It's a game!

[Puchu]

Dear everyone,

 

There has been a lot or uproar because of various things. 

 

In the end, to me, this is a game. And as such, there are some compromises that have to be made. 

 

To me, these are some of the compromises:

 

1. Stuff that is annoying needs to go.

2. Player skill needs to matter. 

3. Good gameplay needs to be more important than realism. 

4. There has to be some kind of balance.

5. Newbies matter!

 

 

Let's take the starting ship as an example.

 

The Lynx is very mobile, and very fast, and has an awesome speed at almost any point of sail.

But shooting in it is a real pain because it heels so much with every wave.

And if, in addition to that, it's really hard to see your shots through the smoke,

Doing your first battles in open world is realy annoying. 

 

So I would suggest, according to the upper compromises:

 

Make the lynx more stable to reduce frustration, and reduce the cannon smoke (at least to the small calibers). 

 

 

I know the debate "realism" vs "gameplay" will never be fully solvable but please dont sacrifice the fun of the game to the immersion. i'm actually happy that my pc doesnt spit salt water in my eye with everywave.

 

 

 

[Justme]

There is going to be a lot of friction I think between the realism vs gameplay crowds. Already has been. Don't envy the devs trying to maintain that delicate balance.

[MikedaBike]

Instead of splitting the community, can the game not make working together, more rewarding for both sides? New players spawning areas must be patrolled by higher lev players, in fact make it a mission factor that pays well, maybe even all players have the option to keep one ship at home base and be recalled to do there 1 or 2 hours (highly paid) a week patrol duty, not sure how the zoom home to do this would work as you cant really sail back all the time, maybe an insta relocate to your base ship but that has it's probs too. Anyway point being make it profitable for the different types of players to work together. Trade runs, again mission to join a fleet for trading to...... xx somewhere PVE can sign up to get protected fleets, again make it worth the PVP players time and folk will work together. In an engagement situation the traders have the option to wait outside battle area cloaked and await their escort or run... instead of splitting make each side need the other in some way to bring us all together,,, you know like a community lol.

[maturin]

Let's not please ruin Lynx, one of the most iconic and innovative sailing vessel types in history.

 

I'd rather see a larger variety of starter vessels, such a more prosaic schooner, cutter, Bermuda sloop or lugger.

 

 

As for the smoke, which I will fight tooth and nail to retain in all its glory, this is non-issue once the game gets the fighting top and masthead views that it desperately needs. Imho it is long overdue that our camera is restricted to hovering ten feet above the deck. I want to command from the quarterdeck or from the rigging, both of which are superior in terms of visibility and immersion.

[Balsafer]

Smoke needs to remain as is, Heel reduction for the lynx i wouldnt mind or more ships to choose from.

[kang]

I totally agree that there's a steep learning curve even just going from Sea Trials to Open World.  There may be things that could be toned down or somehow made more newbie friendly.  But, i think most of the newbie curve could be handled with a minimal tutorial and more importantly a dumb bot arena where they can go in and learn the basics of sailing and shooting like we did in Sea Trials.

 

I know I would have loved to have had something dumb to shoot at in the very beginning to figure out all the aiming changes.  Have to think that thought has occurred to game labs, as well, they probably just haven't had a chance to build something like that into OW.

[DazednConfused]

I like where the OP is going with this.

 

In regards to the first vessel to own i think a change in thought process needs to happen. At the moment progression is by going to larger ships until - inevitably - all people are in larger ships and there is nobody in the smaller ones but people new to the game.

 

I think some of the fore/ aft vessels are difficult ships to master and should NOT be the beginning vessels in game. lynx and privateer should be further down the progression track and be relatively expensive to own (they are in the end the hot rods of the era we are creating).

 

I would suggest we come up with other newbie vessels like the brig, brigantine, flute, snow etc in various forms.

 

One thing we do need to change is experienced players always in the bigger vessels, but for now with only a linear rank structure and only combat so far implemented we will have to wait and see.

 

my 2 c

[AKPyrate]

Let's not please ruin Lynx, one of the most iconic and innovative sailing vessel types in history.

 

I'd rather see a larger variety of starter vessels, such a more prosaic schooner, cutter, Bermuda sloop or lugger.

 

 

As for the smoke, which I will fight tooth and nail to retain in all its glory, this is non-issue once the game gets the fighting top and masthead views that it desperately needs. Imho it is long overdue that our camera is restricted to hovering ten feet above the deck. I want to command from the quarterdeck or from the rigging, both of which are superior in terms of visibility and immersion.

 

I wholeheartedly agree.  I think Lynx is much too fast and unstable for a newcomer to learn on.  It will only cause frustration and possible discontent with the game to start out there.  Once trading is implemented, it would be great to start off with an unarmed trading boat (that could be lightly armed eventually), and then choose which way to go from there.  And to avoid the linear advancement ladder in the future, then ships could be priced not purely due to size, but also year of building, potential power, actual effectiveness in the game, etc.  As for gameplay vs. realism, I'd rather not see these two differ much.  I for one would rather have the ability to make the gameplay work for a realistic model.

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

I think the Lynx is a great ship to learn NA in.Its fast because of its Sailing rig and the Hull,with a narrow Beam she WILL heel over,so either reduce sail or move to where the wind has less effect making you heel over.The smoke is fine,Black powder will ALWAYS make a hell of a lot of Smoke.Larger square rigged vessels are harder to Sail given the nature of their Rigging.

[Theuerdank]

Gameplay is very important, also its very different to simulate a navy cadett-school from '1750' or a well thought also complex but still believable 'game'world about 18ct. So realism like implementing historical correct underwear for the seamen is for me not as important as something really believable realised or converted. One aspect seems very clear, the ship-models will look absolutely recognisable as the historical originals, thats great.

Anyway i dont want a learning programm for '300' year old naval belongings, clear. Would be also boring to me. So again, good gameplay/ruleset is what any game needs.

 

A problem for all games with different factions is everytime the number of players in one faction. Many smaller servers so nearly any faction will have a population to act or perhaps one big server but then clearly weak nations vs. strong nations. Strong (in population) will be England probably weaker Portugal or Denmark.

But must be open world (also with PvP possibility) a constant war-game? Or for wealth clever trading also by fewer pop-numbers of a nation could be more important and finally more successfull? Naval 'Action' must not mean 'Sink all possible victims'.

[thomas aagaard]

Think it should be changed from a linear progression to a tree, so the different types of ships have differet progressions...
(like we know it from many other games)

 

And It hink it should be done now, even if some "lines" will be rather short.

[Laik]

I believe a lot of problems with the starting ships could be remedied very easily by introducing really short and basic tips for new players when they join the game. The most important thing is to inform the new players about the best points of sail for a starting ship. Many new players don't realize, that in a fore and aft vessel you can run from any square rigger by going beam reach or close haul. Putting a little box with this and similar tips for a new player to see at the start of the game could make a big difference.

 

Right now the only thing there is is combat, and you always want to have more and more guns which puts Lynx at a disadvantage. As I mentioned before, you can run away in those ships in almost every situation. If you put new people in brigs, then they are really toast, because they can't even run from anyone.

 

Historically Lynx was designed as a blockade runner and to raid lightly armed enemy merchant marine. We have none of those properly implemented yet, so it can't shine in it's designated role. Until we get that, I think it should stay as a starting ship.

[SeamanStaines]

I agree with much of what Puchu and others say. All the testers have countless hours of experience in Sea Trials and are hugely experienced. I am not an especially gifted player, however with over 750 battles in Sea trials I am likely to be far more competent than all but the most intuitively gifted newbie, but I will confess that I still am finding OW challenging and regularly lose ships. The AI fights better, the ship handling is more realistic, gunnery is less accurate and smoke can make it harder and then there are the predatory players (and teams of players) that are not going to show any mercy to a new player and may even single them out. Plus because there are consequences in losing ships experimentation is not so easy. In short, its going to be tough for them.

 

I don't believe it will be easy to have different levels of difficulty in the same game, and, I don't think the game should be made easier to accommodate new players. I would suggest that something akin to Sea Trials be retained (albeit with the new sailing and damage models). New players would have to get damage points and experience progressing through various vessels up to say Cerberus before being given a commission and entering OW. Experienced players could drop in to this module and give help and advice. This would seam to me to be the easiest way to bring players up to speed.

[Martin de Crow]

+1 for keeping Sea trials for newbies before getting a commision for OW in order to get experience.

[DeRuyter]

Let's not please ruin Lynx, one of the most iconic and innovative sailing vessel types in history.

 

I'd rather see a larger variety of starter vessels, such a more prosaic schooner, cutter, Bermuda sloop or lugger.

 

 

As for the smoke, which I will fight tooth and nail to retain in all its glory, this is non-issue once the game gets the fighting top and masthead views that it desperately needs. Imho it is long overdue that our camera is restricted to hovering ten feet above the deck. I want to command from the quarterdeck or from the rigging, both of which are superior in terms of visibility and immersion.

+1

Lynx represents a specific development of the schooner rig from late in our time frame. Plenty of traditional or older schooner designs to include in game as starter vessels, like this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sultana_(1768)

http://sultanaeducation.org/about-sultana/schooner-sultana/

Notice the differences in the hull and rig.

FYI - The replica Lynx will be participating in the tall ship events on the US East Coast for L'Hermione's visit.

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

Dont forget, you can add modules etc to the Lynx,i should think that a "Fully Loaded" Lynx isnt as puny a vessel as is imagined,granted the 4 pdrs are a restriction but the advantages could outstrip the disadvantage.

[Puchu]

As expected, this topic also has the same fight going on as allways. What i really try to say is:

 

We need to accept that it is a game, and therefore realism will be sacrificed for gameplay and fun. That's the way of things. The question is, to what degree will realism be sacrificed. To me, gameplay is more important than realism, but i know that I'm in the minority on these forums. 

 

 

 

 

The lynx might be glorious and all, i really appreciate that. And i also appreciate the detail put into the ships. But why do we have to give a newbie a ship in which it is hard to hit a target even when standing still because it heels so much with the angles alone? 

 

And i can understand why you like the smoke, dont get me wrong, im just saying: We need a way to see where the shots are going. How are you going to get better at the game if you cant see what you are hitting? That goes for newbies as well as for highly experienced players who want to aim for exact hitboxes. 

By the way, i have an actual 12pd cannon at home. Smoke is highly dependent on the type of powder you use. And in reenactment there are a lot of ways to fill your cannon with stuff that creates more smoke and more fire for effects.

 

With this being a game, there are also other things that change the dynamic of the game: Fighting. Since you don't actually die, and since you dont actually loose your friends and able sailors in battles, people will be willing to fight more than in "realitiy". That means that we will have to accept that fighting in general will happen more often than it would have in the age of sail. In fact, Fighting will happen all the time. Ganking will happen all the time. And fights will be unfair at all times. Because that's the nature of the game. 

[GrapeShot]

To me, gameplay is more important than realism, but i know that I'm in the minority on these forums

I know that I can't wait for the first time I get becalmed in the Horse Latitudes. Oh the fun I'll have, dancing a jig in front of my computer and singing sailor shanties as I while away the days waiting for a fresh breeze to get me moving again.

OK, bad jokes aside, it does seem like it would be useful to have a cheap and forgiving little boat available for new players to experiment with. A simple sloop suited for a bit of coastal trading and other shenanigans.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

As expected, this topic also has the same fight going on as allways. What i really try to say is:

 

We need to accept that it is a game, and therefore realism will be sacrificed for gameplay and fun. That's the way of things. The question is, to what degree will realism be sacrificed. To me, gameplay is more important than realism, but i know that I'm in the minority on these forums. 

 

The lynx might be glorious and all, i really appreciate that. And i also appreciate the detail put into the ships. But why do we have to give a newbie a ship in which it is hard to hit a target even when standing still because it heels so much with the angles alone? 

 

And i can understand why you like the smoke, dont get me wrong, im just saying: We need a way to see where the shots are going. How are you going to get better at the game if you cant see what you are hitting? That goes for newbies as well as for highly experienced players who want to aim for exact hitboxes. 

By the way, i have an actual 12pd cannon at home. Smoke is highly dependent on the type of powder you use. And in reenactment there are a lot of ways to fill your cannon with stuff that creates more smoke and more fire for effects.

 

The basic fact is that any gunpowder you buy these days is an order of magnitude LESS smokey than the comparative garbage they used at the time.  Add dampness/moisture, impurities, etc. that were rife in powder at the time and you had so much smoke that ships at Trafalgar were firing broadsides on their approach to use the resulting smoke to mask the entire ship from enemy fire.  Despite increased smoke, I haven't had a ton of trouble placing my shots in Open World.  Past that, Maturin has the perfect solution - which is to have the spyglass deliver a PoV from the fighting tops, which would be over top of your own smoke, but still allow the enemy's cannon smoke to correctly and properly obscure the ship.  I've mentioned before that gameplay must take precedence over perfect reality, but the more realism you can add, the better the game will be overall.  In this situation, having realistic smoke adds a larger degree of complexity to the game, in ensuring wind directions and making sure we're not using scoped rifles to put rounds into the perfect spot on an enemy.  Smoke is good, the current levels are great.

 

As to Lynx.  She should be beefed up a little, more expensive, and not the first ship a Captain commands.  A ship more like the cutter, only smaller would serve the purpose well.  It could heel less (as well as be less fast), and be less maneuverable to "slow" things down for the brand new Captain.  Lynx should be what she was, a very expensive Ferrari.  Lynx was the state of the art at the time and that should be reflected in the game.  Don't nerf Lynx because she was "hard", instead substitute her with a less capable ship that will serve the new player better.

[mouse of war]

When I was a noob, I was having real problems with the Lynx when I joined OW but after about 6 battles I got used to it and could contribute to battles. And when I was outclassed - I ran.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I really like the current balance of realism / fun / challenge and I wouldn't change a thing.

 

I learnt to take into account the way the Lynx heels and became a little less of a noob.

[James Rackham]

The smoke is perfect, you have got used to how it was in the sea trials, the amount of smoke in the trials and in open world is nothing compared to how a engagement would actually be, as others have said the quality and components of powder was not as good as it is now and gave off huge quantities of smoke waaaay more than we have in the game now, it was chaotic, noisy and difficult to get clear views on targets during battles, that having been said it is as you said a game and should as such not get to ultra realistic levels or it would take 5 years for us to get a new ship for example.

 

There has to be a balance of skill required to sail these vessels and advance within the game with the understanding that the developers need to attract new players and people to the game so that they can have a viable product so those purist ultra realists need to relax their expectations and the people who want a point and kill game need to look elsewhere as you actually need to think ahead, plan and behave tactically.

 

Having said all this I am glad it isn't me having to strike that balance as its going to be an interesting tightrope to walk however I think they are doing very well so far and for an Alpha it is remarkably good code and game play.

[kang]

The nice thing about a fore and aft starter ship is that they can sail in any direction reasonably well.  Also, there's not much you need to do regarding manual sailing with them in battle so that's one less thing a newb would have to worry about.  They are tricky to shoot from though and that can be pretty frustrating at first.

 

One idea would be to add a generic sloop or something as the starter vessel that wouldn't have all the historical baggage and could be tuned to be a little easier to shoot from and whatever else needs to happen to ease a new player into the game mechanics.

[BustyLove]

I think the cutter or something similar is a better starting ship than the lynx. The lynx is a difficult ship to use effectively. 

[yamms]

My sense is that new player need to learn manual sails ASAP. you need at least a two mast square rigged ship for that. I would be in favor of the starting ship being a small square rigger.

[Puchu]

This thread is not called: "is the lynx a good starting ship for new players?" or "What do you think about the OW-Smoke?"  Those were two examples, to clarify what i mean by "to me, gameplay is more important than realism" 

 

I just wish there were more people recognizing, that this is a game which is supposed to be fun for many people. On the forums it's easy to state dates and figures, youtube videos and other evidence that something in the game is, or is not as it actually was back in the age of sail. But in the end i guess what we really want is a game that is actually good and enjoyable. 

 

Ok, there are different definitions to "good" and "fun" and "enjoyment" we all know that. And you cannot please everyone with the decisions you make in game design. It is a game, it has its rules. Those rules will allways be different from reality. I just whish the game would take out all the "annoying" parts and the "not enjoyable" parts. The game needs to decide what players they want. If they want the pvp-ers, they will get frustrated if there is an easy "run away" option (like alt-f4 and so on) if they want the ppl that usually play truck simulator, they need to make pvp-flag optional or even a pve server. All their decisions will take away players on one side and please players on the other side. 

 

For me: combat mechanics is most important. to me the game could look like 3 colour tetris and i would still like it. I want to be able to aim properly and i want to be able to be better than others by playing better. If the gun dispersion is so random, that you cant aim anyways, that frustrates me. If i dont know where my shots are going, so i dont know what im hitting and how effective it was, i get frustrated. It doesnt matter to me how historically accurate both those things are.