Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

[Sir Max Magic]

4 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

Limiting carros for upper decks only is the way to go? additionaly nerfing some damage? 

Hercules, Suprise etc. should not be carronade monsters. It is killing the shallows. 

You shouldnt forget that now, when damage to Bow gets transferred again to structure...Captains again have a chance to keep enemys with Longs on distance because they can just shoot the Bow directly again !!!

No more careless Bow-tanking...a Captain who is now sailing just straight to his target to get in Carros range, is risking to loosing half or more of his structure when the enemy Captain aim well with his Longs and kill his structure with just shooting the Bow  

Ofc we all have to test this but from the logic it seems to me that Long Range engagements will be possible and doable again...

 

Btw. @admin, can a ship again sink by just taking leaks to the Bow ??? 2 years ago this was possible but with the old damage model not anymore...would be interesting if this is again a viable option  

[Kejsaren]

3 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

You shouldnt forget that now, when damage to Bow gets transferred again to structure...Captains again have a chance to keep enemys with Longs on distance because they can just shoot the Bow directly again !!!

No more careless Bow-tanking...a Captain who is now sailing just straight to his target to get in Carros range, is risking to loosing half or more of his structure when the enemy Captain aim well with his Longs and kill his structure with just shooting the Bow  

Ofc we all have to test this but from the logic it seems to me that Long Range engagements will be possible and doable again...

 

Btw. @admin, can a ship again sink by just taking leaks to the Bow ??? 2 years ago this was possible but with the old damage model not anymore...would be interesting if this is again a viable option  

Yes I think cartagena refit will be top upgrade now, 

About to see how well fir/fir boarding set endy will do... my guess 1 broadside and I be sinking lol.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Castañon del Rey

[Liq]

uhmm

 

[MassimoSud]

My first impression on the combat model:
Pros
1. SoLs are now the queens of the seas (perhaps too much).
2. Bow and stern tanking no longer work!
3. New cannons DPS very good!
Cons
1. Cannons penetration is exaggerated! The tickness is no longer valid, only the side and hull points count (almost useless atm)! Angling now is too difficult or almost useless. I suggest to increase the tickness or decrease the penetration. I do not doubt that a 42-pound cannonball could do damage to 1000 meters, but certainly the possibility that it hit the target from that distance were really small! I'd like the guns to have a lot more dispersion from 150 mt up (especially for carronades and mids). Having all this penetration only favors distance battles (it was more fun before when to do damage you had to be close, and this is also historically more accurate).

Thanks and good work!

[admin]

1 hour ago, Liq said:

uhmm

 

What hmmm?

In  the Action of 4 September 1782, the impact of a single carronade broadside fired at close range by the frigate HMS Rainbow under Henry Trollope caused a wounded French captain to capitulate and surrender the Hébé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_4_September_1782

 

Importance of the first shot is important. Position yourself properly, Get the right first shot and you win the fight. There might be some tuning here and there but we love it in general. 

not sure if it needs changing. price for carronades must go up. but damage not sure. 32lb ball is the 32lb ball.

[Cecil Selous]

31 minutes ago, MassimoSud said:

1. Cannons penetration is exaggerated! The tickness is no longer valid, only the side and hull points count (almost useless atm)! Angling now is too difficult or almost useless. I suggest to increase the tickness or decrease the penetration. I do not doubt that a 42-pound cannonball could do damage to 1000 meters, but certainly the possibility that it hit the target from that distance were really small! I'd like the guns to have a lot more dispersion from 150 mt up (especially for carronades and mids). Having all this penetration only favors distance battles (it was more fun before when to do damage you had to be close, and this is also historically more accurate).

Thanks and good work!

It's not the penetration. It is the bonkers idea that 40 balls (of varying sizes) that penetrate the hull is somehow enough to possibly absolutely destroy a ship. Not even mentioning that single shooting into an enemy that decided to bow tank immediately decreases structure and if he is unlucky even by a very big amount.

In the video that Liq posted, Reverse managed to get 17 shots penetrating the hull. With that he killed (or as some like to say disabled) 4 crew members and no cannons. But the ship is almost done. 17 small iron balls!!!! I wonder what the rest of the crew is thinking. They must be absolutely perplexed what is suddenly happening to their ship. Who build this ship?, why did I join the navy?, this is ridiculous...

The emphasis in the damage model is imho on the wrong variable, the artificial hull HP pool (structure too). At least the way it works now is way off and absolutely not historical despite everyone using this term frequently.

[admin]

2 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

17 shots penetrating the hull. With that he killed (or as some like to say disabled) 4 crew members and no cannons. despite everyone using this term frequently.

 based on HMS Rainbow vs HEBE these numbers feel very historical. Hebe surrendered after one broadside - losing 5 men

[Cecil Selous]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

What hmmm?

In  the Action of 4 September 1782, the impact of a single carronade broadside fired at close range by the frigate HMS Rainbow under Henry Trollope caused a wounded French captain to capitulate and surrender the Hébé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_4_September_1782

 

Importance of the first shot is important. Position yourself properly, Get the right first shot and you win the fight. There might be some tuning here and there but we love it in general. 

You read the article right?

[z4ys]

10 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

You read the article right?

Quote

Vigny examined the fragments of the hollow carronade shot and concluded that if she was firing 32-pounders as chase pieces she was actually a ship of the line in disguise. He fired one broadside, "pour l'honneur du pavillon,"  and struck his colours.

...

A council of war was met at Morlaix whereby the loss of a new frigate, with barely a fight, condemned Vigny to fifteen years in prison, the case of his rank and service being declared as unfit for service

?

But regarding NA. Both ships are of the same class - yes first broadside should matter but thats a bit overkill in my opinion.

Edited March 1, 2019 by z4ys

[Vernon Merrill]

Can we just reduce damage by say 25% and see if we actually can find the sweet spot?!   I'm ok with the changes as they prevent magic bow/stern tanking, but the damage leads to SLIGHTLY too short engagements that put the "fun factor" a bit off for me....

[Draymoor]

@admin 'Close range' being the key factor. In the video, Reverse was not at all in close range. FIring carros like they had rifle accuracy. The damage is fine, their other stats make them way overpowered. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Draymoor

[admin]

1 minute ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Can we just reduce damage by say 25% and see if we actually can find the sweet spot?!   I'm ok with the changes as they prevent magic bow/stern tanking, but the damage leads to SLIGHTLY too short engagements that put the "fun factor" a bit off for me....

I wonder if the question is - what is the engagement, is properly bringing the ship to the get the first shot is also important (because previously it did not matter at all). 
You probably remember that in many battles ships were silenced up to 20 mins after they got shot (even if they were ready for firing)

[z4ys]

6 minutes ago, Draymoor said:

@admin 'Close range' being the key factor. In the video, Reverse was not at all in close range. FIring carros like they had rifle accuracy. The damage is fine, their other stats make them way overpowered. 

Quote

Essex was armed almost entirely with powerful but short range 32-pounder carronades that gave Phoebe, armed with long 18-pounders, a decisive advantage at long range. For 2 ¹⁄₂ hours, Phoebe and Cherub bombarded Essex from long range where Essex could only resist with her few long 12-pounders

Cant find a range indication

Edited March 1, 2019 by z4ys

[Liq]

28 minutes ago, admin said:

What hmmm?

In  the Action of 4 September 1782, the impact of a single carronade broadside fired at close range by the frigate HMS Rainbow under Henry Trollope caused a wounded French captain to capitulate and surrender the Hébé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_4_September_1782

 

Importance of the first shot is important. Position yourself properly, Get the right first shot and you win the fight. There might be some tuning here and there but we love it in general. 

not sure if it needs changing. price for carronades must go up. but damage not sure. 32lb ball is the 32lb ball.

Yes it might be realistic and suit a "hardcore mode" à la battlefield without map, any info and where you die from a 2-3 hits

But for the current game i feel like it is a little bit too much

[Socialism]

36 minutes ago, admin said:

What hmmm?

In  the Action of 4 September 1782, the impact of a single carronade broadside fired at close range by the frigate HMS Rainbow under Henry Trollope caused a wounded French captain to capitulate and surrender the Hébé

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_4_September_1782

 

Importance of the first shot is important. Position yourself properly, Get the right first shot and you win the fight. There might be some tuning here and there but we love it in general. 

not sure if it needs changing. price for carronades must go up. but damage not sure. 32lb ball is the 32lb ball.

This is all fine and good.  If you want high damage output, decisive battles and increase the battles per hour....the combat model achieves this.

Then on the flip side you made resources harder to get and still continue on with the doubloons costs.  Not to mention mods.  1 live oak port.......  

You have 2 opposing takes that aren't going to meet in the middle and will cause frustration with players who are not in big clans and have decent ship lines.  

Ships being easier to sink needs to = ships easier to make.  

6 minutes ago, Liq said:

Yes it might be realistic and suit a "hardcore mode" à la battlefield without map, any info and where you die from a 2-3 hits

But for the current game i feel like it is a little bit too much

New damage model is fine.  Game needs to change around it and it has yet to do so.

[Vernon Merrill]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

I wonder if the question is - what is the engagement, is properly bringing the ship to the get the first shot is also important (because previously it did not matter at all). 
You probably remember that in many battles ships were silenced up to 20 mins after they got shot (even if they were ready for firing)

I don't disagree.....   And all in all I think the changes are something even I can get used to.   I'm just giving a bit of feedback on where I think the needle is on realism versus "fun factor"...  I think its close.  I just think its a bit too heavy still...

But you are correct in that the first one to land a solid broadside is definitely in control of the engagement now....  Also, you now have to think about popping a repair almost immediately on the start of the battle in order to mitigate consequences of NOT getting the first shot in.

I DO like the fact that I THINK it will change the met away from strictly speed-fitted ships for the OW...  I've already determined that my PvP ships will no longer be strictly teak/teak....  The margin for error is simply too small...

[HachiRoku]

15 minutes ago, admin said:

I wonder if the question is - what is the engagement, is properly bringing the ship to the get the first shot is also important (because previously it did not matter at all). 
You probably remember that in many battles ships were silenced up to 20 mins after they got shot (even if they were ready for firing)

thats only because of multi reps. Mistakes never mattered because you can kite for 15 min and youre good. I dont have a big problem with them anymore since we do more damage in battles now. Im enjoying combat in naval action alot now and making ships slower was great

 

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

Carros and poods do seem like they need significant tweaking to balance.

[Draymoor]

21 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Cant find a range indication

I was referring to the video. But the disadvantage of carros is supposed to be their short range. Their real life range is not that important since NA ships don't have realistic sailing characteristics either and there's too much predictability and too accurate control of ships. At the moment the short range disadvantage of carros doesn't seem to be enough based on the video posted. Not only are they very effective at medium range but also too accurate. 

[admin]

31 minutes ago, Liq said:

Yes it might be realistic and suit a "hardcore mode" à la battlefield without map, any info and where you die from a 2-3 hits

But for the current game i feel like it is a little bit too much

We dont disagree.. - need a bit of tuning. 
i am thinking slightly reducing penenetrations for all guns. 
increasing thickness (also slightly) 
and buffing 4th rates so they can stay in line at list for a bit.
and reducing carrons accuracy
 

 

[Vernon Merrill]

10 minutes ago, admin said:

We dont disagree.. - need a bit of tuning. 
i am thinking slightly reducing penenetrations for all guns. 
increasing thickness (also slightly) 
and buffing 4th rates so they can stay in line at list for a bit.
and reducing carrons accuracy
 

 

That sounds awesome.

 

[z4ys]

8 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Yeah we have a lack of thickness problem now. The angling game is almost gone.

I actual do like that part. would just love to see more HP

[z4ys]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

More HP is too dumb for my taste, as it is a stat that you have or dont have. But through good angling you increase thickness, which is more of a skill thing.

and feels plain wrong

[Liq]

It feels like carronades pen on a much longer range now? What was the reason for that?

[Malachi]

 

1 hour ago, z4ys said:

Essex was armed almost entirely with powerful but short range 32-pounder carronades that gave Phoebe, armed with long 18-pounders, a decisive advantage at long range. For 2 ¹⁄₂ hours, Phoebe and Cherub bombarded Essex from long range where Essex could only resist with her few long 12-pounders 

Just want to add that the Brits faced similar problems in the gunboat war with the Danes. Danish brigs stayed out of the effective range of the british brigs (mostly armed with 24- and 32-pound carronades), but their armament of short (and long, in case of the Lollands) 18s enabled them to shoot at the british.

 

13 minutes ago, z4ys said:

and feels plain wrong 

Hell yes, it does   Angling...brrrrrrr.