Patch 27 - New Economy feedback.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Ship roster in port is nice for a better overview, color class, and best: the total number of slots you have in use. This wasn't visible before and you had to count all your ships manually to know if you still could build ships...

What's a bit inconvenient is having to click on each entry of the roster + symbol for hold on ship's card, to open the fleet ship's cargo space. Together with interaction to warehouse AND port shop that means a lot of window management to deal with, shifting things to and fro... Especially when you are managing two fleet ships at the moment.

[Hawkwood]

5 minutes ago, TheHaney said:

Now I'm curious how the amount of doubloons is calculated for players. Like, are the dropped doubloons a percentage of the player's total wealth?

I would like to know this too.. We sank a Hercules and there were 306 doubloons in cargo hold..No clue how the calculation works

 

[TheHaney]

1 minute ago, Hawkwood said:

I would like to know this too.. We sank a Hercules and there were 306 doubloons in cargo hold..No clue how the calculation works

What would be really interesting is if that player's doubloon count went down by 306 even though they weren't carrying any  

[Angus MacDuff]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

@Hethwill the Red Duke is right

There is not a single historical account of a pirate or a raider or a privateer loading diamonds or gold coins or gold dust into his hold when going out to the raid.   Typically they were going out empty so they can rob someone take the hold and come back.  So you are absolutely correct. No spoils on way out, lots of potential spoils on way back. 

This the best way to get best pvp rewards is to hunt people on their way back. If you attack someone on the way to raid you only will and should expect to get provisions repairs and maybe some pay.. maybe 1 doubloon per crew max. Maybe slightly more. The rest depends on WHO you attack and when.

This is not good.  Everybody will just dump their hold before getting tagged.  That's what traders do now.  Nobody wants an attacker to profit from a gank.  The good thing about the PVP reward system in the past was that the defeated player had no control over it.  Human nature will abuse this system.

[TheHaney]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

This is not good.  Everybody will just dump their hold before getting tagged.  That's what traders do now.  Nobody wants an attacker to profit from a gank.  The good thing about the PVP reward system in the past was that the defeated player had no control over it.  Human nature will abuse this system. 

The admin is evading and redirecting. The point is that, yes, you would in theory get whatever they have on them (if they don't dump) BUT there's some internal value that generates as cargo regardless, it seems.

[admin]

5 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

This is not good.  Everybody will just dump their hold before getting tagged.  That's what traders do now.  Nobody wants an attacker to profit from a gank.  The good thing about the PVP reward system in the past was that the defeated player had no control over it.  Human nature will abuse this system.

like in RL? Maybe gold destruction should be removed from game then.. good point. On the other hand.. think about the cargo dropper. he gets satisfaction from throwing that chest into the deep blue sea. Why should we only think about you (attacker?) Lets think about the runner for once.

[Bluetooth]

27 minutes ago, admin said:

There is not a single historical account of a pirate or a raider or a privateer loading diamonds or gold coins or gold dust into his hold when going out to the raid.   Typically they were going out empty so they can rob someone take the hold and come back.  So you are absolutely correct. No spoils on way out, lots of potential spoils on way back

So no is the answer then.

Thanks.

[Angus MacDuff]

8 minutes ago, admin said:

like in RL? Maybe gold destruction should be removed from game then.. good point. On the other hand.. think about the cargo dropper. he gets satisfaction from throwing that chest into the deep blue sea. Why should we only think about you (attacker?) Lets think about the runner for once.

Sometimes i'm the runner.  My issue that keeps coming up is the reward system for PVP.  I haven't been home yet so I can only go with what I've read so far.  It seems that PVP action is no longer the most rewarding aspect of the game.  In my view, that would be a shame as this should be a "PVP first" game.  Maybe i'm wrong and I will certainly test it in order to give educated feedback.  It's all speculation at the moment.

[Suppenkelle]

Ships are a LOT more expensive now and, frankly,  I don't know whether this is helping the game forward. I compared building prices for Mercury, Surprise, and Indefatigable built in fir/fir to avoid bias due to prices for teak or white oak. Before update the price was a mixture of Gold for collecting the ressources and Combat marks, reflecting the necessary labour hours. Now the price is a mixture of Reals and Dubloons. Gold was converted 25:1 to reals. PvP marks were converted 1:1 to dubloons. Based on the values of PvP marks (100k Gold) and Combatmarks (3k Gold) in Gustavia prior to the update I have calculated the costs for the vessels in Gold. The new prices are roughly 500 times higher than before! You will argue that the rate of conversion from Dubloons into gold via PvP marks is not viable. I will argue that this is not really relevant as the main issue is the conversion from Dubloons into labour hours which is 1:1.2. Prior to the update the conversion from combat marks (!) to labour hours was 1:33.

Funny side effect: ships built from fir/fir or fir/oak are more expensive than ships from T/LO/WO as the amount of LH needed to collect fir and oak  is prohibitively high. You can't mean that.

[Aldeveron]

Kudos to the devs on the aesthetics of the new port UI.  I spend most of my time on the PVE server, so I'm glad to see additional ships being sailed by enemy NPCs. I welcome these two changes, at least.

Unfortunately, some of the the new economy changes have seriously degraded the game's fun-factor for me. The game was already a bit stingy in its remunerative rewards, IMO (disappointing loot from ships and the all-too-scarce wrecks, and a scarcity of AI fleets to engage, for extended periods, every day, etc). 

Personally, I greatly prefer OW fleet-hunting to missions, as do many others on PVE - so please reward us with doubloons for winning those battles. The prospect of going back to chasing traders, in the hope of finding doubloons on board, doesn't excite me at all. And why is there (apparently) no way to convert reals to doubloons and vice-versa?

And why start charging us to teleport? Why degrade our freedoms? If this is really necessary (and I can't imagine why), please charge us a few reals; not doubloons. personally, I teleport a LOT, and for various reasons. The increased cost of acquiring premium-build 1st rates is excessive, too, IMO. Before this update, we could just about cope with the loss of our prized purple or gold Santisima or L'Ocean. Now such an expensive loss will be disheartening enough to cause players to throw in their hand - unless it is mitigated by the rumoured insurance feature which I have yet to experience.

Personally, I enjoyed the old ship-crafting system; the need to craft individual ship components reflected real life, and resulted in greater satisfaction, upon the completion of a build. So I was sorry to see all that good work scrapped. I'm just glad there have been no changes to the game's battle mechanics, because while not yet perfect, that aspect of the game is its chief remaining merit, IMO.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Aldeveron

[Hawkwood]

2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Economy rebalance. Makes ships insanely expensive.

Ships are insured now..No idea how to claim? insurance if you get killed, and how much you get, or what you get at all.

[Hawkwood]

6 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

Ships are a LOT more expensive now and, frankly,  I don't know whether this is helping the game forward. I compared building prices for Mercury, Surprise, and Indefatigable built in fir/fir to avoid bias due to prices for teak or white oak. Before update the price was a mixture of Gold for collecting the ressources and Combat marks, reflecting the necessary labour hours. Now the price is a mixture of Reals and Dubloons. Gold was converted 25:1 to reals. PvP marks were converted 1:1 to dubloons. Based on the values of PvP marks (100k Gold) and Combatmarks (3k Gold) in Gustavia prior to the update I have calculated the costs for the vessels in Gold. The new prices are roughly 500 times higher than before! You will argue that the rate of conversion from Dubloons into gold via PvP marks is not viable. I will argue that this is not really relevant as the main issue is the conversion from Dubloons into labour hours which is 1:1.2. Prior to the update the conversion from combat marks (!) to labour hours was 1:33.

Funny side effect: ships built from fir/fir or fir/oak are more expensive than ships from T/LO/WO as the amount of LH needed to collect fir and oak  is prohibitively high. You can't mean that.

You must be German right?

Like you are comparing Deutsch Marks with Euros..Makes no sense to me what are you trying to say.....

[Capn Rocko]

It sounds like the devs just want us to hunt traders. When 2 hunters meet each other and fight, there will be little reward unless the losing hunter plundered a trader  before the battle or they are dumb and randomly carrying a lot of money

[Hawkwood]

6 minutes ago, Capn Rocko said:

It sounds like the devs just want us to hunt traders. When 2 hunters meet each other and fight, there will be little reward unless the losing hunter plundered a trader  before the battle or they are dumb and randomly carrying a lot of money

300-400 Doubloons is not enough?

[Hethwill]

feels like pre-marks era.

empty ship is empty ship.

[Capn Rocko]

5 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

300-400 Doubloons is not enough?

Explain

[Ameruccio Vespigo]

11 minutes ago, Aldeveron said:

Congrats to the Devs on the aesthetics of the new port UI (though I would really like to see less of that weird orangey-brown everywhere). 

I play mostly on the PVE server. Unfortunately, the economy changes, as they stand, have seriously dagraded the fun-factor for me. And I'm not alone in that view; there has been an absolute deluge of complaints on the chat, since the new update. The game was already a bit stingy in its remunerative rewards, in my opinion (disappointing loot from ships, disappointing contents of wrecks, and too few of them; and an odd lack of AI fleets  to attack at certain times of day). So it's no surprise that a lot of us are aghast that the game is now even less rewarding. I buy a game to have fun; not to work increasingly hard for decreasing rewards. I never did like missions; I always preferred OW fleet-hunting, as do many others on PVE... so why not reward us with dubloons for winning those battles? And if we really must now pay to teleport, please charge is (a few) reals; not dubloons. And the increased cost of acquiring 1st rates is now excessive, IMO. Before this update, we could just about cope with the loss of our prized purple or gold Santi or L'Ocean. Now such a loss will be pretty much intolerable. (Too much like real life, in fact!) 

I'm just glad there have been no changes to the battle mechanics, because, while not perfect, that aspect of the game is its key merit, IMO.

Fully agree. I may also add that I alternate period of trading and crafting to combat, as I mostly play also during work. Besides the difficulty in orienting myself in a market with many goods at completely different prices, with the absurd teleport toll introduced I am basically FORCED to combat to teleport myself where profitable goods drops, or can be farmed, or spend 95% of my time sailing with a Trader Link on routes I already made 100s times, which was fan only for the first 5 minutes of my first game. 

If a teleport toll shall stay is really necessary make it in Reals or introduce Doubloons rewards mechanism also for trading (there  was always a trading marks field in the captain chest  but never a trading reward) or the trade is over in my opinion.

 
Last but not least: I had over 32 Millions in gold this morning, now I have 1.6M Reals (25=1 ratio right?) , but the cost of the ships (both from Admiralty and Players) was converted 1=1 as far far as I see . In terms of purchase power of ships I am indeed 25 times poorer than few hours ago.
I think devs really hate traders.

[Psycho3630]

17 minutes ago, Sir John said:

I'm happy with the UI... very upset about PvP mark conversions and PvP vs PvE.

The money I had stored in PvP marks has (for all intents and purposes) vanished, and I find I can make barely anything from PvP.

 

Seems like my only choice now is to PvE, and I won't do that.

I'll PvP 'till the reals run out, I suppose.  Shame that I can't sustain myself on PvP anymore

 

(I understand that doubloons are stored in the hold.  Why?? Now, even if I fight a 20 man fleet and sink every one but the last and then die myself, I'll make next to nothing.  Unless I'm getting this wrong, PvE is the way to go now.)

 

Edit:  The profit from that fight will buy my teleport to Charleston.  😐

Myself and my clan have already decided that we won't be sailing 2nd or 1st rates in the OW really. It is far too expensive to replace them at the current rate. Far too expensive. The devs kept saying their goal was to get us all out of ports and sailing, however they are making it so expensive for ships that the only option is to only sail small/DLC ships or only sail your larger classes in safe waters and hope a good fleet goes by.

 

In your hypothetical, I agree. If you spend time sinking a lot of people, there are usually even waiting outside to kill you. So now you do not get rewarded for doing well in a battle because they will just finish you off after you're warn down and they're fresh and ready to go. 

Furthermore, they have made Reals absolutely useless. No one wants Reals or desires them, making them useless. Instead we have to all hunt for Doubloons to do anything, what may be days of work for one ship, and only for needing to sail it to dangerous waters with a very likely chance of losing the ship. Talk about a lack of motivation to do so. 

 

I'll end with this. If the intent of the Devs was to make shipbuilding easier to get people out of ports and fighting, they failed. They have given us every incentive to leave the good ships in port.  

[Greysteak]

Seems like the idea is to kill crafting and trading here.  That's certainly not what I was hoping for.  Thousands of doubloons to craft anything higher than 5th rates, really?  Can't sell them in the shop for doubloons, can't make anywhere near that much without doing lots of PvP.  The doubloon reward for the patrol zones is pathetic now.

These economy changes are a HUGE disappointment.  This is especially true considering how the ship DLC's had already seriously damaged it.  I can see absolutely no reason or desire to craft or trade under these circumstances.

I immediately regretted upgrading my shipyard to level 3.  Any chance of returning that to level 1 and getting my doubloons back?

[Barbancourt]

10 minutes ago, Psycho3630 said:

Myself and my clan have already decided that we won't be sailing 2nd or 1st rates in the OW really. It is far too expensive to replace them at the current rate.

Well, those only belong in port battles anyway, and presumably you have to calculate whether the port is worth risking them. 

[TheHaney]

From the perspective of a player that does NOT have significant investment in buildings, outposts and ships, and is mainly trying to earn cash to purchase them...

This is rough. It takes longer to source missions, there's nothing in OW to kill around friendly ports, and prices for everything have skyrocketed. Much of that is contractors not having a concept of the economic re-balance, but I expect it to be a good while before things get ironed out enough for me to, as an example, buy longs for a frigate without spending more than the frigate is worth.

[Lord_Drax]

6 hours ago, admin said:

The date does not matter because we thought its going to be 20-30 days and took 3-4 months (check valve time laws that apply to all game development even in best companies)

PVP marks and combat marks were abandoned as a concept.
and more wipes are coming before release. complete wipes will take EVERYTHING away (with the exception of XP and Crafting XP). You can expect 2 wipes before the release. One on release and one some time before it (20-30 days before it).

but i understand your frustration completely

So if your timetable of release is correct, we can expect full wipe in a few days? (When u stated release in end of November / beginning of December)

[vazco]

This patch seems less than half-baked in terms of economy. There are multiple serious issues which make it unplayable. I understand that early access is about testing, but this patch stretches it over the boundary for me. I'll be back once some very basic issues are fixed.

Examples:

• teleporting between outpost is way too expensive, as 10 doublons is a lot. You often teleport 20-30x per day to find 2-3 fights. That's 200-300 doublons spent to get on average 400 doublons - if you play fair
• you can exploit system extremely easily. You take people to fight AI, they sink and you loot doublons they drop
• since you get doublons by looting instead of dealing damage, you have to handle fair splitting of doublons between participants, which is tiresome
• fighting an overwhelming enemy doesn't give you any rewards - you can't loot in such situations, or you'll sink
• my favourite - once doublons are tied to your warehouse, you can teleport to a port where you don't have doublons and can't teleport back
• all types of ships drop same rewards, eg Wappen, Inger, Frigate - all drop 500 doublons

Those are issues I caught after just 30 minutes. There are probably much serious ones as well.


@admin

Edited November 1, 2018 by vazco

[JDAM]

This was not what I was expecting.  I may have to weigh my life vs desire to continue grinding this game.  I do enjoy it, but after this update I feel a lot of what I got out of the game has been tampered with.  In major ways that are unsettling to say the least.  Transport fees, the conversion rate, the unbalanced prices in game which have a major impact on the money I've earned in game over time and significantly reduced buying power that is beyond limiting to say the least.  I sit here not really sure what goals I have in game or what I'd like to accomplish.  I don't get why the change is so extreme and drastic, it should of been more in line with what he had, but made better.  Not completely changed to be almost unusable.  Again I'm not even sure what I'd like to do in game right now because the changes are so much.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Hemp Amore

[Psycho3630]

Let us not forget there is zero motive to take ports now. You need doubloons to build ships, you get doubloons most easily from enemy AI ships, which only spawn from enemy ports. You want enemy ports near your capital for easy retrieval.