Trying to solve revenge fleet problem

[Prater]

1 hour ago, Vllad said:

Any suggestions to make NA realistic is a waste of time unless you start by scaling the real world and sailing speeds and eliminating instant based combat. The minute instants are introduced you must suspend any belief that you can simulate reality. Generally reality sucks anyway. 

This is a combat "GAME" not a sim to have us deal with the realities of scurvy, no wind, bad currents and a whole slew of other things are just not fun. 

I don't even buy into peoples arguments about reality. If they were serious about it they would be offering many more suggestions on other non realistic issues. People just use reality as a lazy way to debate a mechanic they don't like. 

 

You have to blend realism and gameplay.  I don't think anyone has argued differently.  Your argument is the same dismissal as the one you level against those who bring up realism.  The problem with revenge fleets is as I have described above.  Not only is it a jarring disconnect and break in immersion, it ruins pvp.  Why pvp when after every other battle it is just going to be a revenge gank because the person you were fighting can't take a defeat with stride and character?

[Vllad]

1 hour ago, Prater said:

You have to blend realism and gameplay. Not only is it a jarring disconnect and break in immersion, it ruins pvp.  

Not only do you never "have" to blend realism and gameplay but those companies that try fail repeatedly at making quality products. Short of gravity everything else is on the table for the sake of making a quality game and even that can be debated. 

 

Revenge fleets are not a jarring disconnect and in fact make the RvR and PVP better. Without having to repeat another thread on this topic go read the thread Naval No Action in the general section. 

 

 

 

[Niels Terkildsen]

Excuse my frankness, but why are you even playing Naval Action? The setting doesn't seem to interest you. Find something that's all about gameplay and isn't weighed down by any connection to reality, historical periods, physics, etc.

[akd]

This is a PvE game now.

[Vllad]

1 hour ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

- http://store.steampowered.com/app/311310/

  Reveal hidden contents

Sorry about contributing to the "noise".

 

Since they advertised realism and what NA has provided isn't enough you must be disappointed that we have:

Instanced combat, a lack of prevailing winds, no currents, no disease, the ability to sail a day in just a couple of minutes, ship of the Lines, Pirates/Privateers having access to ships larger than 6th rates, Port Battles, RvR map in general, Clans, the entire mission system, crafting, ship building, a chat window, the entire trade system, consumables, marks and just about everything else in the game that doesn't represent how it realistically worked?

 

 

[Vernon Merrill]

2 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Since they advertised realism and what NA has provided isn't enough you must be disappointed that we have:

Instanced combat, a lack of prevailing winds, no currents, no disease, the ability to sail a day in just a couple of minutes, ship of the Lines, Pirates/Privateers having access to ships larger than 6th rates, Port Battles, RvR map in general, Clans, the entire mission system, crafting, ship building, a chat window, the entire trade system, consumables, marks and just about everything else in the game that doesn't represent how it realistically worked?

 

 

Please tell me which server and faction you play for.... 

[Vllad]

8 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Please tell me which server and faction you play for.... 

French, Global. Clan Purge. 

[Dharus]

2 hours ago, Prater said:

You have to blend realism and gameplay.  I don't think anyone has argued differently.  Your argument is the same dismissal as the one you level against those who bring up realism.  The problem with revenge fleets is as I have described above.  Not only is it a jarring disconnect and break in immersion, it ruins pvp.  Why pvp when after every other battle it is just going to be a revenge gank because the person you were fighting can't take a defeat with stride and character?

Yeah, if i recall Blackbeard hated revenge fleets too because it wasnt fair.  It broke his immersion for being a pirate....

Yes, I'm being snarky.  But seriously, first it's a game and second it's a nice shade of grey in terms of realism.  The game and players have the tools and choices available to avoid 90% of the problem stated here.  Personally i dont mind the challenge they present.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Dharus

[Vllad]

9 minutes ago, Dharus said:

Yeah, if i recall Blackbeard hated revenge fleets too because it wasnt fair. 

 

Since we are going with realism. We should just eliminate the chat window and make it so if you want to communicate with another captain you need to be in spy glass range and you have to read the flags on his mast to exchange messages. You can't actually use the chat unless going slower than 2.5 kn's and within one small boat range. 

[Neptune]

Some people just won't admit that they are PVE players and that is why they need revenge fleets. Revenge fleets are unrealistic and never happened in the age of sail. "we need them for gameplay purposes", yeah ok. PVE players need them.  

[Niels Terkildsen]

1 hour ago, Vllad said:

Since they advertised realism and what NA has provided isn't enough you must be disappointed that we have:

Instanced combat, a lack of prevailing winds, no currents, no disease, the ability to sail a day in just a couple of minutes, ship of the Lines, Pirates/Privateers having access to ships larger than 6th rates, Port Battles, RvR map in general, Clans, the entire mission system, crafting, ship building, a chat window, the entire trade system, consumables, marks and just about everything else in the game that doesn't represent how it realistically worked?

Hey, mate. You're not far off. If this was a single player game, I'd have to agree with all the above (that would be a dream). In order for the game to work as a big multiplayer game, I realise that we can't have a 100% instanced world (read: no OW) that is a near-faithful representation of the West Indies in the late 18th century, but I don't want my immersion broken by exploits of the inevitable time-discrepancies, etc. No, I would like the game to at least make an effort to give me the illusion that I am in a coherent and semi-realistic representation of the time and place that the game is set in - otherwise, what would be the purpose of having this setting in the first place? You could just as well play a game set in an imaginary galaxy with space ships, faster-than-light speed, and time travel.

Hey, make a super hardcore server with removal/changes to what you mentioned above in the direction of a realistic representation; I'd play it, but I'm afraid it would be pretty empty. Then again, it would be enjoyable to me even as a single player game, so the chance of bumping into someone like-minded once in a while would just enhance it.

(This is when admin should balance gameplay and realism in order to not only sell games to lunatics like me).

 

 

By the way, here's my first post on this forum:

On 23/2/2015 at 9:05 PM, Niels Terkildsen said:

For reference you could check how the old Build Mod (now New Horizons) has done it in the PotC game from 2003. It is obviously strictly single player, but I really enjoy the way "DirectSail" works. In that mod there are various settings - ranging from Arcade (where you travel on a world map between the islands) to the Iron Man mode (where you are forced to travel in "real time" 3D sailing between the islands - called "DirectSail" - although time is compressed and you can change the time compression between x10 , x30, x50, x100 - that is, approximately 5-6 seconds to a minute, 2 seconds to a minute, 1-1,5 seconds to a minute, etc.)

About the modes in New Horizons: Link.

[Vernon Merrill]

1 hour ago, Dharus said:

Yeah, if i recall Blackbeard hated revenge fleets too because it wasnt fair.  It broke his immersion for being a pirate....

Yes, I'm being snarky.  But seriously, first it's a game and second it's a nice shade of grey in terms of realism.  The game and players have the tools and choices available to avoid 90% of the problem stated here.  Personally i dont mind the challenge they present.

Yes.  And that tool is to never actively seek PvP unless you're in your green zone.  Nice job. 

 

[Hawkwood]

7 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Yes.  And that tool is to never actively seek PvP unless you're in your green zone.  Nice job. 

 

So you want to force players to actively seek for PvP?

[Hawkwood]

15 hours ago, Liquicity said:

2 min join timer is OK IMO, so ships in range / sight are able to join. You shouldnt be able to tag someone and locking out another ship which didnt make it into the tiny tag circle by one inch.
Anything above two min join timer runs the risk of people camping in ports to wait and hop out and jump an ongoing battle. Preparing a ship for combat took its time.

I think you should be able to choose to enter to OW if you wish to do so

I also see why 'teleporting' to port brings a few flaws with it. Free TP tickets across the map and such.

It's really tough. Devs kinda chose the supreme discipline, making an OW MMO with two (OW and Battle) instances.

As far as i understand this, gank is still possible for attacker.

So 5 ships can easily tag a lone trader, TP back to port, come back,repeat.(in another area with free TP tickets)

Dislike.

[elite92]

topic updated with another suggestion

[Dharus]

11 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Yes.  And that tool is to never actively seek PvP unless you're in your green zone.  Nice job. 

 

This attitude is just wrong.  You can use the Pickle and rarely get killed if you know what you're doing.  Sure, you can't take much more than traders but that's still PvP (especially now that traders mount cannons).

You can pick and choose your area.  Sure you could find lots of enemies at a capital area but you've increased your chances of a defensive force engagement.  Instead look for the "boring" area of a trade lane and use patience.  "Patience is a hunter's gift."

Never stay on station to long.  Every minute you sit in a spot after being seen is another minute you'll open yourself up to a larger force attacking you.

Hell, this last one can be fun... my group got hit, split, and outnumbered in two battles 6v3 and 3v1 (me) with 2v1 BR disadvantage.  The 6v3 the 6 lost 2 and ran with no losses by the 3.  Me in the 3v1 took over a hour of position maneuvers, repairs, and of course cannon work which was a very fun loss in which every minute was a chess match.  I lost my Essex in an explosive manner and lost 300k gold but it was worth it and it didn't hurt me much because I'm setup to absorb losses.

It's a game and it can be challenging because of the human elements coupled with real risk.  I like that and that's what makes me play.  If my Essex wasn't worth anything, i doubt I'd remember that fight or spend a hour battling in a seemingly hopeless battle.

[Vllad]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 8:03 AM, Dharus said:

Hell, this last one can be fun... my group got hit, split, and outnumbered in two battles 6v3 and 3v1 (me) with 2v1 BR disadvantage.  The 6v3 the 6 lost 2 and ran with no losses by the 3.  Me in the 3v1 took over a hour of position maneuvers, repairs, and of course cannon work which was a very fun loss in which every minute was a chess match.  I lost my Essex in an explosive manner and lost 300k gold but it was worth it and it didn't hurt me much because I'm setup to absorb losses.

 

Most captains will not listen Dhar. They simply don't get that you don't need numbers or BR to get some kills while being outnumbered. At this point I don't think its because they aren't quality gamers. I just don't think they see enough strategic gaming from players they can emulate. I have come to the conclusion that most gamers don't experiment and find their own strategies to compensate for things like unbalanced BR fights or revenge fleets. 

Instead of finding ways to use game mechanics in their favor they just imitate what they see others do. Mostly this means running away since they have seen that succeed occasionally. I really don't know why this is but if they aren't directly showed success they simply will never discover it on their own. 

Dhar, you and I have discussed strategies for years about multiple games and have a separate Purge board to cover what to do in fights when it is 3v6. This gives us the ability to adapt when we play. I just don't think the majority of players care or take their gaming to the level we do. Instead of learning to adapt to the environment they ask the developers to change the game to provide them the success they can't discover on their own. The irony is the developers have already given it to them. 

 

 

[Lataffiole]

Guys

we all know that there is something broken in the system of impossibility to find small combat or 1vs1 or just find a way to limite the revenge fleet effectiveness.

For me there is different PVP players and  there is the solo one and the gankers.

there for i propose to differents  cooldown invisibility and reenforcement timer if you gank or if you engage with the same Br or below  on a 1vs1 fight. 

I dont see the point to continue treat all player the same way 

[Daguse]

On 6/17/2017 at 9:48 AM, Liquicity said:

IRL why would a captain sail/escape to a hostile port?
After an engagement it would most likely sail back to a friendly port to re-fill supplies etc., without having to deal with fallout constitutions.
We had that feature before but it got removed, most likely to please the average player, being salty about him loosing a ship to someone, so he gets a chance to take revenge on him. *Realistic and Hardcore*.. yea right.
It's a shame, but I guess devs do what they have to to keep the money flowing

sidenote:
What about an invis timer of 45 sec, and an increased OW speed of 150% during the invis time? (aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail at)
I dare you to come at me and say "oooh but that's not realistic!!" - Come on - OW speed is already messed up, Fallout Constitutions being able to camp on battle positions - Doesn't matter anymore at this point. If you give one side a massive speed boost, might aswell give the guys in battle something similar, and a fair chance of evading the teleport ships.
Would basically be the suggestion where you spawn in a certain range of where the initial battle was. Gives the players a fair chance of getting away but at the same time avoids any exploits we had with 'exit to nearest port'.

Picture + idea by @Cecil Selous
Great proposal IMO, but from my understanding not going to be implemented due to the possibility of spawning in land, and that taking too much effort to make it work properly.

Of course would have to see if that needs to be tweaked for outlaw battles, for obvious reasons.

@admin

Best idea I've seen.... So why the hell did you give me crap all day for basically the same idea? 

[Ole Pinelle]

I think the main problem remains the limited number of players in OW to find fast PvP 

The OP wants the fastest way to PvP/gank someone and finds this way in sailing directly close the enemy capital. This causes the problem that he will not find a 1vs1 only a one vs many. If he now can find some victims in an area which is less populated, he will not face the problem one vs many and the revenge fleet issue is no issue at all. 

In a flight sim PvP game for example, everybody would accept, that he will face many enemies, if he gets engaged in fight close to the other teams homebase and that he will not survive the fight, if engages so close. Why should it be possible in NA I don´t know? There were signal stations around the coast, messages could be signaled via signal mast from ship to ship along a chain far over the horizon and a sea battle, didn't happen that suddenly as it happens in NA, were even the battle instance is heavily accelerated. 

So if I accept, that I will not survive an engagement close to a hostile population, I can go and fight there and enjoy. If I don´t want to face a superiority in numbers, then I go hunting somewhere else. The problem is now, that this takes significantly longer to find a battle off the beaten path and to think out of the box, due to low numbers on the server amid the shrunken map scale. In most areas of the map, the next port is always near by - not in reality many hours or days away. So the timespan to find some prey open is short in NA which complicates it. 

I can accept that it takes time to hunt - in flight PvP simulations you might circle your CAP for 2 hours and nothing happens before you return home, but you did your part and blocked an area for your team. If I want fast PvP just to PewPew I would either ask in global chat to meet someone like minded and hope that he is honorable or I would wait for the Fast-PvP-button, we had 2 years ago and which is expected to return with Legends?

Maybe until we have that button, the impatient players get a an area on the map, some far off island, to which they can teleport and PewPew all day long. Or for the time in between, increase the battle join timer a bit (30secs) and increase the invisibility time a minute as workaround, hoping this does not open another can of worms. IMO this is still a problem of impatient players wanting fast PvP (no offense, I would love a fast PvP button, since for me it is currently impossible to play PvP at all since I have rarely more than 60min sparetime available and do not even need to start looking for PvP. Only when I am on leave or holiday, or wife is away  , but for my personal approach is OW more about sailing, hunting and building, so I am missing any connection to real history and realism of the Age Of Sail more) to and there more pressing issues with the game. 

Anyhow I think the OW needs mechanics escpecailly built around the gank-fleet issue, since it is an issue, which is mainly caused by short distances between capitals and the time it takes to hunt off these capitals, where a gank fleet is less likely to be granted.

[TommyShelby]

Ole there is a huge difference between the way a flight sim works and the way NA works. 

In a flight sim there is no instanced battles, everyone is always moving at the same "time compression".

In NA we have instanced battles and OW time compression is 75x higher than in battles.

This is what creates the revenge fleet issue because in battle you travel 1 mile in 1 minute bit on the OW you travel 75 miles in 1 minutes.. 

(Numbers are arbitrary).

Furthermore we have TS, national chat etc which we can use to call for help.

Its a very bad cocktail for PvP... I had 2 fights near la mona (Freetown in "danish waterd"), 10-15 swedes tried to revenge gank me both times. So it happens far away from capitals too

 

 

[Vllad]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 5:37 PM, Lataffiole said:

 

we all know that there is something broken in the system of impossibility to find small combat or 1vs1 or just find a way to limite the revenge fleet effectiveness.

 

This is the core problem right here to everyone who complains about revenge fleets. It isn't the system that is broken it is the players that are broken.

This isn't 1v1 game so stop trying to make it one. Feel free to try and solo in it, some people are actually good at it however NA is an MMO (as in multi player) nation vs nation game. I bring my 20 guys you bring your 30 guys and we fight it out. Open water, PB's whatever.

You guys are bringing rocks to a gunfight and are complaining you are getting whipped. Stop showing up with rocks!

Revenge fleets don't need to be fixed. There is a simple solution for them. Bring more players! I am completely baffled by the audience playing NA, I can only assume they have never played any RvR MMO's like Shattered Galaxy, DAOC, Warhammer or Shadowbane.  

[Hethwill]

Revenge Fleets equals spawn camping on FPS equals Airfield vulturing in flight sims.

( safe spawns the act as safe sniping areas and flight simmers run back to AF if ack ack is too strong )

Have yet to see a definite solution for those.

[TommyShelby]

6 minutes ago, Vllad said:

This is the core problem right here to everyone who complains about revenge fleets. It isn't the system that is broken it is the players that are broken.

This isn't 1v1 game so stop trying to make it one. Feel free to try and solo in it, some people are actually good at it however NA is an MMO (as in multi player) nation vs nation game. I bring my 20 guys you bring your 30 guys and we fight it out. Open water, PB's whatever.

You guys are bringing rocks to a gunfight and are complaining you are getting whipped. Stop showing up with rocks!

Revenge fleets don't need to be fixed. There is a simple solution for them. Bring more players! I am completely baffled by the audience playing NA, I can only assume they have never played any RvR MMO's like Shattered Galaxy, DAOC, Warhammer or Shadowbane.  

Hmmm this is actually not the problem. Finding good pvp fights solo or in small groups is not the problem. 

The problem is what happens after.

Now as an avid OW PvPer (who doesn't participate in RvR because I'm not interested in it) I don't come here saying that the RvR players need to change their playstyle. However that is exactly what you are doing.

We always focused on OW PvP and 90% of the time that hasn't been a problem. However because of ppl like yourself there is hardly room for us in NA anymore. And personally I find that pretty ironic considering that the OW PvPers  (small group and solo) have been around much longer than a big part of the RvR focused players.

I ask you this however, why is there not room for both kinds of players? To me it sounds like your saying this game is a pure RvR game and that my type of player isn't welcome anymore... 

[Liq]

24 minutes ago, Vllad said:

This is the core problem right here to everyone who complains about revenge fleets. It isn't the system that is broken it is the players that are broken.

This isn't 1v1 game so stop trying to make it one. Feel free to try and solo in it, some people are actually good at it however NA is an MMO (as in multi player) nation vs nation game. I bring my 20 guys you bring your 30 guys and we fight it out. Open water, PB's whatever.

You guys are bringing rocks to a gunfight and are complaining you are getting whipped. Stop showing up with rocks!

Revenge fleets don't need to be fixed. There is a simple solution for them. Bring more players! I am completely baffled by the audience playing NA, I can only assume they have never played any RvR MMO's like Shattered Galaxy, DAOC, Warhammer or Shadowbane.  

You think Port Battles is all what happened back in the day of the age of sail? No Frigate engagements? Think again.

"Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history"

 

So your advice to the Java IRL would have been to call in for more mates to teleport in to finish off the Constitution, right?

 

You dont HAVE to participate in RvR in an MMO if you're not interested in it. Some just find it lame.

 

Quote

"You guys are bringing rocks to a gunfight and are complaining you are getting whipped. Stop showing up with rocks!"

We show up with what we like to sail, and have good battles versus people also sailing what they want to. What happens after a battle is the result of having two dimensions, OW and Battle instances, and that not being thought through. 
You cannot, in a sandbox game, tell players what they MUST do.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Liquicity