Patch 14: Part 2 experimental patch increasing realism in ship behavior

[maturin]

2 hours ago, Malachy said:

You should try it, you can't effectively stern camp someone without lowering sails lol

Sure you can, if they don't lower theirs. But stern camping is mostly what I was referencing in my post anyways. Except also  in NAL where you need the quick kill through the hull.

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Do you think that is good for game health? Unless you can provide detailed tutorial that teaches all the sailing techniques it will work, but sailing is too complex for new guys right now. I sail in my turn fitted Constitution and can still do 3:1 broadsides, but not as effectively as before with so much work involved. For hardcore players it's a dream come true, but new guys are doomed. 

New guys don't have Bellonas. Do I really need to waste my breath pointing this out?

THINK OF THE CHILDREN is becoming more and more of a mindless mantra with each new patch.

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Has anything been done about first / second rates handling like frigates, ie being able to turn through the wind from a full stop in under a minute?
 

Yes, you can't really rotate in place anymore. At least in terms of tacking. It is still possible, but uselessly slooooow. Acceleration is still generous enough that you are always better building up speed now.

However, it does seem like there's a lot less difference between a good tack and a bad tack.

[Malachy]

3 minutes ago, maturin said:

Sure you can, if they don't lower theirs. But stern camping is mostly what I was referencing in my post anyways. Except also  in NAL where you need the quick kill through the hull.

Most folks don't want boarded. If you do it right they should be at lower sails than you and they will run full sails to keep from losing enough speed to be boarded. Then you need to lower sails to rake. Like I said, you should try it. Also you minimally need to depower, but usually have to lower sails on bigger ships to reduce momentum enough for all balls to hit home. Sounds like you are a snow driver lol.

[Farrago]

2 hours ago, Capn Rocko said:

The developers will make an in-game tutorial soon, but there are plenty of player-made tutorials that are likely better than anything that will implemented in-game (imo). Every time I help a new player, I make them watch several tutorial videos before I show them anything and they always thank me for it. 

A bit off topic but would you mind making a post in the Guides section with a list of those recommended videos? I’d love to be able to point new players in that direction. Thanks. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

On 12/7/2017 at 3:08 PM, Jarlath Morrow said:

Good points @maturin.

I really like the idea about delaying acceleration until the sails would have time to fill with wind.

As for acceleration, perhaps all acceleration is too great? I think turn acceleration could also use a look.

One of the reasons the Surprise has the acceleration she does in @Liq's video is she has (according to the provided spreadsheet) an acceleration time of 16 seconds. This very low accel-time is probably related to her weight, which is also very low at 660. Even leaving her impressive staysail arrangement, changes to acceleration on the Surprise (and all ships) could be done from the weight side of the equation.

This should be seen more in game as to why light/small ships can seem faster from the go.  They should have a shorter time to set sails and get up to speed (better acceleration).  While bigger ships might have a higher top speed they take for ever to set sails and get to that top speed.  This could mean the small ship has a chance to get away from the bigger much faster ship if it can get a good head start but in the long run that bigger ship with more sails and higher top speed will eventually run you down.  Also why we need things like shallows in battle so the little ships can use that against the bigger ships.  Any one notice it in a few battles that some of the shore lings act as shallows?

23 hours ago, victor said:

TBH, the scenario is pretty much this:

1) who already knew how to manual sail will play just as before, even better.

2) Who did not learn how to manual sail (since there is no instruction or tutorial) will likely leave the game.

3) New players ... well ... they will have a even steeper learning curve (when part 3 of the patch will be deployed).

I like new sailing model, but nonetheless I fear not all the squirrels around are wrong.

Funny how mos of the folks I know that don't have a clue how to manual sail aren't the new players, it's old timers that don't learn.   Most of the new players ask and we send them off to some great videos though out dated.  Speaking of which would be nice if some great person did a few updated videos cause some of them are from over a year ago.  Even with the Tutorial it's going to be the players that gives most of these resources to new players.   Though a tutorial mission when you get into a 2 mast ship might be nice to learn the basics that you really can't learn in a basic cutter from start.

22 hours ago, Liq said:

So it's almost like you need to practise to get better, huh amazing

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Ok.. *Smartass-Mode Off*

Manual sailing is one of the first things you learn though when going into pvp. It really isn't that hard

What pratise makes you get better?  Get out of here there is no way that works....lol

22 hours ago, Jarlath Morrow said:

It's not just about new players vs. veterans like @victor said. There are also players that are okay at manual sailing, and with this patch they will really be rewarded for refining their techniques.

Like you say we need to practice to get better, and now it's even more worth it to practice.

I'll admit I'm an ok sailor when it comes to Manual Sailing, but I'm not no expert and my stubby mechanic fingers don't always want to hit the keys I need to when I want too...not every one is going to be the expert and that is good.  Gives me a chance in fights....lol

12 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Lets not underestimate the intelligence of new players. It takes about 5 minutes to learn manual sailing and 2 battles to get the hang of it. Tutorial is weeks away, the casuals are in good hands.

It's more the old timers that are set in there ways I think we will have more problems with than new players that are coming in with better mechanics to learn from.  We just need to be helpful with them and get out there and teach them.  

[Cabral]

8 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

Perhaps you are not?   They've changed.

 Yes, they've changed for better, not for worse like he's saying.

[Malachy]

There was a hot fix today... any notes?

 

The connie now seems particularly sluggish and turns worse than any of the 4th rates. Is this intended? Irl the Connie handles extremely well, I've had the pleasure of sailing on her. Is this what the hit fix did today?

[Landsman]

On 07/12/2017 at 4:02 PM, George Washington said:

Also, since when Indiaman is 4th rank?

It was always considered 4th rate in game... if you buy a ship in port and sort by rate the Indiaman will be a 4th rate and the LGV a 5th rate.

 

On 07/12/2017 at 6:37 PM, admin said:

We are sure that some landlubbers prefer first rates to sail as motorboats, but hey - they can sail them in other games (and even install ram on their ship)

I love how you try to keep the game as realistic as possible ( except for repairs ). Never change, please. This ship behavior update is nothing but awsome, don't let the plebs tell you otherwise...

On 07/12/2017 at 6:37 PM, admin said:

I care about sailing profiles. I am making this game for myself first. I decide what to add first and last. 

Now despite this guy being your customer... MUCH respect for this comment. Also I and many other care about sailing profiles. In my opinion ship balance and realistic sailing behaviour are the most important aspects of the game, followed by the great visuals and quality of the ship models.

[Jean Ribault]

11 hours ago, Cabral said:

 Yes, they've changed for better, not for worse like he's saying.

So you are saying that 30 degrees into the wind in OW, before was about 8 knots in my LGV or Connie, now is 3 knots, and that is better?  Better how?  Or maybe I was just dreaming all those comments in global chat actually happened saying that very thing?  Yeah that must be it.  Remember he's saying OW, not battle instance.  And perhaps not for all ships, how many have you tested?

Edited December 9, 2017 by Jean Ribault

[Cabral]

19 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

So you are saying that 30 degrees into the wind in OW, before was about 8 knots in my LGV or Connie, now is 3 knots, and that is better?  Better how?  Or maybe I was just dreaming all those comments in global chat actually happened saying that very thing?  Yeah that must be it.  Remember he's saying OW, not battle instance.  And perhaps not for all ships, how many have you tested?

 I tested connie, mine does 14 knts at 30 degrees into the wind in OW.

[Jean Ribault]

Just now, Cabral said:

 I tested connie, mine does 14 knts at 30 degrees into the wind in OW.

OK you got patch 16 already then.  No one else has that one yet, sorry.

[Cabral]

3 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

OK you got patch 16 already then.  No one else has that one yet, sorry.

 I made another test and found your problem in OW, at 15 degrees does 4 knts, but at 30 degrees does 14 knts. If you want a sail boat to go fast against wind maybe you should use only the motor.

[Jean Ribault]

Just now, Cabral said:

 I made another test and found your problem in OW, at 15 degrees does 4 knts, but at 30 degrees does 14 knts. If you want a sail boat to go fast against wind maybe you should use only the motor.

Yes, well 30 degree was not an exact number, the whole point was the degrading difference into the wind in OW.  You missed that, because it's not just the one ship it's multiple.  Check out that entire thread about the Aggie, which also suffers.  And don't twist my words and say stupidly sarcastic things like motorboat, I never once asked for a motor boat and you know it.  I was pointing out the drop in OW sailing speed for certain ships to an OW where people are already screaming for faster travel.  But go on with your perfect world with your blinders on, there's no use in making a point when all you want to do is argue.  The point wasn't for you anyway, it's for those who are designing the game, that's what this thread is for.

[Quineloe]

18 hours ago, maturin said:

.

Yes, you can't really rotate in place anymore. At least in terms of tacking. It is still possible, but uselessly slooooow. Acceleration is still generous enough that you are always better building up speed now.

However, it does seem like there's a lot less difference between a good tack and a bad tack.

I don't know why you would post this. It's incorrect. Nothing was changed in this patch, I just tried this and I was easily able to go from this to this in just one minute.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Quineloe

[George Washington]

Guys try this:

1. Try to turn through the wind with Full sails (Not so good)

2. Try to turn through the wind with Slow sails (Better)

3. Try to turn through the wind with Battle sails (Good)

 Forget about old sailing, even rudder must be positioned to the other side now compared to the old system. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by George Washington

[Quineloe]

17 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Guys try this:

1. Try to turn through the wind with Full sails (Not so good)

2. Try to turn through the wind with Slow sails (Better)

3. Try to turn through the wind with Battle sails (Good)

 Forget about old sailing, even rudder must be positioned to the other side now compared to the old system. 

What ship, because the Wasa I just tried this with just stops even before crossing the wind.

[George Washington]

1 hour ago, Quineloe said:

What ship, because the Wasa I just tried this with just stops even before crossing the wind.

Constitution. Try to turn rudder to the opposite side/same. I have to test more. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by George Washington

[Quineloe]

1 minute ago, George Washington said:

Try to turn rudder to the opposite side. 

The rudder doesn't do anything if you do 0kn. If it somehow makes this possible, this is a major bug.

Actually show in video or in a series of screenshots what you  are talking about

Look at the two screenshots of the Pavel I turned through the wind in a minute. Prove you can do that faster with battle sails.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Quineloe

[Tenet]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:10 AM, Christendom said:

@admin how much closer are we to the possibility of a merge or some sort of character transfer option?  I’ve been witnessing a drop in numbers on EU lately and of course as you’re aware global is on life support barely cracking 100 on evenings without PBs. The game is very closely reaching pre wipe levels of activity.

I understand why sailing profiles were changed but we do need some sort of help from the devs to keep people interested in the game.... sail physics ain’t gonna do it.

1. No notification of spotting a Sails-up Player Ship and a large underpopulated map means long hours of staring at boring emptiness before any human interaction in OW, or camping capitals.

2. Capitals in center of map have safe-zones - we asked for safe zones, but not in the center of the map. There should have been newbie spawns without economy just to do missions, not at the center of the map, not where resources can be gathered easily. 

3. The map needs to be sized Dynamically - while 100 people are playing, only the very central area should be open (via resources disabled elsewhere or other means). Every nation should have a spawn point outside this area, but relatively close.  When server population goes up to 300 concurrent at prime times, a bigger zone of operations can be unlocked, and so on. This can be decided manually by the Game Masters (Admin). 

4. We need a Game Master with the tools to spawn and monitor events so fun stuff can happen on the server on frequent basis - several times a week. It is probably easier to implement without automation - you need a person who understands the meta and won't interfere with emergent gameplay if it is already in process (key PB's, raids, etc). 

It's nice to see Admin working on Sailing realism, and it will help the game in the long run, but it's not what brings people back to activity. 

[Verlich]

55 minutes ago, Tenet said:

1. No notification of spotting a Sails-up Player Ship and a large underpopulated map means long hours of staring at boring emptiness before any human interaction in OW, or camping capitals.

2. Capitals in center of map have safe-zones - we asked for safe zones, but not in the center of the map. There should have been newbie spawns without economy just to do missions, not at the center of the map, not where resources can be gathered easily. 

3. The map needs to be sized Dynamically - while 100 people are playing, only the very central area should be open (via resources disabled elsewhere or other means). Every nation should have a spawn point outside this area, but relatively close.  When server population goes up to 300 concurrent at prime times, a bigger zone of operations can be unlocked, and so on. This can be decided manually by the Game Masters (Admin). 

4. We need a Game Master with the tools to spawn and monitor events so fun stuff can happen on the server on frequent basis - several times a week. It is probably easier to implement without automation - you need a person who understands the meta and won't interfere with emergent gameplay if it is already in process (key PB's, raids, etc). 

It's nice to see Admin working on Sailing realism, and it will help the game in the long run, but it's not what brings people back to activity. 

Just to point out 4, would be really really bad, this isn't arma 3 zuesing. As to the other points dynamic mapping would probably murder server side performance. All capitals have safe zones, by middle of the map your thinking of specific countries. Swedish capital along with French are no where near the center of the map. Plus why do you need a notifiation to see players, you have eyes, and why are more to the HUD it' got just enough to not feel like your flying an A-10. Personally just make the global server the only PvP, congrats server pop. 

[DevsGoFluckYourselves]

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[DeRuyter]

On 12/7/2017 at 7:03 AM, admin said:

Naval Action is the ARMA of age of sail. We have THE BEST sailing model ever done in a computer game and we will continue to improve it. We are sure that some landlubbers prefer first rates to sail as motorboats, but hey - they can sail them in other games (and even install ram on their ship)

first rates no longer come out of tack at speed (it was happening because they had old inertia which is now fixed)

To really get there we need dynamic wind and weather effects and ship drafts - just sayn' - I know you can do it!

[maturin]

8 hours ago, Quineloe said:

I don't know why you would post this. It's incorrect. Nothing was changed in this patch, I just tried this and I was easily able to go from this to this in just one minute.

 

You started with your bow in the wind, far above the usual starting point for that maneuver. Then you are just using your rudder with sternway. This has always been possible (albeit slower when sternway was less).

The problem in the last patch was that you could turn from 90 degrees to 0 degrees with the yards alone, no rudder. I tried this in Agamemnon yesterday and it was not a viable maneuver in combat.

It's an entirely different issue.

[Quineloe]

I can do this 10 seconds slower without the rudder as well. If rudders had been this irrelevant, they wouldn't have been part of ships. Nothing seems to have changed at all since 14.1.

But the problem isn't that the ships can turn so fast without the rudder, the problem is that they can turn so fast *at all*

Edited December 9, 2017 by Quineloe

[Malachy]

9 hours ago, JoeForKyo said:

Fixed bug that allowed masts to turn on their own without dedicated crew to it..

Something they did really screwed up the Connie. It turns worse than a 1st rate now, quite a letdown from 14.1. At this point you may as well not have screwed around with them, it handled much more realistically before you fiddled with it. The Connie is and was a frigate and should handle as such. It handles worse than all the lineships. If you plan on leaving it like this you may As well remove it from the game. Its main purpose is to handle better than the heavier armed 4th rates and with your so called fix, it handles much much worse.

like I said, I have had the pleasure of sailing on the Connie (the real one) and she handles like a dream. You might want to seriously rethink these changes because you really got it wrong in this case. @admin

Edited December 10, 2017 by Malachy

[DevsGoFluckYourselves]

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