Le Req is changing the game!

[Dibbler (Retired)]

5 minutes ago, Malachi said:

1815, Jan 28 - Sir, I have the pleasure to acquaint you, that with the squadron under my orders, being in quest of the American ships of war, which escaped during the late gales from the Ports of Massachusetts, I had the good fortune, yesterday, at sunset, to capture the celebrated privateer, Prince de Neufchatel, hermaphrodite - rigged, pierced for 22 guns, and having 18 mounted, six of which are long nine, and twelve pounders, and the rest twelve pounder carronades;

oooh 9lb's and 12lbs.

[Malachi]

2 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

oooh 9lb's and 12lbs.

jajaja...but to mount those 9s and 12s, they had to leave 4 ports unarmed and mount 12-pounder carronades. Which are roughly the weight equivalent of 4-pounder longs. 

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

There have been many ships, in all era's that have stood out for one reason or another, in every case that ship either became obsolete, or a counter was devised against her. The Constitutions as a class were acknowledged as the Super Frigates of their day, the Royal Navy found a counter to them, the loss of the USS President demonstrates that fact, Likewise the Xebecs outclassed almost everything the the Old World superpowers threw at them until Xebec type ships, or the xebec hybrids, were employed against them, and, in 1777 Xebecs were also used by both the Continental Navy and Pennsylvania State Navy against the Royal Navy, the USS Champion being an example from the Continental Navy.

Sometimes, the only solution to a class of warships is to build and fight a similar design, the Dreadnought's were a case in point, every navy was obsolete overnight upon her launch, every Navy had to rebuild to counter her.

I think, The  Hercules and the xebec are exactly what they were historically, ground breaking designs that did what they were intended to do, but, the fact is, that the Hercules was rendered obsolete by later designs, and the xebecs were beaten by similar ships built by Old World navy's, and, may still have been in use by the USN.

Now It may be possible the Dev's could put in one one of the old world xebec, xebec hybrids or even the USS Champion, to counter the Le Requin, or someone will adapt a current model for speed and crew capacity, it would only be an approximation of the Xebecs capabilities, but, no warship type has ever proven to be invincible, the xebec is no exception to that rule.

DLC is a horse of a different colour, It may have been more prudent to select less controversial ships to pilot DLC, or better still, provided them as one off test models to test out before making them DLC, perhaps, then, we would have had a better idea of exactly what we would be facing, unfortunately that bell has been rung and cannot be unrung.

We can debate these vessels and DLC until the end of time, and, it is right that we should, but, we should also be actively using whatever tools are available to us to find a counter to them, that is no more, or no less than all navy's have ever done when confronted with an apparently insurmountable problem. Tactical evolution in a war game that uses real ships as it's basis inevitably mirrors real life, it cannot do otherwise, the solutions are already there, we merely have to find them again.  

[Hethwill]

 

[Vernon Merrill]

Oh, Prater....  *Le Sigh*

 

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

You read my post, you don't get it and first thing you say to me is "You don't get it do you?".

I don't really know what to say. Please don't quote me again.

You're a very stupid individual. Read what you said and come back with an actual argument. You don't want me to quote you again because you don't know what to say. I'm so sorry I said "you don't get it do you" but is there a nice way to tell someone theyre stupid? 

Edited August 22, 2018 by HachiRoku

[Cmdr RideZ]

35 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You're a very stupid individual. Read what you said and come back with an actual argument. You don't want me to quote you again because you don't know what to say. I'm so sorry I said "you don't get it do you" but is there a nice way to tell someone theyre stupid? 

I understand my own post.
This is turning a bit negative. Maybe it was not just our day.  No hard feelings man, lets continue another day.

[jodgi]

5 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

The point we are making is that dlc ships make other ships useless to a certain extent even if they are balanced. The bigger the dlc ship the worse it gets. They have to have an economical value in game. If it continues like this and 10 more dlc ships are added there would be 0 logic in sailing old ships.

Heh, naive old me started to ask for premium ships two years ago because I never enjoyed any of the eco and crafting everyone professed to love so. I don't need the role-play esque suspension of disbelief layer also called "meaning" and "loss" to enjoy the fighting. I know others do and that's fine.

So there I was thinking I'm the odd one out. Maybe there were others like me? At least I thought so. If a few fun-loving fighters got a way to enjoy the game without any of the pointless boredom, what harm could it do? All the loud eco/craft lovers would surely continue engaging in their most important gameplay and keep on hauling, port-clicking and all that stuff that makes the game worth playing?

Are there in fact too many guys like me who only eco/craft if forced to?

[Slim McSauce]

5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Heh, naive old me started to ask for premium ships two years ago because I never enjoyed any of the eco and crafting everyone professed to love so. I don't need the role-play esque suspension of disbelief layer also called "meaning" and "loss" to enjoy the fighting. I know others do and that's fine.

So there I was thinking I'm the odd one out. Maybe there were others like me? At least I thought so. If a few fun-loving fighters got a way to enjoy the game without any of the pointless boredom, what harm could it do? All the loud eco/craft lovers would surely continue engaging in their most important gameplay and keep on hauling, port-clicking and all that stuff that makes the game worth playing?

Are there in fact too many guys like me who only eco/craft if forced to?

you want the meta to accomodate your unwillingness to play an MMO. You should advocated for the return of NA:legends, not trying to change the identity of base NA.

You don't want to be forced to eco, yet you're forcing eco players to play at a disadvantage against you. What hypocrisy, this attitude would never fly anywhere else.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Are there in fact too many guys like me who only eco/craft if forced to?

  same reason people duplicated mods. its an advantage

[Lovec1990]

14 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Are there in fact too many guys like me who only eco/craft if forced to?

Not the only one😀

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Are there in fact too many guys like me who only eco/craft if forced to?

You are not the only one but I believe many who think like you quit the game already.
I understood DLC ships created more PvP and fun for many. Why it actually might be a mistake to remove daily DLC ships.

Some ideas...

Decrease prices for ships from 4th to 7th rate. Bring these down to level that small 5th rates are very fast and cheap to craft, create competitive options for DLC ships. 4th to 7th rates would be the OW PvP ships.
1st to 3rd rates could be then RvR ships. Economy heavy but needed to win port battles.

Clan vs player resource buildings could come in picture here. Player resource buildings easily enough to craft 4-7th rates and clan buildings for SOLs. With player resource buildings it should still be possible to craft SOLs, it would just take more time and harder to manage big clans.

They could even introduce "Small Wood Logs" if needed, that are not behind wood cartel.

Just saying that they probably could achieve both if they wanted.

[z4ys]

3 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Decrease prices for ships from 4th to 7th rate

Player do the prices with 400%  and more profit

When they sell repairs for 3k each its way over 100% profit

Edited August 22, 2018 by z4ys

[jodgi]

12 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

you want the meta to accomodate your unwillingness to play an MMO. You should advocated for the return of NA:legends, not trying to change the identity of base NA.

You don't want to be forced to eco, yet you're forcing eco players to play at a disadvantage against you. What hypocrisy, this attitude would never fly anywhere else.

Well, I haven't played anything but MMO's for many years, NA is the first with eco and loss. You may define MMO as including role-play, eco, crafting and full-loot loss, but not everyone does. Found a tongue-in-cheek definition on urbandictionary I'll include for unrelated shits and giggles:

When I first heard about eco/crafting I thought it sounded really cool on paper. Then I saw what it does to the collective player psychology and wasn't amused. I understand what you guys mean when you say it brings "depth and meaning" to the gaming experience, I even agree that it does, but it takes away so much from the things that I enjoy. Think in terms of "one step forward, ten leaps back". Even without eco we would have ganking, noob-bashing, capital waters cherry picking and general timidness, it's just multiplied with full loss and the need to grind for pvp gear.

I know I'm the antichrist to eco lovers and I happily accept the role as a punching bag. 

Ofcourse I want legends back! No need to nag incessantly about stuff not on the table for the time being.

I have a different opinion of what "base NA" is.

I don't want to force anyone. In a perfect silly world I'd say people should be able to pvp all day, port click all day or swing role as they like. I understand the eco makes that impossible because stuff breaks for you guys when ships are easy to get, the doesn't lead me to be angry at the dlc ships but I direct my irritation towards eco.

You really think it's hypocrisy? I thought I was abundantly clear and consistent.

[Slim McSauce]

31 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Well, I haven't played anything but MMO's for many years, NA is the first with eco and loss. You may define MMO as including role-play, eco, crafting and full-loot loss, but not everyone does. Found a tongue-in-cheek definition on urbandictionary I'll include for unrelated shits and giggles:

When I first heard about eco/crafting I thought it sounded really cool on paper. Then I saw what it does to the collective player psychology and wasn't amused. I understand what you guys mean when you say it brings "depth and meaning" to the gaming experience, I even agree that it does, but it takes away so much from the things that I enjoy. Think in terms of "one step forward, ten leaps back". Even without eco we would have ganking, noob-bashing, capital waters cherry picking and general timidness, it's just multiplied with full loss and the need to grind for pvp gear.

I know I'm the antichrist to eco lovers and I happily accept the role as a punching bag. 

Ofcourse I want legends back! No need to nag incessantly about stuff not on the table for the time being.

I have a different opinion of what "base NA" is.

I don't want to force anyone. In a perfect silly world I'd say people should be able to pvp all day, port click all day or swing role as they like. I understand the eco makes that impossible because stuff breaks for you guys when ships are easy to get, the doesn't lead me to be angry at the dlc ships but I direct my irritation towards eco.

You really think it's hypocrisy? I thought I was abundantly clear and consistent.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I genuinely want to know why you think economy isn't good or was never good and I know now. Listen, I'm not happy with economy either. It's really not anybodies fault for wanting to play the game they find the most fun. To be honest when I play I'm not having fun with the economy, not one bit. It's very painful to go through and only now that I've started spending my small pool of pvp marks on ships (So far I've redeemed two bellonas, a pirate frigate, an LVG refit and a l'hermione, the last three I still have fortunately) I too sometimes wish the whole economy was that streamlined. Real economy is a chore, but here's what I really want from the economy we have.

I want engagements to be decided and rewarded based on what's on the ship at the time. Whether it be attacking a fleet of player traders for their heavy traffic of gold to a certain port, or for my privateering to be rewarded handsomely for seeking out lone traders trying to make an easy buck. Both give me thrill, but with everything being marks this, marks that, redeemable ships and whatnot I don't feel that anymore, and I don't see these situation occur.

I don't disagree with your sentiment on eco, I completely understand and even share that look on economy and crafting as a whole, but in the long term I want NA to be a near perfect recreating of what it would be like in that time period, doing what captains would be doing, living the life of a seaman. With what seems like every ship being poofed from thin air I lose that. No I don't want to remove marks, or redeemables, or DLC ships. I want economy to be proudly at the forefront of Naval Action, where it's not a chore to do everything, you aren't wasting hours doing the pointless get rich trade runs so you can play the fucking game. I want the economy to be as seemless as marks are, but I want economy to be important so we can have those realistic scenarios, and seeing what's coming next patch, THERE IT IS! But oh no, now we're dealing with this DLC ship controversy that has everyone at each other's throats again when we haven' even gotten a taste of this new, revamped economy that could save the game on it's own without having to get into paying real life money for ships.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

I'm the antichrist to eco lovers

You provide a diametric overlook to the same problems by other means. It is fair and important as some aspects that "bridge" the two schools of thinking can be challenging as game design are concerned ( not code, but game design ) but it is possible.

I totally get your approach and having a AH type of thing. In the end, in a full "premium" scenario, we would still use tickets or something similar. Shut down enemy ports, reduce them to "not available", etc. 

combat is what brings the most ppl together to NA, but what motivates them to go into combat is what makes us all different.

we a herd of wild cats

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

I too sometimes wish the whole economy was that streamlined.

Maybe the upcoming rework will do wonders?

1 hour ago, Slim McSauce said:

I want engagements to be decided and rewarded based on what's on the ship at the time. Whether it be attacking a fleet of player traders for their heavy traffic of gold to a certain port, or for my privateering to be rewarded handsomely for seeking out lone traders trying to make an easy buck.

This is perfectly fine and even sounds good to me. However much I try I can't put all the variables into my head, work them and pretend to reach a valid conclusion. With that disclaimer out of the way I have questions about eco vs. pvp that are not combative in nature.

The sum of the questions can be formulated as "How do we get people to play the victim?"

It seems to me people do the darndest things to avoid that: Buy dlc, hide in reinforcement zone, hide in remote corners, gank instead of being ganked, tp and fleet loopholes or "exploits", rage-quit, normal-quit  and the list goes on, I'm sure. The one thing the listed items have in common is that they affect pvp negatively, either quality or frequency.

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

but with everything being marks this, marks that

Marks do feel forced and artificial as opposed to what you outline. They became a thing because of the sad state of pvp. They've been a success as far as pvp frequency goes, but I'm open to pvp quality going down, up or sideways  Same goes for dlc ships. Yay, quantity! But what about quality?

Open and honest question: If you picture the perfect NA economy; Can such a thing exist without it being a chore? I'm aware the question is loaded but this is me asking. You already said you don't want it to be a chore, but how would that work?

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

I want NA to be a near perfect recreating of what it would be like in that time period, doing what captains would be doing, living the life of a seaman.

If you role-play the captain it's weird that you have to worry about shipyard, resources and money in big enough chunks to build a ship from scratch. I could twist the above quote as a defense for dlc ships. Don't comment on this, here's the talking point I'm getting at:

"For eco to work in a global game sense (all but) every player has to assume the role of admiral/minister with responsibilites touching the national budget or at least navy budget. We can't have pure navy career captains who only worry about shot, repair, refit and crew cost."

Clans can easily make this happen but I'm apprehensive about the "clan up or gtfo" implication.

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

17 hours ago, z4ys said:

Player do the prices with 400%  and more profit

When they sell repairs for 3k each its way over 100% profit

I mean crafting price in resources.

Simple extreme example. I want a Teak-Teak Surprise so I put together one Teak plank + frame. When before I was able to build 5 Surprises, now I am able to build 100 Surprises.

Competitive option for DLC ships.

[Hethwill]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

We can't have pure navy career captains who only worry about shot, repair, refit and crew cost.

Not for the average scenario, that is correct. ( nobody wants to be average, everyone wants to feel a Lucky Jack )

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Open and honest question: If you picture the perfect NA economy; Can such a thing exist without it being a chore? I'm aware the question is loaded but this is me asking. You already said you don't want it to be a chore, but how would that work?

Very cheap ships for OW PvP.

SOLs to be the more expensive ones that we have today.

Room for DLC ships, plenty of fights with cheap OW PvP ships, RvR and big clans are then the 3rd option that are more economy based.

Upgrades and books could be rare for SOLs but not for 4th to 7th rates.

[AeRoTR]

If Niagra was a DLC, if we had privateer as DLC, would it be different, I think would be much different. There would be no huge feedback topic for the ships. 

Think about it, why? I think problem is obvious and devs already understood. 

[Hethwill]

This one  

Mystique. A half xebec. Not a full xebec. Just half.

 

 

[Fenris]

On 8/22/2018 at 3:57 PM, z4ys said:

imagine shallow ships would have the BR range of 0-200

All other ships get their BR lifted accordingly and deep water BRs as well so they stay the same.

Xebec could be 200BR

Hrattle could be 180BR

Prince could be 140BR

Privateer could be 90BR

etc

keep shallow portbattle BR limits  and suddenly they would make fun again. (in the sense of to not exclude non dlc owners)

It doesn`t change a lot, if you just scramble the BR values without comparing ships.

Requin will stay the most powerful(totally overpowered) ship.

Look at Nassau Port BR, if it stays that high, a nation, a clan, with most Requins able to fill PB will win, and BR numbers don`t change a thing.

Just like you(Prussia) did, you practically WALKED IN into Nassau, having 3 times so much Requins as Sweden. Now lower the BR of Nassau Port, it changes basically nothing, or are you trying to tell me that you would start to use Privateers suddenly, just to have more ships?

Are you serious or are you desperately trying to save your money?

 

[z4ys]

On 8/23/2018 at 3:28 AM, MassimoSud said:

This is what happened now: I m sailing in a wasa, chain a requin up to 52%, I break his bowsprit too. The requin can not repair, but leads to sail against the wind and in 30 seconds goes away undisturbed...

 

 

On 8/23/2018 at 8:39 AM, AeRoTR said:

....

A privateer with pirate rig ? a privateer with 60 crew (instead of 250) 12 guns of 12 pounder carros instead of 32 pounders. I dare you guys come farm with Privateer in reinforcement zone. You can run away anytime with it, who give a crap, that is all you can do.

....

Le Requin... Fight kill, he is a problem, just go upwind and runaway.

...

 

On 7/26/2018 at 10:59 AM, Hullabaloo said:

Le Requin:....  It's stats are OP: too many crew, too fast, too good a sailing profile, hard to hit and surprisingly tough if you do hit it. It's (pretty much) uncatchable by anything that can kill it....

 

 

On 8/19/2018 at 10:02 PM, Arngill said:

.... Le Req trickship just runs upwind and no-one can touch them. ...

Pissed off, may leave.

 

 

What Requin can do I can do better

 

Quote

For anyone who wants to see the whole battle click this link

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by z4ys

[Charles Edward Stuart]

11 hours ago, z4ys said:

 

 

Quality video, +1.