Patch 10.4 Conquest changes, Battle Groups, Wapen von Hamburg (III)

[Liq]

I think it was way better when we only had Copper plating and Speed Trim Upgrade (-10% HP) for speed mods.

If you don't give the playground to even allow a 15 knot speed meta, it can't even evolve.

edit: BUT PLEASE, then make copper plating accessable!! Not only through dull pve grinding with a droprate of 0.01%

Edited July 21, 2017 by Liquicity

[Guest]

Here's a thought.. Remove all speed mods except copperplating (that should only give 0.5 kn extra speed as all historical evidence suggested (that I've been made aware of)) - Bovenwinds refit? Magic refit says I.. Crooked hull? - BS says I.. GAZELLE figurehead?? Voodoo practices say I.. Keep the shipknowledge + crew req and the copperplating.. burn the rest.

 

EDIT: And improve the damn turnrate on the Endymion! Why the bleeding blazes of the burning city of Panama do the Endymion turn slower than a 74-gun third rate ship of the line???!!

Edited July 21, 2017 by Guest

[Rouleur]

The difference in the base speed of ships is too great overall and buffing the difference by a speed mod percentage multiplier just exaggerates the difference. Better to have mods with absolute improvements in speed so no ship running the same base build gets any relative advantage for running the same mods. The speed cap can then go and the sailing profile is unaffected apart from stay/studding sails choices. Most of the exaggeration of speed difference due to player choice will then be because a heavy ship will not just be outfitted with speed mods.

[Corona Lisa]

Good hotfix.

Next step: Give more XP from PvP. Nerf Cartahena or make it more accessible as its the only item which provides thickness.

[admin]

1 hour ago, koltes said:

what is the point of sailing anything but renommee?

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, koltes said:

IMHO The speed mods needs to remain the same as they where. Speed Bonus Coefficient (SBC) is worked in Linear Coefficient formula that is applied to each upgrade/mod used.

Formula: SBC * SpeedBonus% + BaseSpeed = ActualSpeed

1. Each ship has its own Speed Bonus Coefficient (SBC) that determines how the same mods/upgrades applied to this particular ships. For example 5% Gazelle should give lesser speed buff to 1st rate than it gives to Renommee. By simply adjusting the coefficient we can control how this particular ship is sailing
2. Speed cap is removed and by adjusting SBC we balance all ship speeds according to their base speed and POS profiles.
3. Ships of the same rates could have different SCB making each ship truly unique. On example, however, they are the same for comparison purpose.
4. Permanent upgrades have stuckable  penalties. 2nd upgrade -1%, 3rd ugrade -2%

There you have it. No speed cap. Every single ship using same speed mods but because of SBC they are applied differently and we dont have Connies racing Pickles. The last column is your highest speed. Obviously coefficient needs to be adjusted to fit with all speed upgrades and skills. Buts some speed mods needs to go anyway.

The Snow's numbers is wrong.  The Snow base speed is 12.95.

 

[HarryButpain]

4 hours ago, koltes said:

Issue with upgrades was that same upgrade was giving same speed bonuses to 1st rates and 7th rates, which in reality the heavier the ship lesser should be the bonuses from the same upgrades. You must use linear coefficient to apply upgrade values to the ships differently

Im sorry but this new speed nerf is just as bad. Super fast is was bad, now everyone gonna be super slow.

The issue being on the same speed on the same POS still persists! Just at the lower speed. This kills solo hunters even faster than the 15kn speed cap

yea.. Come on, admin, when a captain of a lighter ship fits it for speed he will see better results than someone in a tub.. Speed mods become worse the bigger your ship is..

[Hodo]

1 minute ago, admin said:

what is the point of sailing anything but renommee?

Prior to this patch what was the point in sailing anything other than a Buce?  Or a Ballona?

[admin]

11 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Prior to this patch what was the point in sailing anything other than a Buce?  Or a Ballona?

We have the answer on how to fix this issue but unfortunately it is impossible to implement it in this game (due to how changes are welcomed by the players). New generations of future sailing multiplayer games will not have this problem due to significant changes to combat, implementation of fatigue and morale, deeper sail control and first broadside importance. Balancing the combat not based on ship stats but around the positioning, fatigue control and sail management will provide options for experienced player to win against a superior ship (speedy vs el gamo) or (mercury brig vs 2 line ships)

With the current system the game is balanced around ship stats and players will sail 3-4 ships in the ow ignoring all others. There will always be the best ship for the task and once Xebec is added most solo players will sail the Xebecs, because of its speed profile and large crew. 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

what is the point of sailing anything but renommee?

The sailing profile. Ideally all ships should have their uses, advantages and disadvantages. The surprise and the connie is by far the best PvP ships in terms of sailing profiles and with the current ability to radically change absolute speeds on the ships they are the only viable options for PvP'ing - the ability to outrun anything in a surp is devastating, I think we can all live with it being faster than the reno on certain points of sail, but it shouldn't out  do the reno on the renos best point of sail - then the reno is useless.

Same can be said about the endymion - that ship is the worst ship ingame in terms of sailing profile and handling and due to the ability to increase absolute speeds to 15kn has no advantages, at all. Which means that in order to counter them you need as fast surps and connies... In the end no one sails anything but connies and surps. Me? - I'm a masochist so I prefer the endymion and the reno but as long as you can radically increase the base speed of the surp and connie only ppl with either masochistic tendensies or a poor understanding of the speed meta sails anything else.

Should the speed cap be removed? - no.. It's not realistic to have ships flying across the water at +15kn of speed - please remember that the fastest sailing warship in this era was the endymion and it was only measured at around 14,3kn for a few hours as I recall, so please don't make anything faster possible without fusionengines powering their sails and I hope we can all agree that it is still a sailing ship game. So - remove the plethora of speed upgrades, use the knowledge slots only and for the love of all that is realistic remove the magic carpets of figurines. They should work as inspirations but not change the physical ability of the ships.. And remove all upgrades that radically change the characteristics of the hull - perhaps introduce the ability to razee a ship - but in it's historical context as in removing some of the guns in order to increase sailing speed/manouverability.

[Prater]

3 hours ago, koltes said:

Well sorry but this does not agree with me a single bit. The cap equalizes large hitting ships and small agile ships. Now you are killing small agile ships by removing then ONLY advantage they had - speed. You in fact achieving the same issue. Now everyone will be sailing fastest heavy hitting ships that could get close to cap = Connies - 14.92kn. 
I cant get away from the Connie on Surprise any more. Because speed on other POS is so slow I cant get away fast enough not to get my sails shredded to pieces. I cant sail "fast" Renommee because she is hold at 15kn on par with Connie.

I will turn this question back to you. Please help me to decide.
What am I supposed to do as a solo hunter? What ship should I choose? A Connie like other server population? Do I have any other options?
Even the pirate frigate that supposed to be "the hunting" ship, has no chasers and no speed. 

If you want variability we need ships to fit a purpose. Chasers. Hunters. Heavy hitters etc etc People will bring what suits for the job

 

How can a Surprise not outrun a Connie?  And remember by nerfing speed, it nerfs it at every point.  So before if we got 17 knots on our best points of sail but still capped at 15 knots, we were raising the speed at our worst points of sail.  Now that it is really hard to get above the 15 knot cap, our worst points of sail won't be raised much.  I had a Lynx that could outrun Square riggers down wind.  Not anymore, rightly so.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Prater

[Bart Smith]

Just switch off stacking of same category modules. All ships we capture recently from players were speed fitted - all count now is gank seems so.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bart Smith

[Hodo]

24 minutes ago, admin said:

We have the answer on how to fix this issue but unfortunately it is impossible to implement it in this game (due to how changes are welcomed by the players). New generations of future sailing multiplayer games will not have this problem due to significant changes to combat, implementation of fatigue and morale, deeper sail control and first broadside importance. Balancing the combat not based on ship stats but around the positioning, fatigue control and sail management will provide options for experienced player to win against a superior ship (speedy vs el gamo) or (mercury brig vs 2 line ships)

With the current system the game is balanced around ship stats and players will sail 3-4 ships in the ow ignoring all others. There will always be the best ship for the task and once Xebec is added most solo players will sail the Xebecs, because of its speed profile and large crew. 

 

So is it possible to have the sailing crew adjusted for the ship sails settings in battle.

So if you are running Battle Sails (40%) you should only need 40% of the required sailing crew.    I would then return the gun crew requirements to the pre-10.0 patch levels.  And this will fix several of the historical realism inaccuracies that I know I see.   Like ships fighting at full sails LOL.

 

Lastly if you add the Xebec and the Prince Neufchatue they will be the solo players ships of choice along side the Rattlesnake and Heavy Rattler.  

[Vernon Merrill]

29 minutes ago, admin said:

We have the answer on how to fix this issue but unfortunately it is impossible to implement it in this game (due to how changes are welcomed by the players). New generations of future sailing multiplayer games will not have this problem due to significant changes to combat, implementation of fatigue and morale, deeper sail control and first broadside importance. Balancing the combat not based on ship stats but around the positioning, fatigue control and sail management will provide options for experienced player to win against a superior ship (speedy vs el gamo) or (mercury brig vs 2 line ships)

With the current system the game is balanced around ship stats and players will sail 3-4 ships in the ow ignoring all others. There will always be the best ship for the task and once Xebec is added most solo players will sail the Xebecs, because of its speed profile and large crew. 

 

This is true to a certain degree.  Why would anyone sail a Brig when you can sail a Mercury?   Well, the answer lies in $$$.  Make Brigs, for example, a poor-mans ship. Easily available for players who need a cheap ship to learn.  Same for Cerbs, Frigates, etc....

[Prater]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Don't put the blame on us. We are testers, give us a test bed with those changes implemented and let us see?

My guess is the changes would require a whole new system, basically a whole new game.

 

More sail control would be awesome though.  On the Snow you can sail at 75 degrees into the wind and change from full sail to half sail and still go the same speed.  It brings in the top gallants which don't have any force at that angle.  I wish I could do this on the surprise but surprise half sail lowers staysails whereas snow half sails does not.

[Prater]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I would assume that as well, which is on the dev's not on us as players.  The fact they feel the need to blame us for the limitations in their engine is beyond me (which is nothing new, I might point out).

Look at today's change.  Look at any change.  It basically comes down to this:  40% are for it (very vocal), 40% are against it (very vocal), 10% don't care, 10% want something else.  I made up the numbers, but it is something like that.  We have different camps that are very vocal and who are rarely willing to compromise.  The different camps then try to blackmail or hold the devs hostage with game reviews.  Everything is this way.  There is always a severe negative reaction and a strong positive reaction.  I personally don't even know what I would do in such a situation.  And how do you even begin to bring the different camps together and please your customers?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Prater

[jodgi]

49 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Don't put the blame on us. We are testers, give us a test bed with those changes implemented and let us see?

(I noticed you said "testbed" but people will react negatively to good changes since they're invested in the old ways when the corrections finally hits live.)

[HachiRoku]

0-100 again great job. Ive no words anymore.... I would say what I think but no one cares what a pvper says in this game. You only care about carebears, revenge ganking and drove away almost every skilled pvper in game not listening to them over the last years.

Edited July 21, 2017 by HachiRoku

[jodgi]

3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

0-100 again great job

You misread, it's 22%, like, literally.

We do care about ideas that have merit, or at least thoughts that have been turned over a few times. You can whisper into Otto's ear as a fallback.

 

[Quineloe]

6 hours ago, Zoky said:

When your lo/wo ship goes 11.5 and your bermuda one cant ever reach 13.5 and has so much debuffs now you know you hello kittyed up somewhere

I find it a good indicator that the only players complaining about these changes are the players who 6vs1 jump into missions to gank and only ever show their stern to an equal strength revenge fleet, to the point where they even shoot to sink each other once they've outrun their opponents to prevent them from getting another shot at capturing their raceboat Constitutions.

Your 13.5 Bermuda ship still easily outruns any LO WO ship. It just doesn't easily outrun everyone else as well, though.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Quineloe

[HachiRoku]

Just now, jodgi said:

You misread, it's 22%, like, literally.

We do care about ideas that have merit, or at least thoughts that have been turned over a few times. You can whisper into Otto's ear as a fallback.

 

Oh really? You think speed mods where the problem? They were only a small part of the broken ship speeds like bellonas, Connies doing 15 knots  Cutting all upgrades is simply lazy when every ship needs to be well tested. All they did is slowed game down by 22% LOL that is it. Now fir fir ganking/running ships are meta again....... 

[Zoky]

1 minute ago, Quineloe said:

6 hours ago, Zoky said:

 

I find it a good indicator that the only players complaining about these changes are the players who 6vs1 jump into missions to gank and only ever show their stern to an equal strength revenge fleet, to the point where they even shoot to sink each other once they've outrun their opponents to prevent them from getting another shot at capturing their raceboat Constitutions.

LOL are u accusing me of ganking? You should have asked dutch about me before you decided to share your stupidity with us 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Zoky

[Quineloe]

1 minute ago, Zoky said:

LOL are u accusing me of ganking?

What if I am? You gonna gank me?

[Quineloe]

6 hours ago, Eleven said:

That build must be fir/fir... so it doesn't matter what that does on paper, the ships stay shit in battle. Just remove patch and remove speedcap with next "hotfix" thank you!

Shit in what type of battle? It still has a billion armor, even with fir, and a 53 cannon broadside. Lord Fishes Fir Fir revenge fleet Bucentaure certainly is stronger than any fourth rate, no matter the wood.

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

You think speed mods where the problem?

Yup.

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

They were only a small part of the broken ship speeds like bellonas, Connies doing 15 knots

What made bellonas and connies reach 15 knots?

3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

very ship needs to be well tested.

Oh, we did that. A lot of it. Then speedmods were introduced...

4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Now fir fir ganking/running ships are meta again...

When wasn't it?