Crafting hours a commodity?

[OMG Lord Lucifer]

Some people in my nation's chat were talking about crafting hours becoming a commodity to trade, or purchase from ports.  Maybe each port could even supply a certain amount of labor hours per day.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Lord Lucifer

[OMG Lord Lucifer]

I believe that ports cities should generate a certain amount of labor hours per day, but you can't trade them, only hire a port directly to work on a project.  You would not receive crafting xp, and it would make capturing ports more beneficial to a faction.

[maturin]

The entire purpose of crafting hours is to prevent this.

[Fluffy Fishy]

While I would love to sell off a fat load of ships and rank up its not worth it, id rather see craft levels regenerate slightly faster with a mix of higher rank and craft level but that's it, also the regeneration bonus gained from each rank and craft level should be tiny.

[Lord Roberts]

I do hope they do not go down the same path as ArchAge and make it so you can spend real life money to get Labor Hours.

[JJWolf]

I may get some hate for saying it but get rid of crafting hours and use timers and cost in gold to craft.

[Azzak]

No, the actual labor hours system is good.

[Kaskeria]

I don't know if its projected, but....

What about the possibility of purchasing or renting buildings in ports where you have an outpost which give you reduction in Labour hours costs, or faster hour regeneration.

I.E.

-Shipyard(rent/purchase) this building provides you a proper place to assemble ships thus reducing the hours needed to build them.

-Factory. Same as the shipyard but for materials.

-Workers barracks. Your factory/shipyard workers have improved resting facilities so they regenerate Labour hours faster.

Kask

[Foidewall]

Labor hours ii a visible expression of some workers we employ, so if we want more labor hours we would have to employ more workers, and so would all the other fabricators in that port, so the employees cost goes up because there are competition for his employment. We should probably pay for all the labor hours we got, but on the other hand we could in this way also get more labor hours if we want to pay for it, and get it cheaper if we decide to produce our stuff in other ports than the capital. And if we employ a worker we need to pay for his labor either we use his work hours or not. Some other bottleneck might be implemented, so its easier to waster work hours like only one keel at a time, and if we want to produce more than one ship inside some time period we would need to build another dry-dock or something like that.  

[Aetrion]

Crafting hours are for purchase: By buying goods that other crafters made with their hours.

 

The only problem with crafting hours is people who just want to solo-craft entire fleets of ships.

[Crayon]

Purchase labor hours based on the pool of labor hours available per the port. I don't imagine ports with low production rates a place to buy labor hours since there is little production already. The higher the production rates, the more hours in the pool, but if these hours are worth the full amount exp, the hours will fly off the shelf.

 

Not available in free towns, or triple the cost. 1/5 experience.

[Warrax]

In the strongest terms expressable - NO

Crafting Hours as they currently stand create a truly democratic element in the economy.

Crafting Hours present a unique requirement for:

Teamwork

Community

A common "Rarity" in the market place

A system whereby all players become valuable in terms of the larger clan system

A critical source of revenue for some newer (or even veteran) players

Significant changes to the Crafting Hours system will put crafting out of reach for a vast number of players

As well, changes to Crafting Hours may also form exploitable opportunities for Monopolozation, Pricep-Rigging and Rent-Seeking tendencies.

[Cmdr Thrudd]

The main problem I see with the labour hours system is that it tries to force a supply chain into the game but doesn't take into account the psychology of crafters. It takes multiple accounts to supply a ship builder but most crafters will want to be the one making the ships. No one becomes renowned for making planks, notes and gun carriages. There are a few that seem content to make parts but they're a tiny minority, most folks I've met fall into two camps; I want to make ships or I hate crafting and won't do it.

When the game first launched I had a few folks happy to make parts to sell to me but they all either quit or moved on to making ships themselves. This lead to me buying multiple accounts so I could feed my shipyard and I know many other players that did the same. That's all well and good for the games funding but I think it's a sign of a flaw in the system. Out of the 20 players in my clan they're almost all making ships, some with multiple accounts. A few make notes and no one is interested in making parts, it's just not an interesting role.

 

While I understand what they're trying to do with the labour system I don't think it worked very well in PotBS and don't have an easy solution to the problem but I don't think crafting hours as a commodity will solve it.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Cmdr Thrudd

[beagleplease]

The funny thing is i'd wager that most of the people that are against this are using their buddies labour hours for free.

If they can sell their labor hours that puts a value on them and then their mates start thinking why am i giving these away when i can sell them?

 

In the strongest terms expressable - NO


Crafting Hours as they currently stand create a truly democratic element in the economy.

 

The opposite is true, if you aren't spending money on resources to use your crafting hours, for whatever reason, then you have hours going to waste.

There is no real choice in the matter for you, you might as well donate your hours to a clan mate since there is nothing else for you to do with them.

If hours were tradeable for one thing it would simplify the whole business of using other peoples hours and for another it would actually give them a choice.

Between supporting their clans crafters and supporting their own wallet.

[Musuko42]

I wouldn't like to see the ports producing labour hours that can be bought. But, having the ability for players to put their crafting hours up for sale, and for others to buy them, could be interesting.

[KrakkenSmacken]

Crafting hours are for purchase: By buying goods that other crafters made with their hours.

 

The only problem with crafting hours is people who just want to solo-craft entire fleets of ships.

 

The right way to go is to assist in facilitating this behavior in the UI, with ease of transition between crafting and item purchase.

 

If beside where your items show as short and turns red while crafting, was a price and button to just buy the materials from the port, players trying to capitalize on spending their hours on the small parts of a ship would have a more convenient outlet.

 

Right now the best trade seems to be in the lowest item on the required list, (logs, hemp, gold, etc) because that is what people habitually head to and then build up.  But if there was easy access to purchase already assembled parts at every level (Planks, Iron fittings, etc), then effectively people would be selling their hours.

Edited March 2, 2016 by KrakkenSmacken

[Aetrion]

I think the game then again runs into a problem of trying to copy Eve without having all the features of Eve, because one of the biggest things in Eve that facilitates supply networks is being able to source things without having to actually fly to every station first. That way you can create a transport order or make one round trip with a hauler to get low prices on what you need rather than just having to guess.

 

But yea, overall people should be trading with each other to get the hours toward large projects.

[Tindahbawx]

Whoops, I posted a seperate thread for more or less the same thing, here the OP post i done for that thread:

 

---

Give me your thoughts and opinions on this, Labor Hours as a tradeble, marketable, resource. 

 

Currently, as I'm sure you're aware we already see a lot of people in chat saying "WTB: XXX Labor Hours for XXk", and I'm pretty sure most people in a clan are well aware of the need to devote some of your labor hours to your crafters building the 3rd Rate+ ships, given how labor intensive large carriages, etc are.

 

Essentially labor hours are already treated as a resource by everyone in the game anyway, and certainly one of the more useful ones. given that a "Labor hour" is only really representing 1 hours work by some fellas in a workshop or down a mine, or felling some trees, to me it doesn't really make any sense that they are tired to your character in their current form. Its not like your character has this workforce that only obeys his contracts is it? Realistically, what it represents is you hiring out some guys to do some set work for you.

 

So, why don't we just make labor hours a resource you can trade directly on the market itself? To start with you could have everyone keep their current labor hour regeneration, but have an option to turn what you have into Labor hour units that you can just place directly on the market for others to buy, trade and use. Alternatively, if one of your high level crafters needs to use some of your hours, you could just hand them off to him directly, and he can go and get on with whatever he needs to be doing.

 

Further down the line of course you could add new buildings into the game, "Workshops" who's only function is to generate labor hours, that you can then sell on (hire out) to other players.

 

Thoughts and opinions?

---

[KrakkenSmacken]

Whoops, I posted a seperate thread for more or less the same thing, here the OP post i done for that thread:

 

---

Give me your thoughts and opinions on this, Labor Hours as a tradeble, marketable, resource. 

 

Currently, as I'm sure you're aware we already see a lot of people in chat saying "WTB: XXX Labor Hours for XXk", and I'm pretty sure most people in a clan are well aware of the need to devote some of your labor hours to your crafters building the 3rd Rate+ ships, given how labor intensive large carriages, etc are.

 

Essentially labor hours are already treated as a resource by everyone in the game anyway, and certainly one of the more useful ones. given that a "Labor hour" is only really representing 1 hours work by some fellas in a workshop or down a mine, or felling some trees, to me it doesn't really make any sense that they are tired to your character in their current form. Its not like your character has this workforce that only obeys his contracts is it? Realistically, what it represents is you hiring out some guys to do some set work for you.

 

So, why don't we just make labor hours a resource you can trade directly on the market itself? To start with you could have everyone keep their current labor hour regeneration, but have an option to turn what you have into Labor hour units that you can just place directly on the market for others to buy, trade and use. Alternatively, if one of your high level crafters needs to use some of your hours, you could just hand them off to him directly, and he can go and get on with whatever he needs to be doing.

 

Further down the line of course you could add new buildings into the game, "Workshops" who's only function is to generate labor hours, that you can then sell on (hire out) to other players.

 

Thoughts and opinions?

---

 

There should never be a way to generate extra labor hours without corresponding activity, or else the entire mechanic loses its real purpose and may as well be removed entirely and replaced with gold costs.

 

The limit is to prevent one person from becoming a funnel, able to produce an unlimited quantity of ships or whatever needs to be controlled.  Open up the ability to exchange gold for labor, and you upset that goal.  

[ingerad]

While I wouldn't mind some changes to the whole labor hour system, I don't think sticking them up for sale in a port is the best method.  At that point they just become yet another commodity for sale and that is really just boring.  It also, as others have pointed out, could result in certain players just leaping ahead in the craft levels.  Part of me also doesn't like the idea that you remove some degree of player interaction with such a change as well.

 

The idea to somehow tie them to buildings is interesting, and makes more sense.  It would make a crafting player very different from a production player.  If you had a building for each crafting type (Woodworking, Casting, etc.) each with it's own crafting hour pool that could be interesting.  It would also likely stimulate the market more, as extra hours from one building could be used to place items up for sale.

 

Anyway, as others have pointed out, you can buy hours already.  Either through specific interactions, "I'll buy X hours for Y gold", or through the purchase of parts in a port.  Heck, of late I've made it a point to stick up buy contracts in ports for certain mats to try and coax folks into crafting them.

 

I do agree, part of the problem with crafting currently is there are either people that want to do it (Myself included) and those that just aren't interested.  But a better solution is needed than a simple commodity buy button.

 

I think to stoke interest there needs to be a better defined sense of progression with crafting.  It should really be a valid way to "play" the game rather than a simple thing you spend a bit of time doing occasionally once or a few times a day.  Something as simple as some sort of "Crafting Mission" would be at least one simple way to ignite interest, it could just be a "Make X of Y for some gold".  Just make sure that the items end up in the port for sale or something.  Even if they aren't, more people would be interested just by virtue of using the system rather than forgetting it exists.  

 

Maybe some sort of daily mission or something.  Another problem that I think turns people off of crafting is that to a new crafter the list of materials for making a ship or w/e is massive and comes off as rather intimidating.  Getting folks used to what goes into a ship alone would go a long way.  

 

Another alternative to improve the learning curve would be a better UI for crafting.  For instance, to a new player just making a simple Lynx, they end up having to flip through tons of different pages to get an idea of what they need to make and what resources are required.  At the least some sort of breakdown a la http://www.navalactioncraft.com/would be very useful.  Even better would be button shortcuts within the bigger recipe that will craft that specific component, so clicking on the "Iron Fittings" button would make them without needing to flip through lists.  Ease of use would be nice for newbies.

 

 

As a minor aside, I would really like a deeper crafting system anyway.  Why not stick the craft XP into separate levels for each building, which you could level up to make "better" versions of the materials.  Using better crafted materials could make better overall ships.  I think more than anything in order to make crafting more prevalent, we need to make it more interesting.

 

There are plenty of good ideas out there, this idea just sounds like someone wants to spend mega gold to make a fleet at will.

[Fastidius]

Labor hours are good.   Having a town be able to offer trading hours to the clan of the lord protector would be a way to incentivise port ownership.   crafting hours are a commodity as long as there is only 1 character per account.....problemis when you can self create hours cheaply.

[Slamz]

My guild has basically started doing this already -- using crafting hours as a commodity. We have a big spreadsheet designed to make it easier to do this.

 

For example, if I want an Exceptional Trincomalee, how many mid-grade notes is that worth? In other words, how many labor hours (plus materials) worth of mid-grade notes would be equivalent to an entire ship? I make not just notes for my ship, but additional notes representing labor hours the shipmaker can save on other things.

 

Someone else could buy a Trincomalee in exchange for large carriages -- again basically trading his labor hours for the ship.

 

 

So I would be in favor of players buying and selling labor hours on the market. It would save a whole lot of spreadsheet calculations.

 

I would not be in favor of buying or selling them to or from NPC sources.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Slamz

[Kiefer Cain]

Crafting hours are not subject to inflation in the same way that we all see with the gold currency explosion.  Crafting hours are a fixed supply based on the number of players playing and the crafting level they are at.  There are 'x' number of players, which means there is x amount hours available.  Labor hours would be subject to demand by buyers,too.  Buyers would compete to buy those hours, and one would assume the price paid would be incorporated into the final sale price of whatever item is being produced. 

 

It would lower the bar (a good thing) to economic participation, too.  For those players that are not interested in the least in producing or processing anything, this is their way to contribute to the economy.  These crafting hours already exist in this game, this concept wouldn't be creating hours out of thin air, it would only be enabling a means to tap into an existing stockpile of it.  Rather than just be consumers using limitless gold, the non-crafters become suppliers of something (even if at the bottom rung of the economy). 

 

Should sold hours be limited to only zero xp hour usage? 

 

I think the hours should be gated by the seller's current crafting xp.

 

Maybe a former master crafter of lvl 50 decides to take a break from the shipbuilding or high level product grind.  Shouldn't she/he be able to sell their lvl 50 skilled hours to other lvl 50 crafters via the market?  In real life a skilled professional will close their business and work for another business.  Why not have this reflect itself in the game, too.  For whatever reason, players leave crafting (or never start in the first place).  So what?!  That doesn't mean they can't still provide their hours they earned (by buying the game, and playing the game) to the market.  All this concept does is further the possibility of turning this game into a functioning player-run economy and allow for players to naturally fill all the cracks that appear up and down the economic ladder.  It is perfectly viable in any economy to allow each player to do with their crafting hours as they see fit. 

 

Another problem and solution: 

Players conducting account alt. trades at zero cost.  Solution would be to force all craft hour sales to be done via the market function of each port.  Subjecting every crafting hour to the prevailing supply and demand pressures of the current economic conditions. 

 

Please do not design AI-based or npc crafting hours! 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Kiefer Cain

[The Spud]

The easiest way, and maybe too easy, would be for a crafter to put up a contract of what he wants done. Like X amount of Medium Carriages, he buys the materials and puts them in the contract.

The contract will just say contract put up by "Captain X" for "X amount of labour hours" reward is "X coin".

Whoever has enough labour hours free, can just fullfill the contract by just clicking on it (no effective crafting needed) and receive the money, when completed the one who placed the contract can claim it.

 

Benefit of this system:

- Nobody can buy all the crafting hours (compared to players selling their labour hours to the shop, and crafters buying them from the shops like resources).

- Higher priced crafting contracts will be done faster.

- Low ranked players will make easy money this way, and have more money to spend on buying ships (the economic circle goes round and round).

 

This is a bit of an implemented gamefeature from what is now being done via chat. A guy has labour hours free, you trade with him, you get the goods, you craft, he pays you some money for it. Done deal. The above would be about the same, just way easier, and without the chance of a guy just keeping your goods.

[Slamz]

The easiest way, and maybe too easy, would be for a crafter to put up a contract of what he wants done. Like X amount of Medium Carriages, he buys the materials and puts them in the contract.

 

We could also just allow more buy orders.

 

5 buy orders really limits what ship builders can list as their needs.