Better Ships for All!

[AeRoTR]

I just did everything I can, I put side by side comparison of DLC ships, sailing profiles, firepowers, I got too much blame from DLC lovers. But I could not change mind of @admin about DLC ships.

Yes DLC ship is fantastic for devs and the players who already owns them. But it is a gamebreaker for new customers if they do not purchase the dlc, who grinded hard, for his new 5th rate just to lose it to Le Req just sailing from KPR to PM ! When this happens 2-3 times, the guys uninstalls the game, leaves a negative comment on Steam and does not look back.

Hercules is overpowered, yes, has not got a magic win button,but it needs to fight to win. I tell you raiders coming to safezone in HERC, they will be mostly dead. 1 vs 1 it can win, but safezone they will die by revenge fleet. But Le Requin, it will keep farming noobs, for hours. Let's ask famous Licci if he can farm with a hercules in safe waters for 2 hours, killing all the noobs, NO he can not. But most of the time he does this with Le Requin, that ship is cancer to push newbies out of the game. It has magic win button, boarding ! and just attack. I did many fights against licci, one time I got boarded with a prepared ship, he just selected attack against my defence, every turn I lost 20 crew and 4-5 turns my ship was captured. This is a magic win button. This is pay to win. I assure you I can sink lots of le reqs, in my snow or prince, but they will run away, they will not stay when they see I am serious, this is pay to escape = pay to win. I have sunk many in patrol zone, if they wanna fight, but sometimes they will kite for 25-30 minutes. Most of pvp players in my nation will never fight against Le Req, will let them farm noobs, it is a waste of time. Only newish players will join battle with square riggers (LOL), le req needs to make big tactical mistake to lose, otherwise he will farm 1-2 noobs and exit battle when time comes. You can never do this with Herc or any other ship. Palatinose, Reverse they all used to come and visit us, being best players sometimes they will lose. I can not imagine them specialising on red sail, 3-4 of them can come and lock the fking KPR, thx God they prefer good old brawling with proper ships.

DLC ship is luxury, so you can click a button every 24 hours, with whatever wood you need (not easy to craft with teak/wo, you need to grind and carry those woods), and here you have your ship. This is a big DLC sell point, so I say again I will buy every DLC which is sisters/variants of Niagra/Prince/Snow/Heavy Rattle and Suprise / Diana / Essex / Endy / Trinco, with slightly different paint, a white line or whatever, with same stats, I will buy them. I know this gonna totally kill the crafting.

But I can not accept current DLC ship. Le Req needs to be 5th rate with same crew numbers, it will not solve everthing but at least boarding bonuses will be more reasonable. As you can see from comparsion below, more firepower with cannons or carroos, fastest ship, too many crew, auto-escape angle, tiny sail profile, bugged sails which your chains just fly through with no damage, tiny masts, unrealistic super fast acceleration (forward or reverse), bowspirit damage does not effect it, but it rigging shocks others by breaking their bow spirits (means you get boaded and sunk), 32pd carros (only on niagra) can chain you to rigging shock ( you are boarded and sunk), a boarding ship which accelerates upwind while enemy slows down (can push you with more force if you make mistake leaving your downwind advantage, how can you brawl him only going downwind?), tiny hull profile to shoot if you stay away, tiny sail profile when she is running away ( just compare with Prince which has like 5 times more sail area when running away or closing in enemy  which means he will tear our sails to rigging shock if you wanna catch him, but if you broadside your chain on him, close distance, you will miss many chain, you have to single chain and snipe him. A le req can espace another le req (only equivalent ship to him) cause it will use chain from stern, but other can not use chain. Yes you can damage his crew with grape shot, but noobs are already getting boarded after 1 or 2 broadside.

Are those enough for you to understand this Le Req is OP and very special ship but breaks the balance. May be my ancestors sailed with that ship in mediteranian (Turkish). So honestly I can role play in my Le Req, switch to pirate nation, sail with Licci  give other Capitol noobs a very hard time, buying that ship. But I can not, against my personality.

So damage is done (I know you are not seeing as I see the way it is), please do not hurt us with feature dlc . (btw it was super funny just to balance Le Req, you have killed all crew space / hammocks etc., they were all okay, nobody complained about them)

Edited December 4, 2018 by AeRoTR
grammer

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

There should still be a fear of loss with these ships maybe some benefit to keeping one as long as possible without sinking to make it interesting.

That would fix positive pvp statistics associated with dlc ships!

😶

[Vernon Merrill]

Fear of loss is the real cancer in this game.  

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

yes but those OP ships shouldn't also be the ships that are only acquirable through real world money. Premium ships should be neat, niche, and uncommon. There should still be a fear of loss with these ships maybe some benefit to keeping one as long as possible without sinking to make it interesting.

There is a fear of loss.  Once I put copper, navy hull and French rig on it (they're generally 3/5's), it's expensive.  Then some better player comes along in a kitted out Essex and cleans my clock.  It's not as OP as people are saying. Skill still matters.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

There is a fear of loss.  Once I put copper, navy hull and French rig on it (they're generally 3/5's), it's expensive.  Then some better player comes along in a kitted out Essex and cleans my clock.  It's not as OP as people are saying. Skill still matters.

You created that fear by doing what most people don't do and put the most expensive mods on what is generally hailed as a throwaway ship. That's  the minority of captains who do that.

Here's my idea for the req/herc. You knowledge is reset to 1 slot when you're sunk, which you have to grind back up to use full efficiently. BUT the knowledge requirements are halved and all it takes is maybe 2-3 pvp kills to get back up to 5.

Just a simple start, I'm sure there are better ways to do it.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[staun]

16 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

yes but those OP ships shouldn't also be the ships that are only acquirable through real world money. Premium ships should be neat, niche, and uncommon. There should still be a fear of loss with these ships maybe some benefit to keeping one as long as possible without sinking to make it interesting.

Fear of loss. Well then I only should sail ships from 4 rate and up. And only because I don’t want to grind doublons. But even them I dont fear losing, Trust me it is a long time since I feared loose a ship. So guess I should stop playing PvP.

But I agree with you, any Dlc ship should be crafteble, if thats your statement.

Edited December 4, 2018 by staun

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, staun said:

Fear of loss. Well then I only should sail ships from 4 rate and up. And only because I don’t want to grind doublons. But even them I dont fear losing, Trust me it is a long time since I feared loose a ship. So guess I should stop playing PvP.

Fear of loss does not mean fear of a fight.  It's the investment that makes it exciting.  I don't believe Slim when he says players don't invest in their DLC ships.  I've killed plenty of Hercs and looted good mods from them. 

[Njord]

1 hour ago, admin said:

The complaints are understandable. We just think that the benefits outweigh the negatives - mainly with the amount of PVP content generated by the ships. Which will probably disappear with additional restrictions. These ships were already removed from port battles by player requests and now we have less port battles (of course for multiple reasons).

We believe everything that is changed or added should increase pvp count. 

This is pretty much what I am thinking. The 1 redeem per day seems very fair, especially with lower chances for bonus trims and slots and the ship performance should rather be a little too good than too bad. The more people purchase the ships, the more PvP we will get and the more the development will be funded. The 8-10 bucks per ship is a fair price in my opinion, they are not absolutely broken or unsinkable but simply very capable ships ( Herc at least, the Requin is certainly not overperforming anymore ). As long as it remains only one 6th and one small 5th rate, I see no problem but I suggest treading very carefully with future DLC ship additions.

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Sovereign said:

This is pretty much what I am thinking. The 1 redeem per day seems very fair

As apposed to what, twice a day? You realize if there was 3 more ships of the same type that would be 5 free ships a day right?

That's why current dlc ship model is unsustainable.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Njord]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

That's why current dlc ship model is unsustainable.

Yes, this is why I said:

4 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

but I suggest treading very carefully with future DLC ship additions.

 

I agree that there should not be many more redeemable DLC ships ( maximum 1 - 2 more ). I think the two we have are more than enough for that matter. I'd much rather see DLC ships like Christian VII and Santa Cecilia not be redeemable as ship but grant permits instead and keep the crafted ships uncapturable.

[Percival Merewether]

2 minutes ago, Sovereign said:

Yes, this is why I said:

 

I agree that there should not be many more redeemable DLC ships ( maximum 1 - 2 more ). I think the two we have are more than enough for that matter. I'd much rather see DLC ships like Christian VII and Santa Cecilia not be redeemable as ship but grant permits instead and keep the crafted ships uncapturable.

Would be cool if they were capturable but that it would be impossible to gain XP on them without the DLC.

Then the DLC ships can still be captured, but can't be sailed effectively without buying the DLC (Stuck with 0 knowledge on them).

[Njord]

41 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

There will always be a "best" ship.

Exactly this. And I'd much rather it be the DLC ships that are easily available for everyone for a small fee that helps fund the development. New players can get this easily and start PvP ( or PvE ) in some very capable ships, what's wrong with that?

I think many underestimate the value of DLC ships for new players trying to get into PvP. 1-2 "free" ships per day can make the difference between a noob constantly sinking but getting better ( while providing content for others aswell ) and a noob quitting out of frustration, because he has to start in basic cutter again ( maybe exaggerated on the cutter part but you get the idea ).

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sovereign

[p i t]

 

It kinda seems like its a bit off topic now, after sleeping a nice 8 hours and fresh eyes this is what i see:

I proposed for the change of crafted ships, not DLC ships (I dont believe they should be taken away, they do provide more pvp and action, GREAT! but as you can tell some in our community do want to get rid of them) I was seeing if we could make crafted ships have an advantage in terms of open upgrade slot (not such a big deal i thought it be better for all as even DLC buyers could craft better ships)

 

Admin responds saying the herc is balanced, a large part of the community disagrees, oddly enough admin only stated the herc and not the le requin. He said that in the hercs class there is at least a better ship in one aspect. Then states the following:

8 hours ago, admin said:

Classes are irrelevant

 

This OP has nothing to do with why we sell DLC or the effects of DLC, DLC is here and staying. Again i'm just asking for a tuneup of crafted ships. At least with the possibility to choose a crafted refit of the ship would be a neat idea as well (i.e. Boston refit)

5 hours ago, admin said:

he author of the post claimed that there are no ships that are better than DLC ships. And claimed he can kill any 5th rate in a herc. So thats really THE point of the conversation. There are better ships than DLC ships and in addition to that DLC ships bring lots of PVP

This is a bit contorted, of course there will be better ships, there is no "one ship beats all" and would be silly to say so, However, these DLC ships do out perform a vast majority of their class ships. Again.. i'm not asking for the change in ship stats or a whole rehaul of ship performance, just a change to crafted ships (in the process of crafting them) which gives merit to crafted ships.

I'm not sure why people are asking the devs to change how DLC ships operate, I am not.

Soft Stats adds a facet that i think should be looked at, anyone who took a statistic class in university, can attest that hard stats is not final result

9 hours ago, admin said:

We only will consider duels to the death (which means full account deletion for the loser) 

Now i know the real reason server pop is so low....

they lost and got sent to the Gulags

PS I'll take that duel @admin 

but not sure we need an even lower pop count

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by pit

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Sovereign said:

Exactly this. And I'd much rather it be the DLC ships that are easily available for everyone for a small fee that helps fund the development. New players can get this easily and start PvP ( or PvE ) in some very capable ships, what's wrong with that?

It's Pay2win. You're asking new players to buy these ships to be competitive.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

I seldom win where's my Pay2Win ? 

C'moooon... let's get real.

 

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I seldom win where's my Pay2Win ? 

C'moooon... let's get real.

 

shallows? (rip)

[staun]

2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Fear of loss does not mean fear of a fight.  It's the investment that makes it exciting.  I don't believe Slim when he says players don't invest in their DLC ships.  I've killed plenty of Hercs and looted good mods from them. 

I know. But right now I dont spend anything on upgrades. Neither a Dlc ore a normaly ship when I go out alone.  So bu his definition, I shouldn’t be allowed to do PvP. If I have looted an upgrade I use it. Thats all I do. Did earlier, but that didn’t cause any fear on that account. Yes I don’t Trow a ship away just to loose it. But that has nothing to do with Dlc ships.

To get ship knowledge on my indiaman I took it to the swedish every day to pick a fight. Way more fun than grind AI.

The only thing we get with fear is that ppl stay in habor and reinforcment zone. Luckely nobody ever have complained about that.

[p i t]

 

5 minutes ago, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

I seldom win where's my Pay2Win ? 

C'moooon... let's get real.

 

@Hethwill the Red Duke I know you like practicing your English, but try not to banter in this thread, I'm genuinely interested in seeing if we can get a bonus from crafting ships. 

[Njord]

4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's Pay2win. You're asking new players to buy these ships to be competitive.

Well any exclusive ship you buy additionally for the game, giving you something unique over owners of the base game can be considered pay2win, unless you make them completely garbage, at which point nobody would buy it. Having a free ship per day ( even tho the crafting cost would be very low ) could also be considered pay2win. But the DLC ships aren't as broken as people claim they are... So whats your point exactly? 

I am not asking new players to buy these ships to be competitive, I strongly suggest they do so, because it is their best chance to improve in PvP. Not because of the ships performances but mainly due to the ability to redeem it once a day. If someone has 40 bucks to spend on a game, I am willing to bet he can spare another 8 to make his life in PvP with ship loss easier.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Sovereign

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

shallows? (rip)

Let's settle something here before we proceed.

Multi Player Game.

That means that it is expected to sail with and against multiple players.

Shallows is no different.

Going solo, in a War server where contact with enemy player is "imminent" ( can happen at any time ), is a brave choice but not the STANDARD for a multiplayer game.

That being a said, a squadron of 6th rates can successfully engage a squadron of Hercules and come out victorious.

If you are caught solo, tough luck. Fight your way out or go down fighting and whining ( like i do when the dastards push me away from boarding - gamey dastards....grrrrr ).

[Hethwill]

Just now, pit said:

 

@Hethwill the Red Duke I know you like practicing your English, but try not to banter in this thread, I'm genuinely interested in seeing if we can get a bonus from crafting ships. 

We thought we do already ?

( you have the points, all of them, for suggesting DLC to be Blue. +1 from me. the rest ? not so much )

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Let's settle something here before we proceed.

Multi Player Game.

That means that it is expected to sail with and against multiple players.

Shallows is no different.

Going solo, in a War server where contact with enemy player is "imminent" ( can happen at any time ), is a brave choice but not the STANDARD for a multiplayer game.

That being a said, a squadron of 6th rates can successfully engage a squadron of Hercules and come out victorious.

If you are caught solo, tough luck. Fight your way out or go down fighting and whining ( like i do when the dastards push me away from boarding - gamey dastards....grrrrr ).

That's pay to win by a margin of 2:1 in a technical and practical sense.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Sovereign said:

Well anything you buy additionally for the game, giving you something unique over owners of the base game can be considered pay2win, unless you make them completely garbage, at which point nobody would buy it. Having a free ship per day ( even tho the crafting cost would be very low ) could also be considered pay2win. But the DLC ships aren't as broken as people claim they are... So whats your point exactly? 

I am not asking new players to buy these ships to be competitive, I strongly suggest they do so, because it is their best chance to improve in PvP. Not because of the ships performances but mainly due to the ability to redeem it once a day. If someone has 40 bucks to spend on a game, I am willing to bet he can spare another 8 to make his life in PvP with ship loss easier.

I bet people would pay 100 bucks to make their life in an MMO effortless. Do devs do this? No they don't for good reason.

"given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of any game even at their own detriment. It is the job of developers to protect players from themselves"

[Hethwill]

Just now, Slim McSauce said:

I bet people would pay 100 bucks to make their life in an MMO effortless.

Way way WAY more than that. And then they stop playing because "it got boring". ( true story )

[Slim McSauce]

Just now, Hethwill the Red Duke said:

Way way WAY more than that. And then they stop playing because "it got boring". ( true story )

and when you take hours of in-game investment and turn it into a 1 time pay deal it makes it very easy to do that.

which is why catering to people who want the free ride from DLC won't work, the same people who want to jump right into the game are the same people who will jump right out at a whim, or when the system no longer benefits them.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Slim McSauce