Patch 30: Trading feedback

[Abram Svensson]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm von Seydlitz said:

Afk Tradesailing and playing Civilisation 6 with Alt-Tab it works 🙂
But that can not be the sense in a game.

Netflix or Youtube on 2nd screen and i am thinking about connecting my 2nd screen with my PS4.

[Angus MacDuff]

19 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

How gathering 3 million Real in a day is required ?  You choose to do so, if you don't enjoy it don't do it, i don't understand the problem. You got a good profit, if that was not your goal, why did you do it ?  

If you discover today that naval action offer nothing to do appart sightseeing during navigation (+stress of pvp encounter on war server ofc) it's been discussed since years, people asked for minigames/managements/stuff to do while sailing, and we got a pray button, auto fishing, dice game, two of those having been removed. 

 If the problem is that you expect to make a same profit in less time / less distance and this possibility have been removed, what can i tell, do shorter run, get less profit, but profit still..

This illustrates the differences in play style on the PVP server. Some players play to trade.  Their focus is on acquisition (with some danger).  Others play to PVP.  Their focus is on hunting other players (and do necessary trade).  Finding the balance to keep everyone happy is the challenge.  I will be happy if the resources remain available and if there is a way for me to be sure that I will make a reasonable profit on the short hauls.  I don't need 3mil in a day but I would like to be able to make a couple of hundred in an hour.  I'm far more concerned about the rare resource issue.  As a solo player, i'm very worried that it will not be available to me.  In the past, I crafted all my stuff (guns, reps, ships).  I hate that rare woods and other important resources will be under the control of another player.  It should never be the case that one group of players (clan) can affect the gameplay of the rest to that extent.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Angus MacDuff

[Sir Max Magic]

41 minutes ago, Wilhelm von Seydlitz said:

Afk Tradesailing and playing Civilisation 6 with Alt-Tab it works 🙂
But that can not be the sense in a game.

+1

AFK Tradesailing and doing his work, make calls, answer emails, calculate things which has to get calculated...all this stuff works like in no other game (except those pesky pirates who may disturb you in the middle of a bussiness call  )...

...but as my foreposter pointed out correctly, that cant be the sense of a game  

 

[Archaos]

At the end of the day I do not think it matters what they do with the trading as long as the trade items are just items to make money and have no use in game. Okay someone did a 11 hour run and made 2.4 million, no matter how you look at it that is still 2.4 million added to the economy, which will feed inflation. It does not matter if you have a total wipe and everyone starts with zero Reals, all you have to do is kill an AI and get some reals and start trading, you will eventually build up your money to millions as long as you make some profit on your runs, all that takes time is building your cash reserve to the point where you can fill your 3 or 4 Indiamen as that becomes the limiting factor, how much you can carry in one run.

There is no supply and demand built into the system and prices do not fluctuate, if you find the right run it is always pure profit unless you get intercepted. Every PvE activity in the game generates profit and the money sinks are not taking enough of it out of the game, so within a month we will be back where we were before the resources wipe.

[Sir Max Magic]

10 minutes ago, Archaos said:

At the end of the day I do not think it matters what they do with the trading as long as the trade items are just items to make money and have no use in game. Okay someone did a 11 hour run and made 2.4 million, no matter how you look at it that is still 2.4 million added to the economy, which will feed inflation. It does not matter if you have a total wipe and everyone starts with zero Reals, all you have to do is kill an AI and get some reals and start trading, you will eventually build up your money to millions as long as you make some profit on your runs, all that takes time is building your cash reserve to the point where you can fill your 3 or 4 Indiamen as that becomes the limiting factor, how much you can carry in one run.

There is no supply and demand built into the system and prices do not fluctuate, if you find the right run it is always pure profit unless you get intercepted. Every PvE activity in the game generates profit and the money sinks are not taking enough of it out of the game, so within a month we will be back where we were before the resources wipe.

Mate, again, and many may have overlooked that, he did this on PVE Server !

There is no way, he could do this on PVP Server choosing the same routes and ports without being intercepted and all of his 4 Indiamens got sunk !!

...he stated this by himself...

 

The resulting loss would be so gigantic, he would need weeks to recover from that, because the lost trade goods were worth millions...

...so again, comparing Trading on PVE with PVP Server is like comparing apples with oranges  

[Teutonic]

So which ports did he choose?

Or are we just going to assume it doesn't work on pvp server?

I already know of a few routes my friends and I do to get decent profits and so far are unhindered with very few sightings of enemy players.

[Angus MacDuff]

The thing I found is that I used a medium distance trade route that gave a decent profit.  Took me over an hour to do it.  Then I found a much shorter route (15 mins) with almost the same profit.  Since I can run it four times instead of once, it is now my preferred route.  With less risk of course.  Remains to be seen how long the resources will be there for me. 

[Sir Max Magic]

15 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

So which ports did he choose?

Or are we just going to assume it doesn't work on pvp server?

I already know of a few routes my friends and I do to get decent profits and so far are unhindered with very few sightings of enemy players.

 

13 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Normal when in your primetime there are 200 players playing.

All of this doesnt matter, because this trade run was a not working example, because everything he did was on the extreme:

- PVE Server

- 4 Indiamens without Cannons

- 800.000 starting wallet

- nearly 12 hours of sailing around involved

- no competitors for the needed resources

- etc...

ALL of this would neither work on PVP Server in general nor for the majority of Players !!! So his example was badly used to support his cause, which btw. was the opposite than many are assuming now  

...and we all would need weeks or even months with the current system to get the 800.000 reals when after release everything is wiped  

 

That is what should be our measuring standard when we rate the new econ system:

How quick players can get started again with a new career and earn some decent profit to found their progression before they lose interest in the game !!!

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Sir Max Magic

[Teutonic]

We jotted down the route earlier in this thread, and honestly the profit made is fine.

If you want to make a lot of money, then go the distance or find what works for you. There are a lot of routes that aren't crazy distance that still give you a good profit.

Find them. We have resources to make it easy like na-map.

[Angus MacDuff]

8 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

...and we all would need weeks or even months with the current system to get the 800.000 reals when after release everything is wiped  

I don't agree with that.  I started with 50k and had 200k in an hour(ish).  I could easily make 800k in a day (booorrrrrinnnggggg).  Starting with zero, what do you do?  Start capping traders and sell their goods (and the ships).  Seed money is easy.  Since I always escort my traders, I can be taking AI traders while doing the trade runs.

[Tom Farseer]

For those advocating for more content on long trade sails in OW I have but one question:

What content do you think can/should be added?
Trading is exactly that. Sailing from A to B to buy/sell stuff and make a profit of it. Do you want minigames to keep you busy? You might as well just Alt-Tab out to another window and do something else, then. Watch a movie or whatever. I did laundry while trading sometimes. Unless the added content actually affects gameplay, it will only treat the symptoms....
 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tom Farseer
spelling, grammar, formatting

[Tom Farseer]

48 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Mate, again, and many may have overlooked that, he did this on PVE Server !

There is no way, he could do this on PVP Server choosing the same routes and ports without being intercepted and all of his 4 Indiamens got sunk !!

...he stated this by himself...

Then how come half my clan did it on the PVP server?
All sailing alone and not in a big group i might add, so the exact same thing. Just minor differences in trading routes chosen, resulting in slightly lower profit margins.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Angus MacDuff]

3 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Then how come half my clan did it on the PVP server?
All sailing alone and not in a big group i might add, so the exact same thing. Just minor differences in trading routes chosen, resulting in slightly lower profit margins.

Nice!  Sailing alone, is it?  I hope they use things like guns and escorts......Now where exactly would that take place??  Joking aside, it is good for the game if people are out trading.  It is to be hoped that this system works to get the ships out there.  That is truly the only point to this whole test (IMHO).

[Teutonic]

3 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Nice!  Sailing alone, is it?  I hope they use things like guns and escorts......Now where exactly would that take place??  Joking aside, it is good for the game if people are out trading.  It is to be hoped that this system works to get the ships out there.  That is truly the only point to this whole test (IMHO).

I believe the system we have now works because it makes every port have the ability to make tax income. 

Plus trading is trading - you can't really add "content" to it as @Tom Farseer states. 

Heck you can create escort convoys with your friends. Suddenly you're a fleet and can protect each other while you all make money. 

[Tom Farseer]

18 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Nice!  Sailing alone, is it?  I hope they use things like guns and escorts......Now where exactly would that take place??  Joking aside, it is good for the game if people are out trading.  It is to be hoped that this system works to get the ships out there.  That is truly the only point to this whole test (IMHO).

I'll gladly take on your trader-hunting 5th rate on my Bellona and two gunned up Indiamen 😜
EDIT: Though if your Location info is accurate, time zones may prevent that from happening...

Edited March 8, 2019 by Tom Farseer

[Archaos]

48 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

How quick players can get started again with a new career and earn some decent profit to found their progression before they lose interest in the game !!!

I think you miss the point altogether, there is more than one way to make money in the game, even starting with zero Reals and a basic cutter you can go out and cap a LGV to get some basic seed money of a few thousand Reals, and have others have said they have turned 50k into 200k in about an hour (and that was on the PvP server). So for anyone serious about making money the opportunities are there although the task is boring.

Edit: Also looking at his route it could easily be done on the PvP server as majority of the route is in one of the least populated sea regions on the map, so all you have to do is get a clean getaway from the home port region and a clear arrival at your destination, the chances of meeting serious opposition in between is minimal especially if you use sextant perk and do not direct sail.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Archaos

[I Shot Got]

 

No it demonstrated exactly what it should have.

1. It works as advertised.

2. It takes time.

It also demonstrates that it's not practical for casual players even in pieces of 2hrs a day.

It has implications to the game over all.

Questions you should be asking yourself - would I do this (even if over several days), would I enjoy it. Does it make the game more presentable and playable for NEW players and casual players alike.

My only intent was to do as asked, TEST IT, and provide feedback which I did, the money made was not important the length of time needed was.

The route was Christiansted - St. George - Flatts - Higuey - Gibraltar- Sinamaica - Christiansted. The Risk on PvP is  ST. George, passing through La Mona passage and going through the straits to Gibralter all enemy ports bar Higuey which no one owns. Timing would be everything - you could get in and out during low periods of activity but it would still be a risk.

I maxed out the goods deliberately to see what could be achieved. Norwegian Fox Fur, Jutland Amber, Porcelain to St. George. Madagasgar Jewels and Atlantic Salmon to Gibraltar, Topaz, Aguayo Cloth and Chile Saltpeter back to Christiansted. (Mixed cargo because not enough of a single item to fill all holds  - read into that that far more profit can be made)

Distance travelled.

Christiansted - St. George 775km

Flatts - Gibraltar 1209km

Gibraltar - Christiansted 490km

Not including deviations into Sinamaica and Higuey.

Four fully packed Indiaman - not the fastest - I had one disconnect of around 10 possibly 20 mins (damn the 30 min kick out).

All time was used in sailing buying or selling cargo. I did take three missions but did not deviate for the letters/passengers completing them later.

Is this practical on PvP server. I would suggest not.

It is nothing more than a test - one that could be done on PvP if you wanted to waste your ships, cargo and go unarmed. The question is would you. If you answer is no then why - what are the implications - 2 traders with 2 escorts - is the hours spent worth the risk etc etc etc.

I chose to test the mechanics so while some of you are pointing out 'You chose to do it' try looking at it from another angle like how it impacts on, and in, the game. Is it practical? PvE server certainly no risk. PvP up to you! Does this make the game more enjoyable or even more playable. Does it suit your style of play, will it in fact suit any ones.

For me it adds nothing to the game . Why because as I pointed out earlier Clans will make short safe runs in bulk and make the same money far quicker. Players running alts will do the same. Join the two together and in a couple of weeks they will be rich again. While single and casual players will begin to get frustrated yet again.

The argument that I started with 800.000 is mute I could make enough money and capture and loot enough ships and sell it to the shop to buy the required items over time. As it should be.

It won't stop players becoming rich in fact I doubt it will slow some down at all.

This whole thread is supposed to be about feed back on the mechanics.

Well I've tested a long route - what have you done!

Regards Shot (Spy)

[Angus MacDuff]

8 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

I'll gladly take on your trader-hunting 5th rate on my Bellona and two gunned up Indiamen 😜
EDIT: Though if your Location info is accurate, time zones may prevent that from happening...

I would not tag in a situation like that.  You show what a smart trader does and that's great.  Now I have to gather some friends and we have content!.  There are all sorts of traders out there and some are not so smart.  Still, as I said, it's all good for the game. 

[Tom Farseer]

6 minutes ago, I Shot Got said:

 

No it demonstrated exactly what it should have.

[...]

It would seem the current state of affairs of one's Nation in RvR has a rather heavy impact on one's trading capabilities. One of my favourite current trade routes will earn me about 50k net profit per Indiaman while sailing about 300k through entirely friendly waters. So going there and back is roughly two hours and 200k profit sailing two Indiamen and a large escort ship.
For me that is enough income per hour spent sailing. a slightly shorter route has less profit but also less time to sail. It mostly evens out though.
That may be fairly difficult for players in smaller nations. Whether that is a good desgin choice is another discussion (the nations have different difficulties stated after all).

So for players who want lower risk that means lower rewards, which is good in my books. Overall tuning of profit per minutes spent sailing, can still be adjusted.
I'm fine with it but I don't spend much, as I don't lose ship toooooo often and I don't always need Carta/NorthernMasters/EliteFrechnRefit to have my fun
Repairs might get expensive on current model. but we will see.

[Teutonic]

11 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

It would seem the current state of affairs of one's Nation in RvR has a rather heavy impact on one's trading capabilities. One of my favourite current trade routes will earn me about 50k net profit per Indiaman while sailing about 300k through entirely friendly waters. So going there and back is roughly two hours and 200k profit sailing two Indiamen and a large escort ship.
For me that is enough income per hour spent sailing. a slightly shorter route has less profit but also less time to sail. It mostly evens out though.
That may be fairly difficult for players in smaller nations. Whether that is a good desgin choice is another discussion (the nations have different difficulties stated after all).

So for players who want lower risk that means lower rewards, which is good in my books. Overall tuning of profit per minutes spent sailing, can still be adjusted.
I'm fine with it but I don't spend much, as I don't lose ship toooooo often and I don't always need Carta/NorthernMasters/EliteFrechnRefit to have my fun
Repairs might get expensive on current model. but we will see.

you make a good point - If you want some good trade routes, RvR may be able to help make that a good factor. RvR has meaning? I thought it was boring... 🤔

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Few question i'm still asking myself about the recent changes:

 

- Drop rate of rare ress was supposed to be influenced by the supplying of the consumed ress, either by traders delivery, or by denying ia traders delivery, is it still incoming or maybe already in place ? Or will it come next patch ?

 

- How the distance affect the price of goods exactly ? I mean if i capture an ai trader with danish goods on the gulf of mexico, will they sell at the max price at local ports as they are far from christiansted ? Or trade hubs & nation capitals are still the best buyers for each regions but the farther the region, the more the trade hub will pay for it? 

 

 

[Macjimm]

10 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

- Drop rate of rare ress was supposed to be influenced by the supplying of the consumed ress, either by traders delivery, or by denying ia traders delivery, is it still incoming or maybe already in place ? Or will it come next patch ?

-  ai trader with danish goods on the gulf of mexico, will they sell at the max price at local ports as they are far from christiansted ? Or trade hubs & nation capitals are still the best buyers for each regions but the farther the region, the more the trade hub will pay for it? 

These are excellent questions.  Has anyone found out?  Will the Devs answer?

Also does port production increase if players supply resources/goods to the port?  And if so does it matter what type of goods?

If traders NPC ships reach ports does the port production (and drops) increase proportional to their cargo?

[Ink]

4 hours ago, Vizzini said:

right now it looks to me that by using my hours harvesting hemp i lose money. Its cheaper to wait until a port has it for sale. If it didn't appear by magic  (or if it doesnt ..oops didnt realise ) then that could provide a source of income to those willing to do it 

The ports do not produce raw crafting resources, they only allow production of a given resource by players. In your case, another player sold hemp produced from his building or captured in pvp/pve (the latter is more likely)

Quote

-  ai trader with danish goods on the gulf of mexico, will they sell at the max price at local ports as they are far from christiansted ? Or trade hubs & nation capitals are still the best buyers for each regions but the farther the region, the more the trade hub will pay for it?

yes, capturing a trader might provide sudden excellent trading options if you are lucky. Remember that almost all trading resources are unique to only one region now. Thus, if you were lucky to loot e.g. Jutland Amber somewhere close to the Gulf shore, you can sell it in a nearby port with a good profit.

[DeRuyter]

6 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I don't agree with that.  I started with 50k and had 200k in an hour(ish).  I could easily make 800k in a day (booorrrrrinnnggggg).  Starting with zero, what do you do?  Start capping traders and sell their goods (and the ships).  Seed money is easy.  Since I always escort my traders, I can be taking AI traders while doing the trade runs.

First thing I did was cap an LGV - Got 10 units of trade goods within sight of a consuming port - about 10k profit. 

[van der Clam]

I'm liking the new trade econ. It feels more realistic than just being able to make large profits from any capital port. The only thing I wish is that players had influence over the development of these trading hubs...making their population and town size and econ demand change based on our deliveries. ATM, I find trader capping is the easiest meta...sailing the goods to a high value port is just a plus. I just wish this merchant capping had some kind of larger influence on the nation of the ship.