Patch 30: Trading feedback

[Macjimm]

48 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

I'm liking the new trade econ. It feels more realistic than just being able to make large profits from any capital port. The only thing I wish is that players had influence over the development of these trading hubs...making their population and town size and econ demand change based on our deliveries. ATM, I find trader capping is the easiest meta...sailing the goods to a high value port is just a plus. I just wish this merchant capping had some kind of larger influence on the nation of the ship.

Exactly.

Perhaps someone, anyone can advise if providing goods, resources, repairs, ships etc has any influence on the port or the nation.

Does intercepting trade ships have any effect the availability of any items in a port?

Before the recent updates, I have watched NPC ships arriving at ports and checked the quantity and price of all items in the shop both; before the ship arrived, and after it left, and have never seen it make a difference.

 

[van der Clam]

3 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Exactly.

Perhaps someone, anyone can advise if providing goods, resources, repairs, ships etc has any influence on the port or the nation.

Does intercepting trade ships have any effect the availability of any items in a port?

Before the recent updates, I have watched NPC ships arriving at ports and checked the quantity and price of all items in the shop both; before the ship arrived, and after it left, and have never seen it make a difference.

Before patch, the only thing I noticed is that about 60% of the time the incoming traders would have goods that would sell well at the port it was entering and inversely if it were exiting. However an exiting NPC would about 70% of the time have goods that the port did not produce. I am hoping that traders will import goods needed for the port and export goods that the port produces, but at a greater percentage and that it will have a national econ effect. This will help tremendously to make ports have value. And if ports can have some kind of autonomy, it will make it important to keep active with the ports you capture...because maybe the port would revolt and go neutral if nations don't take care of their ports. (wishful thinking) 

[Vizzini]

6 hours ago, Ink said:

The ports do not produce raw crafting resources, they only allow production of a given resource by players. In your case, another player sold hemp produced from his building or captured in pvp/pve (the latter is more likely)

yes, capturing a trader might provide sudden excellent trading options if you are lucky. Remember that almost all trading resources are unique to only one region now. Thus, if you were lucky to loot e.g. Jutland Amber somewhere close to the Gulf shore, you can sell it in a nearby port with a good profit.

thanks, i was hoping it was players dumping and not my fear that resource harvesting was a waste of time.

[Barbancourt]

1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

And if ports can have some kind of autonomy, it will make it important to keep active with the ports you capture...because maybe the port would revolt and go neutral if nations don't take care of their ports. (wishful thinking) 

Stop making sense!  We do not do sense around here!  No sir!

 

[Macjimm]

The new trading seems to be improved.  The option to make high profit for long distance sails provides welcome opportunities.  The introduction of new goods is interesting and the icons (little pictures) for each of the goods are pretty.  Mail/passenger deliveries give traders a chance to obtain doubloons. 

But most importantly, it would be great if the economy was connected to strategic gameplay. 

1. Blockading ports should reduce port production. 
2. NPC should carry items that supply the ports.
3. Sinking NPCs should reduce the drops of items available in destination port. 
4. When players supply items to ports it should affect the port production. 

Has 4. (above)  been implemented yet?  Will it ever be implemented?

What has livestock got to do with White Oak?  Is it random?  Or are cows, chickens, pigs considered food and used to feed woodlot owners and laborers?  Horses used to harvest and transport logs?

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Macjimm

[Angus MacDuff]

In addition to all the other excellent changes to the economy and trading, We need to see AI traders that have full holds.  No self respecting trader sails half empty.

[Teutonic]

6 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

In addition to all the other excellent changes to the economy and trading, We need to see AI traders that have full holds.  No self respecting trader sails half empty.

I agree, and there should still be rare resources in the trade ships for those who like to get it that way.

[Angus MacDuff]

So how the hell do I get teak and WO now??  

[Bleakbeard]

5 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

So how the hell do I get teak and WO now??  

It's in a forest that moves around AFAIK.  Could be in the Bahamas.  Could be in Bermuda or Skull Island; it moves upon depletion.  And you need to be a friendly iirc.

[Sea Archer]

Up to now I haven't capped a trader with useful cargo after the patch. Mostly trade goods or doubloons. One carried pino octe logs, but nothing for ship building so far.

It seems that the game took a turn to clan based production, which makes it very difficult for single players to get materials, especially since town doesn't seem to produce good like logs themselves, so they can be bought.

I would like to have more ai production in the ports, maybe triggered by supplying the ports beans and livestock. 

[Zlatkowar]

16 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

It seems that the game took a turn to clan based production, which makes it very difficult for single players to get materials, especially since town doesn't seem to produce good like logs themselves, so they can be bought.

I share the same feeling, and it makes zero sense to me. They really are forcing people into too many thinks to make the game attractive at a larger scale, it's such a disappointment.

I have found nothing worth of interest in capped traders so far, and out of 5 or 6 sealed bottles I was lucky enough to find 1200 logs of a rare type of wood (can't remember if it was LO or WO) once, and that's the only time I found logs in OW, the rest was trade goods or upgrade components. I have resigned from expecting changes that make sense to me. If I can't find other ways I'll just buy the rare woods I need when I need them with doubloons and voilà.

[Israel Hands]

Personally I believe this econ change was a 'uge step in the wrong direction. Not only does it promote players organized in the larger clans (not really an issue imo, but the point will become clearer) it also makes almost every aspect of a casual players experience even more grinding.. IF they decide to keep grinding that is.

 

Crafting:

Where do you go if you want to be a crafter? Answer is: nowhere. Crafting is neither profitable (and haven't been for years) nor is it realistically possible. The ressource extraction costs more than what you can get from a ship and unless you're in a clan with access to Teak/WO (I know the PvE'ers are already screaming that you don't need rare woods to do PvP!) u can't really sell your ship. This basically means that some of the players I've played with has simply left the game because crafting was what they cared about. How many ships lost ingame has been replaced? Last night I capped a russian Bellona LO/WO, sank a PL Trinc and a PL frig - I'd wager none of those players has had their ships replaced since, I can't say for certain mind you.

Trading:

Trading hasn't really been stress tested, firstly because there's not enough players to actually stress test the economy and secondly because we got to keep all our ships, if the devs wanted to test the econ they'd have to do a full wipe to see how fast or wether we got back to sailing ships at all. Trading still favors the more than average online players, partly due to teleport purchasing (and no I'm not advocating removal of the TP) and mostly because the drops of the trading goods are either unlimited, or if limited, heavily favor of those players which are most online which leads to massive amount of inflation, which in turn basically makes it more or less impossible for new players to get into the trading business or gathering rare books/buying ships etc. I once payed 200 million for a L'Ocean BP and the econ we had back then is basically the same as the one we have now, just with prettier icons. Players with alts will always have an advantage over those without, but new and casual players should still have room to play the game.

Results in terms of playability:

No one wants to be lambs to the slaughter for ppl with access to the rare wood ships, which in turn makes grinding more and more necessary in order to replace lost ships. Fact is: Nobody goes to do PvP in a bad ship, this has been the case from the start, and the problem isn't players mentality but the disadvantage or advantage u get from woods + mods. It's a balance issue that basically forces players to either grind for hours or leave the game. At the moment we've been insulated from the adverse affects of players losing ships since most have had between 15 and 30 ships in the dock to lose (which is the exact reason why devs should've wiped it all), but as time goes on the amount of stored ships gets lost and ppl will find it increasingly difficult to replace their ships and when they realize that - they stop playing. This is an issue. We all remember the 'fine woods' incident, hundreds of players stopped playing and we're basically back to the same system, except now the situation is less tangible atm because we got to keep the ships already crafted. And don't get me wrong, I've got 2 gold endymions, a gold trinc, a gold bellona and a couple of gold L'Oceans (LO/WO and Teak/WO) + a purple santi I use for sunday outings - so I wouldn't exactly be left unmolested by a complete wipe, but we need to test how the current econ would affect players in the long run, personally - I'd guess most will either leave the game or find ways around the scarcity issue (i.e. alts, alts, alts).

 

Just my two dubs and a real.

[Aquillas]

Evening after evening, I am more and more disappointed.

I killed my econ and reals to get some PvP during the WE. As a result, I am done

[Dibbler (Retired)]

 Perhaps is just me but now ships are harder to replace and much faster to lose, will this not lead to less PvP/RvR in general?

 Maybe I am overthinking things.

[van der Clam]

6 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 Perhaps is just me but now ships are harder to replace and much faster to lose, will this not lead to less PvP/RvR in general?

 Maybe I am overthinking things.

Every port has ships to buy from the admiralty and shipyard. It seems people just want only a perfect built ship and don't like that to be rare. I personally like rarity of items in game. I just don't like elite items for only elite players that can then decimate the populace.

[Dibbler (Retired)]

1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

Every port has ships to buy from the admiralty and shipyard. It seems people just want only a perfect built ship and don't like that to be rare. I personally like rarity of items in game. I just don't like elite items for only elite players that can then decimate the populace.

 

 Lets face it Admiralty ships and capped ships are poor (or to be more blunt crap)  when facing modded or even built ships.  Also most ports only offer up to 5th rate in port and only to 5th capturable... which are no match for port battle ships or i would bet even DLC ships with adequate captains.  Along with the latest damage model they are matchwood against 4th rate +, so will people bother lol?

Rarity brings with it restrictions on what players can or are willing to risk, which in turn I think will lead to less port battles, less challenging PvP.  Think of it as time spent doing econ vs action,  if is to much people just won't bother. All this does is aid the Alt armies out there and bigger clans, i mean 10 vic marks to build a victory... isn't this a little to much do you not think?

 Personally I can't be bothered to spend all the time making ships that with current damage model won't last very long, so gave all ships away and will just use herc whenever i feel an urge to check whats happening.   I really do hope that new systems work out and of course there will be tweaks and balancing again, but for me i will now wait until final release to re-invest serious time (and i'm not the only one).

 Less ship availability will i think bleed into less players willing to risk their shiny ships, and no point pvp-ing in substandard (no planking ships).  I think will lead to less RvR, less meaningful PvP and lower playerbase.

I just hope i'm mistaken and good luck to devs, hope when release comes the fun is back.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Dibbler

[van der Clam]

4 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 Lets face it Admiralty ships and capped ships are poor (or to be more blunt crap)  when facing modded or even built ships.  Also most ports only offer up to 5th rate in port and only to 5th capturable... which are no match for port battle ships or i would bet even DLC ships with adequate captains.  Along with the latest damage model they are matchwood against 4th rate +, so will people bother lol?

Rarity brings with it restrictions on what players can or are willing to risk, which in turn I think will lead to less port battles, less challenging PvP,

 Less ship availability will i think bleed into less players willing to risk their shiny ships, and no point pvp-ing in substandard (no planking ships).  I think will lead to less RvR, less meaningful PvP and lower playerbase.

I just hope i'm mistaken.

Certainly, the Admiralty ships suck, but all we ever hear from pros is that the ship doesn't matter, it's the skills that do. (I'd love to see a pro nation spend an entire week of getting their ports attacked while using only Admiralty or ships that aren't 5/5 with the best mods and woods.)

But your response makes my point that nearly all players in this game have...that people want perfect built ships..not junk. It very well may lead to less action and less players. But it is worth a test for awhile, IMO. I like rarity and forcing us to work together as a nation to gather those rare goods.

[Dibbler (Retired)]

9 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

Certainly, the Admiralty ships suck, but all we ever hear from pros is that the ship doesn't matter, it's the skills that do. (I'd love to see a pro nation spend an entire week of getting their ports attacked while using only Admiralty or ships that aren't 5/5 with the best mods and woods.)

But your response makes my point that nearly all players in this game have...that people want perfect built ships..not junk. It very well may lead to less action and less players. But it is worth a test for awhile, IMO. I like rarity and forcing us to work together as a nation to gather those rare goods.

 I really do hope that things work out, but for myself at least I'll just wait now for final release. I have couple of hercs and DLC if ever i fancy sailing, but as for econ and RvR i'm done for now.

Hope things work out overall.

[Palatinose]

5 hours ago, van der Decken said:

Certainly, the Admiralty ships suck, but all we ever hear from pros is that the ship doesn't matter, it's the skills that do. (I'd love to see a pro nation spend an entire week of getting their ports attacked while using only Admiralty or ships that aren't 5/5 with the best mods and woods).

A "pro" who says woods don't matter is obviously not a "pro". Could you please quote some of those saying woods don't matter, as I have never read that.

[Sea Archer]

Even if some woods are rare, it should be possible to get the mats for oak ships without too much effort.

Ai traders should carry those mats or they should be produced in ports by ai, so that not a player based production is necessary for every mat. The rare woods shall be something special, that is ok for me, all others must be available for building ships, for not being dependent on admiraly, only.

[Aquillas]

1 hour ago, Palatinose said:

A "pro" who says woods don't matter is obviously not a "pro". Could you please quote some of those saying woods don't matter, as I have never read that.

 

20 hours ago, rediii said:

You guys are just used to use other woods than oak/oak.

 

Why not just use it in the future? Live/white: Just hugg him and trade broadsides and you win. You are faster.

Teak/white: same but you are slower, its a bit tricky in this case but the cost of the other guys ship exceeds your cost by A LOT while the ability in combat isn't that different.

Just go HP and reload cap in oak/oak ships and hug everyone. Since thickness is nerfed with pen values now I dont see a problem. You guys are just not used to something that is called "change"

 

20 hours ago, rediii said:

Crew resi ok

fire? whats that?

leaks ... is that 1 leak you need more to sink someone?

turn rate, how much % is that?

For example these ones.

And I agree with @rediii that the woods in which ships are built is far less important than the captain skill. Since yesterday, I am sailing in an oak/oak ship, without using the stored ones because I focus to testing this boring patch.

And I still think that sailing in the ship you choose to sail is simply more fun. 

[Nasty Wombat]

On 3/6/2019 at 4:33 PM, Suppenkelle said:

Never was I ever dragged into PvP battle while on my way to PvE. Do you really think that is risky? 

definitely but also depends on your nation

[admin]

8 hours ago, Eleazar de Damas said:

I killed my econ and reals to get some PvP during the WE. As a result, I am done

Lets focus
Focus on specifics. What exactly you cannot replace and why? What do you mean you killed your econ and reals to get some pvp

[Aquillas]

21 minutes ago, admin said:

Lets focus
Focus on specifics. What exactly you cannot replace and why? What do you mean you killed your econ and reals to get some pvp

Very simple.

I made some PvP and lost ships.For replacing, I started mine exploitation (coal, iron, oak, fir, hemp) to resume crafting capability. I did not notice that this is now a ruining activity. I saw, after hemp collection, too late, that my reals vanished to some dozens left only.

I tried to get back to healty situation by hunting NPC traders. I went from Fort-Royal to near Scarborough, and found nothing worth, then to North of la Desirade, in my brand new oak/oak medium gun Cerberus.I filled the hold with fish and salt before finally finding a single traders  snow, which I captured. 

So great! At the end of this boring 3 hours, I earned 3 salted pork... This gave 4k reals, after selling the traders too.

[admin]

10 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

1  Trading still favors the more than average online players, partly due to teleport purchasing (and no I'm not advocating removal of the TP) and mostly because the drops of the trading goods are either unlimited, or if limited, heavily favor of those players which are most online which leads to massive amount of inflation

 

2 Players with alts will always have an advantage over those without, but new and casual players should still have room to play the game.

 

Not sure i understand 1.
Trading resources cannot be contracted and are mostly always available when you sail to port. There is a good supply of them and there is at least 75 trading hubs that generate good amount of good for trading (+ capitals which bring european goods). Just find a trade route you like and trade it as much as you want. 
In terms of inflation, it is a concern but because the prices of raw materials are fixed, you can always build the ship you want yourself. New building productions allow a solo player to build any oak/oak ship he wants in reasonable time (4 days of LH for a 1st rate, built with just one click, comparing with 60+ days for a titan in eve)

On 2 also not seeing the issue
You can make a certain profit in an hour in trading, and unless you multi box, you get the same amount of profit per hour. The comment that someone gets more if he invests more hours is moot as it is given and is just state of the things in all games: if you play more you will get more xp and more loot. On the per hour perspective it does not give more advantage.

Compare these two situations

• Player 1 plays 2 hours per day.
  • He can make 2 frigates per day solo, or he can make 1 Agamemnons per day
  • These ships are enough for a 2 hour session
  • If he is part of the clan he can make more ships by specializing in resources
• Player 2 plays 10 hours per day
  • He still can make 2 frigates per day solo, and he can make 1 agamemnon per day
  • Let's say he also bought the game for his alts/friends; as a result he makes more ships of course,

some people have clan mates, some people have imaginary friends alts replicating a personal empire.

solo player considering his 1-2hour session has everything he needs (or maybe we are not seeing something)
Kill missions are unlimited and are now closer to ports than before. You spend 10-15 mins per mission 
Bots are plenty
PVP Patrol zones allow you to get rewards purely for damage
And there is plenty of ways to get doubloons for a 2 hour session.

I dont get it - maybe you should elaborate in more detail.