Better Ships for All!

[staun]

@pit think admin have stated a crafted had about 3,5 bigger chance to get a an extra bonus. Wether it is much ore not, I can’t say because it depend on the actually chance. Is i 1-10 ore 1-1000.000. 

You idea have some merit, if we use the Dlc ship as the reason, should the extra crafting bonus then not be restricted to the same classes.?

[Draymoor]

One question I'd ask @admin is... If the DLC ships were not DLC and were other normal in-game ships, would they be considered to need a nerf? Or are they only protected from nerfs cause they are DLC? 
If the answer is that they can't be nerfed cause they are DLC ships then there's definitely a problem. If DLC is simply about some convenience for players that don't want to be bothered with playing the open world part of the game (why that needs to be a thing I still don't understand either). Then why are DLC not simply the same ships that can be obtained in the game through playing? We can have the convenience of 'free ships' daily but why do they need to be some special ship instead of being the same as ones that are obtained through normal play, that seems beyond just convenience. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Draymoor

[p i t]

19 minutes ago, staun said:

@pit think admin have stated a crafted had about 3,5 bigger chance to get a an extra bonus. Wether it is much ore not, I can’t say because it depend on the actually chance. Is i 1-10 ore 1-1000.000. 

You idea have some merit, if we use the Dlc ship as the reason, should the extra crafting bonus then not be restricted to the same classes.?

1st, thats the problem, crafted ships have a slim chance in being a noticeable advanced ship over DLC. why not make that chance a consistency. If you guys look back at the clipped picture on the OP i posted, it says crafted ships MUST be better, not have a chance of being better.

2nd I dont know that depends if they release more dlc ships of other classes, but again, admin stated that class does not matter.

Edited December 4, 2018 by pit

[Capn Rocko]

I dont have a problem with the requin and hercules. I just don't think they are balanced to compete with shallow water ships. The other shallow water ships are at a huge disadvantage IMO and it appears admin is avoiding that aspect or simply doesn't think it is a big problem having nothing but hercs in Nassau patrol. 

I have never been sunk by a hercules when sailing in another 5th rate so that leads me to think that players who are losing battles to hercules are just in-fact losing battles to better skilled captains OR are being ganked by multiple hercs. Take those captains out of the herc and into another meta 5th rate and I bet the outcome is the same. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Capn Rocko

[staun]

11 minutes ago, pit said:

1st, thats the problem, crafted ships have a slim chance in being a noticeable advanced ship over DLC. why not make that chance a consistency. If you guys look back at the clipped picture on the OP i posted, it says crafted ships MUST be better, not have a chance of being better.

2nd I dont know that depends if they release more dlc ships of other classes, but again, admin stated that class does not matter.

My next question is the one always seems to forgeten. Maybe I just are more of a realist than a dreamer. Why should ppl buy a Dlc ship if it is worse then other ships and I dont say it has to be better. Personally I think every Dlc ship also should be crafteble. And if ppl don’t buy the the Dlc, how are we to fund the game? I seriously doubt many online game only takes the cost price for the game and not more. Some can because they know ppl will by the next game in the series.

I for sure can see things way worse than it is now. Think is they only had let one ship in each cladd be avaible and the rest you had to buy as a Dlc just to craft it. Personally I have a hard time see the Dlc is screwing everything of. They should not be better, But I don’t Understand why it should be punished either.

[Angus MacDuff]

19 minutes ago, pit said:

1st, thats the problem, crafted ships have a slim chance in being a noticeable advanced ship over DLC.

This is the root of the problem.  You think that crafted ships are inferior to DLC ships.  Just not true.  I can kill half a dozen different 5th rates (and some 4ths) in my Herc, not because I'm in an OP ship, but because the players are not very skilled.  When I meet up with a good player in a (supposedly) inferior ship, he wipes me out.  Additionally, we don't need a higher chance of crafting superior ships right away.  We want the 3/5 to be crafted, because they are what keep a large part of the population at sea.  If you could craft a 5/5 all the time, you wouldn't craft any more.

[jodgi]

17 minutes ago, Draymoor said:

Or are they only protected from nerfs cause they are DLC? 

Don't worry about that. A global rebalance of ships could include dlc's. As I understand it's the cool down that can't easily be touched.

Admin had said he wants to go back to individual and special sailing profiles. Changes are very possible.

Consider this... The forum outrage after a dlc-only nerf would be quite severe. 

[p i t]

21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

he wipes me out.

then your aren't very good are you

 

21 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

If you could craft a 5/5 all the time, you wouldn't craft any more

Never said they have to be 5/5 but rather 4/5 with the possibility of being 5/5, OR really any other idea such as giving crafteable refits on the ships (Boston refit) The objective is to have dlc players also want to craft ships because there's another incentive, not to make DLC ships completely irrelevant. 

Trust me a 4/5 or 5/5 ship is not unbeatable of your 3/5 dlc ship

Edited December 4, 2018 by pit

[Hethwill]

All DLC Green, all crafted Blue. Same theory  

I agree. Why do crafted... why they have to be Gold ?

[Suppenkelle]

5 hours ago, OjK said:

And now I will blow away all discussion about DLC's not beeing Pay to Win.

@admin Can we kindly ask for a stat breakdown of how much percantage of TOP10 Light Ships Event was claimed by sailing and boarding with Le Requin?

Is it 100% or 95%?

And that's about 30.000 Doubloons available every week exclusively for owner's of Le Trollship DLC

The light ship event is purely 7th rate since a few weeks. No troll queens anymore in these stats. I like that!

[vazco]

2 hours ago, admin said:

20% of battles, 30 % of pvp deaths

Please check Alucard's statistics. He dies once every 50+ battles if I remember,. I bet he sails Herc in most of them. Herc is not a problem in group fights, however in solo fights it's extremely annoying against a decent player with good mods.

If you're sailing another 5th rate and you're bad, you will sink. If you're good, you won't sink a decent Herc - especially if it has mast mods. 1 vs 1 perfornamce and an ability to beat every craftable ship in shallow patrol zones (except for Requin) is an issue.

Right now it's much less of an issue than before at least. Having to spend 1.5h in battle against a herc though, being able only to defend in a larger ship, is not fun.

[Hawkwood]

@admin...DLC ships would not be such a huge issue, if there were more ships in market. Ship market is dead, more or less, nobody is crafting ships and selling them, for affordable prices, the few ships which can be found somewhere have prices which are beyond any reason. The crafted ones !

Recently in patrol zone, you couldn`t  buy any ship, at one particular free port,  because there were no more ships in market, except few 7th rates!

So, we don`t have crafted ships in market, and we don`t have "shop ships" in market. I don`t know HOW should people go out and do PVP, if there are not enough ships, which can be "wasted", to earn dabbaloons, which again are making the largest, and most expensive piece/kit of bigger ships.

There is an artificial, but significant and devastating misproportion of supply(crafting, NPCs in shop) and demand (losses through OW PVP, patrol zone)of ships of all classes in market, which could have very bad consequences on further mindset of any player who decides to play this game.

I personally see no reason to limit the amount of NPC ships in market, i would even suggest to make those ships "better", they could have better planking for example, planking at all, anyway, why are they "crew space" made? If those AI ships can be available in any port,"make" them better, and offer more of them, but don`t allow to trade them. They don`t need to be purple or golden, but i think there musst be more of them in market, to compensate the losses and absorb the devastating shortage of crafted ships.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

32 minutes ago, pit said:

then your aren't very good are you

personal insults on a forum.  The last resort of a keyboard warrior

[vazco]

1 hour ago, Capn Rocko said:

I have never been sunk by a hercules when sailing in another 5th rate so that leads me to think that players who are losing battles to hercules are just in-fact losing battles to better skilled captains OR are being ganked by multiple hercs. Take those captains out of the herc and into another meta 5th rate and I bet the outcome is the same. 

I checked in reality and some tactics and outfits of hercs are still OP, giving large advantage to herc over other 5th rates. You won't always win on Herc, but you have a better chance with some approaches.

[PG Monkey]

3 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Fear of loss is the real cancer in this game.  

But I love all 24 of my ships

[HachiRoku]

12 hours ago, admin said:

Accepting a duel as a dev is always lose lose.

only against me because I am pro gamer  

19 hours ago, pit said:

@admin I'd happily duel you to test this underrated herc, ill take a herc and you can take whatever else 5th rate of your choosing.

 

If i win you gotta make @HachiRoku a moderator

I aint ever sail a le req, but I'm sure someone who is decent can show you how it triumphs over all 6th rates

hehe, do you really think you could sink a trinco with a herc? I am very very curious now. I know it is a powerful ship but trinco level? Want to duel me on the weekend?

Edited December 4, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Guest]

8 hours ago, admin said:

It's not throwing off ANY stats 
Hercules and Le requin owners gave players 2200 kills (they sank 2200 times) they sank more than any other ship. In fact 3 ships contribute 50% of deaths (sinking on the war server). Basic cutter, brig (tutorial one) le requin and hercules is 55% of deaths on War server during last 30 days. 

I don't get you mindset point. It lacks any logic. I find your logic strange for a player with 10x pvp KD   (corrected from 5x KD). You should embrace the lack of fear of of sinking.

Going to die without fear using basic mods IS PVP mindset . Its the best mindset. You say they are throwaway ships? What about free 5th rates from NPCs? it takes like 4 mins to find one and capture. You can use 1 only herc per day but you can use 20+ captured 5th rates or more depending on your free time. Why dont people have the same mindset on captured 5th rates? 

You want people to experience MORE PAIN? You want people to worry more? I think some pvp players are just losing track of what they want (we do that too btw).

They ask for more incentives for pvp and then they complain about lack of fear mindset
Then they talk about overpowered mods - and then immediately complain about the fact that DLC ships only use basic mods

 

The point I was trying to make, is that the survivability of the Hercules or Le Requin cannot be understood by simply comparing how often they die to expensive crafted ships. Players don't give a damn if they get sunk in these ships, and often suicide them into the enemy. This must be taken into account. Simply saying that the Hercules gets sunk more than the Bellona, so the Hercules is balanced just doesn't make sense. 

Most of your response is not relevant to what I was talking about, and the assumptions you make about my mindset are mostly false. 

[HachiRoku]

20 hours ago, admin said:

• HP and mast HP
• Crew
• Thickness and mast thickness
• Sails
• Broadside weight

Sometimes turn rates and sailing profiles mean way more than stats. I was critical of the snows turn rate and 6th rate turn rates way before dlc. Do not hate me for saying this admin but in my opinion the way you had to remove 2 DLC 5th rates from joining port battles proves 2 things. The dlc design is flawed at its very core by ruining the logistics of ship building in the game and they were the 2 worst ships you could have picked to sell as dlc. Both of them very powerful ships for their size and there is not argument there. It is a fact. The requins crew, sailing profile and the hercs firepower compared to any other ship of their class considering they were added as 6th rates. I am however 100% certain this was not your intention considering by law you could have released the game 3 years ago and made alot of money. Doesn't make sense that you would keep on developing an almost free game unless it was your passion. I am 100% behind dlc and have bought all the dlc except the 2 ships. Until ships are not released as permits I will never buy something I believe is against the very core of the game. You cannot design naval action as a hardcore game and add convenience dlc for players that do not have the time to play enough to craft a ship. Either Naval action is hardcore or it is not. Both cannot work. In my opinion if you release a 1st rate as dlc I would think it would be best to ask for 10 euro for 1 permit only.  

[HachiRoku]

2 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

The point I was trying to make, is that the survivability of the Hercules or Le Requin cannot be understood by simply comparing how often they die to expensive crafted ships. Players don't give a damn if they get sunk in these ships, and often suicide them into the enemy. This must be taken into account. Simply saying that the Hercules gets sunk more than the Bellona, so the Hercules is balanced just doesn't make sense. 

Most of your response is not relevant to what I was talking about, and the assumptions you make about my mindset are mostly false. 

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable  

[HachiRoku]

22 hours ago, pit said:

I suggest all DLC ships be 3/5s and all crafted basic ships are at least 4/5 possibly 5/5!

Nerfing content is an unacceptable solution. DLC ships will work if handled correctly. 

[p i t]

5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Nerfing content is an unacceptable solution. DLC ships will work if handled correctly. 

I never suggested nerfing i suggested improved craftability or at simple level, buffing. 

Crafting is boring with little incentive and most players would prefer to just cap ai or buy dlc

Edited December 4, 2018 by pit

[Njord]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

I bet people would pay 100 bucks to make their life in an MMO effortless. Do devs do this? No they don't for good reason.

"given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of any game even at their own detriment. It is the job of developers to protect players from themselves"

And who pays for that job? Selling the base game alone will not be enough in the long term to keep the game alive, considering it is so niche.

What do you suggest? Remove the redeem ability so new players have to find the right resources and will most likely sail with garbage oak/oak ships, because the veterans buy up all the Teak and White oak? That is after they manage to set up shipyard and all production buildings.

Or rather make the DLC ships rubbish, so nobody wants to buy or sail them anymore? Then we can have the casuals use them and feed the advanced and veteran players free kills...

What are we going to do about alt accounts and admiralty connections DLC? Those are pay2win aswell, if we look at it like that. 

Should the devs just remove all DLC, refund them and then take the servers down one year later due to lack of renvenue?

[Njord]

14 minutes ago, pit said:

I never suggested nerfing

 

18 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I suggest all DLC ships be 3/5

Removing the possibility for a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship is de facto a nerf, because even tho it has a much lower chance than on ships crafted in capturable towns, as admin already explained, it is possible to redeem a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship with a lot of luck.

[p i t]

1 minute ago, Sovereign said:

Should the devs just remove all DLC

No this thread is not about their removal, 

Its about making dlc ships stay in the game and giving higher value to crafted ships

Its about someone who wants quick fun vs someone who puts in time and effort to gather resources and craft

2 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Removing the possibility for a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship is de facto a nerf

Yes he stated that before I knew it was possible you could redeem a 5/5 dlc ship, which gives my suggestion even more weight 

[p i t]

I don't understand why some are arguing against the ability to consistently craft a 4/5? (OR having the ability to craft a refit into her, Or whatever else you guys think of )It takes time and effort that 2 clicks does not, yet its hardly a striking advantage over a 3/5 dlc

More people would then want to craft ships, more craft ships +  dlc ships roaming around = more pvp