain but the excessive power of the US faction (due mainly to the fact that they have a huge community and have a broader timezone from Pacific to Atlantic coast) that jeopardizes the possibility to keep Naval Action a balanced game with many factions actually viable to choose from. I want to be clear: I'm not blaming the US for being so powerful, but I just think that their power (which relies also in factors that do not depend on ingame skills) creates an objective unbalance in the game that could spoil the game on the long term.

 

USA diplomats underestimate one important factor. We are still in alpha so developers are still deciding which mechanics can provide a good game experience. And it's not in the interest of the game that Spain desappears. Today is Spain, ok. We are awful in coordinatig our efforts and so on. But after Spain, who will be the next victim of the US objective superiority. And also if - in order to face the power of US - all the other factions will come one day or the other to ally, will the game be US vs rest of the world instead of a game that tries to replicate the 18th century caribbean?

 

So let me tell you that the failure of the negotiations is better for Spain than for US, since - when US will have conquered all the north west part of the map - it will be clear that the game needs some rework in the mechanics of conquest. And - at that stage - there will be rework of the mechanics and, in order to test the new one, a reset of the ports.

 

I think that, rather than negotiating the peace ingame, US diplomats should start thinking about serious proposals of changes of the game mechaniscs and present them to the devolopers. It's a paradox, but now is the interest of the winning side to be the first in proposing ways to result not "overpowered". Or it may pay a harsh fee tomorrow.

 

On the other side - for the developers - I would like to stress one thing: for God's sake do not commit the error that was committed lately in EVE online. Do never ever (ever!) get to the point in which you may be compelled by the menace of a half server faction that threatens to leave the game if you change something in the game that goes against that faction. This is really a game killer if it happens at the beginning of the developing of the game (and in fact CCP committed such error - at least twice - after several years from the start of the game). Some mechanics may and shall be changed if it is in the interest of the game balance. The more the players the more the customers, the more the money: this makes a game a good and lasting game! When, in the early days, in EVE a faction had the power - using the game mechanics with no exploit - to put a blockade around some stargates that de facto blocked the possibility for players to enjoy the game, CCP simply changed the mechanics in order to lift the blockade. And it was not alpha, but the early age of the full game. And it was a sandbox game! For sure there was a shitstorm of whining from the "blockaders", but EVE is still there and became a better game.

 

Listen my adivce, developers: the problem of US dominance is not a problem that shall be solved ingame by diplomacy or treaties or alliances. At least not in a game that is still in its first steps and still is not already acknowledged on the market. So it's up to you taking a decision fast on the rework of some of the mechanics or I fear that you may have troubles in giving a future to the game in which you have invested so much effort and we all like as much.

 

This is a wonderful game as it is: just try to make it even better with wise decisions.

 

PS: now give only to me a new class 1st rate (named "The unstoppable preacher") that turns like a cutter and sails fast like a privateer! ;-)

Edited February 19, 2016 by victor

[Grim DeGrim]

Don Cosmé Damián Churruca y Elorza would never suffer an affront on his honor like this.

Diplomacy 101: leave a way for the nation to accept with dignity.

What do we have here? A public pity poll. Even if they want to accept, you've made it impossible to do so. But hey, your hands are clean now for a killing blow.

/RP OFF

Long live the memory of Commodore Don Cosmé Damián Churruca y Elorza. The same passion still runs in the blood of his people.

[Really good post]

Good post.

[Prater]

Victor, your forum account is 3 days old.  Little do you know the politics of Naval Action, you don't know the history, and what has been tried and succeeded or failed. 

 

 

The actual problem is not in fact Spain but the excessive power of the US faction (due mainly to the fact that they have a huge community and have a broader timezone from Pacific to Atlantic coast) that jeopardizes the possibility to keep Naval Action a balanced game with many factions actually viable to choose from. I want to be clear: I'm not blaming the US for being so powerful, but I just think that their power (which relies also in factors that do not depend on ingame skills) creates an objective unbalance in the game that could spoil the game on the long term.

 

Today is Spain, ok. We are awful in coordinatig our efforts and so on. But after Spain, who will be the next victim of the US objective superiority. And also if - in order to face the power of US - all the other factions will come one day or the other to ally, will the game be US vs rest of the world instead of a game that tries to replicate the 18th century caribbean?

 

This shows how little you know about Naval Action.  The US is the 3rd most powerful faction.  3rd.  We aren't 1st, we aren't 2nd.  We can't even hold on to the territory we have acquired because we are stretched too thin and on one side of the Florida Stream we are being chipped away at by the Pirates, and the British on the other side, which both of them, are in #1 and #2.  The only thing going for the US at the moment is this:

 

• Coordination of all the clans.  We don't have the division and major disagreements the other nations have between their factions (clans)
• Veteran Players and Veteran Clans
• #3 in server population
• Distraction of the powerful nations around us

With these factors, we have been able to hold our own.

[maturin]

Spanish didn't seem to mind negotiating with Americans in 1898...

Americans didn't want to negotiate at the Alamo either.

 

I can make cheapshots too.

 

 

 

 

This shows how little you know about Naval Action.  The US is the 3rd most powerful faction.  3rd.  We aren't 1st, we aren't 2nd.  We can't even hold on to the territory we have acquired because we are stretched too thin and on one side of the Florida Stream we are being chipped away at by the Pirates, and the British on the other side, which both of them, are in #1 and #2.  The only thing going for the US at the moment is this:

Which is why the U.S. negotiating position is less secure than you think. Sooner or later Spain will get organized, and you will lose your new ports in Mexico, as the pirates or British close in. The stubborn Spanish know this.

 

Your only option for long-term defense of your territorial gluttony in Mexico is to totally extirpate Spain as a nation there, leaving it with Panama and Habana. That will earn you everlasting hatred, including after the port wipe.

 

If the U.S. was smart, it would start cooperating with Spain in anticipation of joint port access. Spain has learned its lesson that the US would be a better ally than Britain because northern Cuba is more important than southern Cuba, and Hispaniola is more important than Florida.

[InfiniteAmount]

Americans didn't want to negotiate at the Alamo either.

 

I can make cheapshots too.

 

I fail to see how a battle between the Republic of Texas and Mexico has any bearing on US/Spanish relations.

[Prater]

I never understand why references to WWI or WWII or in this case the Spanish American War are made in this game.  It is one thing to give examples when it concerns strategy or diplomacy, but using it against national identity, that is off base.  Such as the reference above, or in the majority of cases, certain references to the French, which are completely off base.

[Hethwill]

*sigh*....

 

... in the meanwhile the "2nd class citizens" of the Spanish Empire have been left aside in all the talks because...  they are not spanish...

 

 

Did I guess right ?

 

Get over national ideas. It is simply a faction in a game based in history.

[Francis Tabernac]

I never understand why references to WWI or WWII or in this case the Spanish American War are made in this game.  It is one thing to give examples when it concerns strategy or diplomacy, but using it against national identity, that is off base.  Such as the reference above, or in the majority of cases, certain references to the French, which are completely off base.

 

It's the world we live in, and the experience of the people in it. Today people believe that a disagreement is won by producing the most repeatable soundbite; as evidence I give you essentially all politics in the US and, sadly, more and more of it here in Canada too as we take more cues from you guys. It makes for shallow debate but it's a growing trend that, unfortunately, I don't see changing for the better any time soon. Why stick to salient points when you'll be declared the most clever by throwing out the 'quipiest' jabs. I think that's what Maturin was getting at.

 

As for the diplomatic attempts between the US and Spain, can anybody really blame the Spanish for not wanting any part of it? Strategically peace would be in their best interest, but since the map reset the forums here have been full of almost nothing but snide remarks and smug condescension directed at them by the majority of USN posters. In their place I wouldn't see this as the USN holding out an olive branch either; I'd see it as the USN throwing them a patronizing bone. As it's just a game and they don't actually have to be worried about literally being snuffed out, all they have to fall back on is their pride, as do we all. More than anything else, your players have ruined any chance at a lasting peace. I'm not pointing any fingers or calling anybody in particular out, and I'm not accusing your diplomats of 'allowing your side to be too free with their tongues' or any such thing; everyone has the right to post as they will on here. It just is what it is, as they used to say in anger management. Sadly, this is likely to be answered with "well, if they want to get annihilated then that's their choice for being so bad lololol get on my level" which is representative of most of the back-and-forth between your nations, regardless of the attempts of a few for more civil discourse.

 

That's my take on it, anyway. If the US clans really want peace with the Spanish I think at this point your best bet is to simply ignore them, stop taking ports, stop baiting them on the forums, and just leave them be for a while as you focus your forces elsewhere. If they take a couple of ports back, ignore them and don't bite when they wave them in your faces here (as I'm sure they will).

*sigh*....

 

... in the meanwhile the "2nd class citizens" of the Spanish Empire have been left aside in all the talks because...  they are not spanish...

 

 

As an English-speaking French player all I can do is say "wait, why is he referring to me here... ooh, he said the Spanish". Ba-dum *tish*

[victor]

Victor, your forum account is 3 days old.  Little do you know the politics of Naval Action, you don't know the history, and what has been tried and succeeded or failed. 

 

 

This shows how little you know about Naval Action.  The US is the 3rd most powerful faction.  3rd.  We aren't 1st, we aren't 2nd.  We can't even hold on to the territory we have acquired because we are stretched too thin and on one side of the Florida Stream we are being chipped away at by the Pirates, and the British on the other side, which both of them, are in #1 and #2.  The only thing going for the US at the moment is this:

 

• Coordination of all the clans.  We don't have the division and major disagreements the other nations have between their factions (clans)
• Veteran Players and Veteran Clans
• #3 in server population
• Distraction of the powerful nations around us

With these factors, we have been able to hold our own.

 

I could ask you to show me the acutal data about the player base of the factions on which you ground your assumptions.

 

Or I could stress that you gave no answer on the point of the stretched time zone in the USA.

 

Or I could tell you that - though being such a seasoned naval action veteran (and you will forgive if someone talking about being veteran in an alpha makes me simply laugh!) - you seem to have a very reduced perception about what makes a sandbox MMORPG live or die in the long time.

 

But I will not. It's not my attitude wasting time in discussing a problem with people that simply deny that there is a problem only because the problem does not affect them (because basically this is what you are saying in all the threads on this topic: I win, so nothing shall change).

 

Of course my suggestions were not directed to people like you. So - from now on - please do not bother answering my posts. I will for sure nolonger answer yours.

Edited February 19, 2016 by victor

[Swieb]

Since all our nations have lost almost their strategical control in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico region, and officially every nation in our theater is at war with all the other nations, and all our navies are far away from us because of some unknown reasons, we, the privateers of our nations are the only forces available here to serve our private business.. and of course our nation less or more too. It is interesting to see how this region is developing during the current extreme chaotic period in our common history. Also the fact that there so many privateers in our game, thinking that they are a part of the navy of their country (in real none of us is serving the navy) is amusing for me. Agreements privateer clans make with foreign privateer clans are always informal.. it does not chance the political situation that all nations are in war against each other. There are no official ambassadors active in our game world to serve their nation.. only clan leaders representing their privateer organisation, our themselves. That gentlemen, are the facts in our gameworld, dictated by the game mechanism. For who like to get a better idea of what a privateer was to understand somewhat better what kind of game Naval Action is, see:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privateer

['Sharpe]

I could ask you to show me the acutal data about the player base of the factions on which you ground your assumptions.

Or I could stress that you gave no answer on the point of the stretched time zone in the USA.

Or I could tell you that - though being such a seasoned naval action veteran (and you will forgive if someone talking about being veteran in an alpha makes me simply laugh!) - you seem to have a very reduced perception about what makes a sandbox MMORPG live or die in the long time.

But I will not. It's not my attitude wasting time in discussing a problem with people that simply deny that there is a problem only because the problem does not affect them (because basically this is what you are saying in all the threads on this topic: I win, so nothing shall change).

Of course my suggestions were not directed to people like you. So - from now on - please do not bother answering my posts. I will for sure nolonger answer yours.

So victor, you are incapable of carrying on an argument so you simply bow out? Does this work in your favor in business or school (more likely school given the tenor of your response)?

Here are the facts:

1- As Prater said, U.S. is not the largest or even second largest faction in the game. The entire premise of your first post is faulty.

2- Stretched time zones in the U.S. equally assists the two largest factions in the game - Pirates and GB. Many North American players are a part of these factions. It shows how new you are to the game that you consider the U.S. faction spanning three time zones as problematic, but say nothing about GB who can field hundreds of players spanning nearly 24h from Australian prime time to Vancouver prime time, or Pirates who have equally global players.

3- U.S. players have been THE most vocal to the devs about changes to gameplay. I have spent hours of my life writing gameplay improvement suggestions to the devs on these forums, almost none of which even get acknowledged as read. And yet you think U.S. players aren't trying to help improve the game.

4- You've been in this game how long? Many veterans have been playing over a year. One thing you'll learn about this community is that a response like your response to Prater's post is reprehensible and you'll be ostracized from the community with that poor attitude. So please, honor your tantrum not to post any more in this thread. It's better for you in the long run.

[GrapeShot]

The Spanish terms are 'no to peace and further us Yanks must return ports to them inspite of that declared war' and we're called the intransigent ones?

As for the 'Spanish Problem' in the game, perhaps it is not game mechanics so much as bizarre decisions by the Dons.

Unmentioned in all of this is they've lost the south coast of Cuba to the English as well as the north coast to the U.S. Just where have they defended -- Panama?

I feel sorry for the new Spanish players entering the game in Havana. They have been poorly served by their veterans.

I would like to suggest that, in light of the Dons refusal to face the facts on the ground, as a unilateral gesture we grant low ranked Spanish players safe passage to the south. Hopefully the English will as well.

Edited February 19, 2016 by GrapeShot