Better Ships for All!

[Njord]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Do devs do this? No they don't for good reason.

Well they did with DLC ships, didn't they? And for good reason. Some players wouldn't even play the game, if it wasn't for DLC ships. Not everyone can be bothered with the crafting and economy or has the time to deal with it to begin with. DLC ships are probably one of best things that happened to NA. They allow casuals to play the game even with limited time, they provide a lot of content as admin already mentioned, since people aren't afraid to lose those ships and they help fund the further development of NA on top of that.

[Njord]

14 minutes ago, pit said:

giving higher value to crafted ships

 

14 minutes ago, pit said:

which gives my suggestion even more weight 

Except for... not really. Crafted ships already have the advantage. They cost some resources but you can build them in unlimited quantities and every ship build has a 3.5x higher chance for bonus slots and trims than the DLC ships, which you can only redeem once a day. You get one chance per 24 hours, compared to unlimited chances with 3.5x modifier. I would argue it's more than good enough. The resource cost on crafted ships is the only thing somewhat balancing this out but everything other than the woods is dirt cheap anyways and can be produced in buildings.

On average you will have a 4/5+Trim crafted ship face a 3/5 DLC ship already. Just building a bunch of frigates in a capturable port will very likely give you at least one 4/5.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sovereign

[staun]

6 minutes ago, pit said:

I don't understand why some are arguing against the ability to consistently craft a 4/5? (OR having the ability to craft a refit into her, Or whatever else you guys think of )It takes time and effort that 2 clicks does not, yet its hardly a striking advantage over a 3/5 dlc

More people would then want to craft ships, more craft ships +  dlc ships roaming around = more pvp 

Quit simple. As Dlc ships not should be better than crafted ships neither should it be in general the other way around. Basicly it is to pas judgment on one playstyle and say this is the right one and therefor those that prefere the other one is wrong. 

Crafted is allready better:

- higher chance on extra slots.

- No limited on how many to craft a day

- No limit on the price if you want to sell it.

- Can craft it and help a friend by handing it over.

Crafted allready have a lot going for them. 

[HachiRoku]

28 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

 

Removing the possibility for a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship is de facto a nerf, because even tho it has a much lower chance than on ships crafted in capturable towns, as admin already explained, it is possible to redeem a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship with a lot of luck.

 48 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

I suggest all DLC ships be 3/5

How did you quote this? I did not say that.

[HachiRoku]

30 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Removing the possibility for a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship is de facto a nerf, because even tho it has a much lower chance than on ships crafted in capturable towns, as admin already explained, it is possible to redeem a 4/5 or 5/5 DLC ship with a lot of luck.

this i agree with

[p i t]

1 hour ago, Sovereign said:

 

Except for... not really. Crafted ships already have the advantage. They cost some resources but you can build them in unlimited quantities and every ship build has a 3.5x higher chance for bonus slots and trims than the DLC ships, which you can only redeem once a day. You get one chance per 24 hours, compared to unlimited chances with 3.5x modifier. I would argue it's more than good enough. The resource cost on crafted ships is the only thing somewhat balancing this out but everything other than the woods is dirt cheap anyways and can be produced in buildings.

On average you will have a 4/5+Trim crafted ship face a 3/5 DLC ship already. Just building a bunch of frigates in a capturable port will very likely give you at least one 4/5.

WOw dude the way you describe it I should be swimming in unlimited 4/5 and 5/5 ships and the market for them should be massive... only no 

and while im sitting in port pumping out dozens of ships and collecting mats the dlc player has already sunk others and is having fun.

 

1 hour ago, staun said:

Quit simple. As Dlc ships not should be better than crafted ships neither should it be in general the other way around. Basicly it is to pas judgment on one playstyle and say this is the right one and therefor those that prefere the other one is wrong. 

Crafted is allready better:

- higher chance on extra slots.

- No limited on how many to craft a day

- No limit on the price if you want to sell it.

- Can craft it and help a friend by handing it over.

Crafted allready have a lot going for them. 

 Your first statement goes against admin when he stated craft ships must be better in terms of upgrades...check the OP. Furthermore what bs claims as to why crafted ships are better, which none but "higher chance on extra slots" is the only possibility on any effect during a 1v1.. your off topic,

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by pit

[staun]

49 minutes ago, pit said:

 

Shoul I even justify this as a response?  Your first statement goes against admin when he stated craft ships must be better in terms of upgrades...check the OP. Furthermore what bs claims as to why crafted ships are better, which none but "higher chance on extra slots" is the only possibility on any effect during a 1v1.. your off topic

So because admin have said it, no more debate. Periode. Well no need to have any debate then I guess.  But it is better in terms of upgrades, there is a higher chance, so in the long run over numbers of ships, it is actually better on upgrades.  It is fine you think it should be so on every ship. I just allowe my self to have the opinion that there should not be an significant difference. Just a small one, so they have lived up to there promise.

I put the other points up because if you read lots of the post in here ppl focus on crafting and econ to. There is also advantages by crafted ships witch ppl just ignore.

Every ship have different stats, witch also can make it hard to decide if one ship is better than the other. It is fine you want to have crafted ships to have an advantage in battle. I just think a battle should be a battle no matter witch ship you bring. If the Dlc is op, they shoul in my opinion have stats so they fit the general class. Yes they can have some advantage in som areas and then some handicap in others. Just like crafted ships have. I just dont understand the demand for then to be sub to a crafted ship. It gives a better fight?

[Njord]

1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

How did you quote this? I did not say that.

My bad, must have quoted it from your comment, where you quoted pit... 

1 hour ago, pit said:

I should be swimming in unlimited 4/5 and 5/5 ships and the market for them should be massive

I am swimming in them... are you building ships in a capturable port? Sometimes there are 4/5 or even 5/5 ships being sold but most keep them or sail them - why else would you craft them to begin with?

1 hour ago, pit said:

and while im sitting in port pumping out dozens of ships and collecting mats the dlc player has already sunk others and is having fun

And why aren't you using the DLC instead then? For the dozen ships you built you most likely get at least one superior to the DLC ship. I see no problem.

[p i t]

 I think what admin said, as i posted for this thread, is the best promise a dev can give to the community, that's why many of us bought this game.

@staun your question was: Why should ppl buy a Dlc ship if it is worse then other ships"

if this is legitimately your concern about the company running out of money and people need to buy the DLC then I say this, a redeemable DLC ship does not matter if its a 3/5. the player will still use it, will still hunt traders, and sometimes kill 4/5 or 5/5 crafted ships because the truth is they are exceptionally good ships, unique, and cannot be crafted. Where we are right now is, it sure as shit is much better than the 3/5 surprise or cerberus i craft. 

This leads into @Sovereignargument

13 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

For the dozen ships you built you most likely get at least one superior to the DLC ship. I see no problem.

Then why waste everyone's time, we keep pumping out ships, until we get a 4/5 or 5/5 that finally decide to keep? Just make the game more efficient and have the base craft be a 4/5?? whats all this business with 3.5x more likely or 10x more likely? it doesn't matter. its time waste that could be towards pvp instead of crafting and breaking

 

17 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

And why aren't you using the DLC instead then?

Im not using because i think players shouldn't be forced into buying dlc, it can be there as an ease of access. Fine. but the game should be reared towards crafting ships not buying into dlcs to survive in shallow water

[Barbancourt]

52 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

And why aren't you using the DLC instead then? For the dozen ships you built you most likely get at least one superior to the DLC ship. I see no problem.

Do you seriously build a dozen ships every time you need just one?  🙄

 

[z4ys]

We cant deny that dlc ships generate pvp = good

In the one hand we cant deny that most dislike fighting against them but in the other hand actually like the convenience and above average power that they offer.

I can understand devs here. Looking at numbers and seeing that pvp activity increases. Especially when community always had cried that there is to less pvp activity.

So what do we actual want?

Do we want fights because we like to battle each other? Or do we actually want something else? 

[Palatinose]

9 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Do we want fights because we like to battle each other? Or do we actually want something else? 

That's a rhetorical one right? 

[Barbancourt]

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

We cant deny that dlc ships generate pvp = good

Only good for those with the DLC, which is not good for most of the rest.  They just need proper balancing.  I've suggested a Tutorial senario for learning to deal with Requin.  (which would require an upgraded AI that isn't so predictable and silly)

Speaking of which, I thought there were rumors of the Yacht getting some kind of buff that didn't seem to materialize?

 

[z4ys]

11 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

That's a rhetorical one right? 

Not really. Admin gave numbers of improved pvp activity so I don't get why we are still discussing that dlc ships are bad.

If we would play for the fight we would take any ship. Even crappy AI builds.

Because of that I think some aren't honest here. True intention is not the fight because of the fight it's something else that nobody really wants to name.

Edited December 4, 2018 by z4ys

[Sento de Benimaclet]

Mr. ADMIN, can you tell us if there will be more DLC SHIPS ? If yes, what rates would be talking about? Thanks.

[z4ys]

3 minutes ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

Mr. ADMIN, can you tell us if there will be more DLC SHIPS ? If yes, what rates would be talking about? Thanks.

Next dlc ship will be Pandora all ea owners get here for free. (Will be given as gift for owning the game before release) all other have to buy it like herc.

Edited December 4, 2018 by z4ys

[William Death]

I like @pit's idea, with one condition: (also, it seems several others in this thread are thinking along the same lines)

Crafted ships, by default, have a selectable refit OR a 4th slot. You pick one or the other when you're crafting it. RNG decides if you get another refit or another slot (although I really, really don't like RNG in crafting because it makes no sense from any historical perspective and just feels silly...but it seems like its gonna stick around this time so.....)


DLC redeemed ships are default 3/5 with the small RNG chance (like they currently have) to be 4/5 or 5/5 + bonus.

 

There. No nerfs to DLC, only buffs to regular crafted ships; so there can be no disgruntled players complaining that their purchase got nerfed.

 

 

Regarding whether Hercules is OP vs other frigates? Yeah. Yeah it is. Stats might not seem that way, but it beats the stuffing out of Surprise, Cerberus, or Renommee. I'd even say she gives Belle Poule and the other 12pd frigates a run for their money. She's got a short, low hull that is hard to land hull hits on and provides EZ hugging options; better handling characteristics; super fast with four bow chasers; masts that are slim and hard to hit; etc. I really don't think you find a serious opponent for Hercules (assuming roughly equal captain skill) until you get to the 18pd+ frigates like Frigate, Pirate Frigate, Trinco, Endy/Diana/Indy. 

This isn't to say Hercules can't be beaten by smaller ships, just that when you see a Hercules sunk by a small frigate or 6th rate, chances are the Herc was either captained by a noob or was some throw-away patrol zone build.

But don't mistake that for balance. I can sink a noob in a First Rate with a Connie, but does that mean Connie=First Rate? (yes, obviously, Live Oak is hurr durr tough )

[Barbancourt]

6 minutes ago, William Death said:

DLC redeemed ships are default 3/5 with the small RNG chance (like they currently have) to be 4/5 or 5/5 + bonus.

 

How about DLC ships being only instantly redeemable in a standard formula and woods, but you could instead choose to redeem the DLC as a crafting permit and build it as you like? 

[Sento de Benimaclet]

14 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Next dlc ship will be Pandora all ea owners get here for free. (Will be given as gift for owning the game before release) all other have to buy it like herc.

Many Thanks z4ys. º7

[LeBoiteux]

Can't wait for HMS Pandora 🙂 

[Ouwe Knar]

7 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Can't wait for HMS Pandora 🙂 

Cant wait either:

Bring it on.

[William Death]

15 minutes ago, Barbancourt said:

How about DLC ships being only instantly redeemable in a standard formula and woods, but you could instead choose to redeem the DLC as a crafting permit and build it as you like? 

Could be interesting....but I think the appeal for some who bought the DLC was an easy way to get a good ship without having to craft it with woods that might be hard for them to get if they don't have a lot of playtime.

I don't necessarily think the prevalence of DLC ships is bad thing....(after all, it does increase PvP)...I just think that the prevalence of DLC ships combined with them being OP makes them bad for the game.

[William Death]

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

Hugging is still an unresolved issue that Hercules users usually takes advantage of it.

The lack of risk when you ram another ship also contributes.

No matter if you ship has more hp, thickness... The hercules will outdps you because she is giving full broadsides and you dont.

Probably the only way to face them is through boarding, which is a pitty.

To be fair, other ships can use hugging tactics too. 

Also don't forget there are things you, as a skipper, can do to counter hugging tactics. And if/when you land a broadside into Hercules, it hurts.

 

But, I do agree with you, Hercules is exceptionally good at hugging tactics because of the hull shape and size and the masts being so hard to hit.

[Barbancourt]

4 minutes ago, William Death said:

Could be interesting....but I think the appeal for some who bought the DLC was an easy way to get a good ship without having to craft it with woods that might be hard for them to get if they don't have a lot of playtime.

Isn't that a significant part of what makes them consistently OP?  Instant (just add water) teak/WO Hercules rolling around against normal players in fir/sab Niagara/Prince or a non-WO Cerberus/Surprise. 

 

[William Death]

3 minutes ago, Barbancourt said:

Isn't that a significant part of what makes them consistently OP?  Instant (just add water) teak/WO Hercules rolling around against normal players in fir/sab Niagara/Prince or a non-WO Cerberus/Surprise. 

 

Its definitely a part of it.

But I think the biggest part of them being OP is that they are just plain better. Looking at the 5th & 6th rate class as a whole, and not any particular stat, Hercules has THE BEST combination of speed, agility, thickness, hull shape, massive cannon loadout, mast toughness (I say this one carefully, as the masts aren't thick or sturdy, just hard to hit because they're so tiny),...the list goes on.

To put it in comparison, 1v1 given similar skill a teak/wo Hercules is always going to be better than a teak/wo Surprise, I think. 

You can even stretch that to this: an average player in a teak/wo Niagara vs an average player in a fir/sab Hercules....Hercules still has a strong chance.

 

I think, if the ship was more balanced then having instant teak/wo or lo/wo rolling around would be less of an issue.