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Trying to solve revenge fleet problem


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50 minutes ago, elite92 said:

forced to play in a privateer or forced to play with a big clan?

no, thx , i will wait arena

 

33 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Lol. It doesn't help that your in a 15knt Reno, Surp, or Snow. (Tried and tested). 

The enemy will bring 5+ 15knt Surps, atleast 1 or 2 15knt Reno's. Its idiot proof, you cannot escape this unless your in a Fore-Aft Vessel (And even then you might not be able to get away if they have any clue on how to Revenge fleet properly. 

You know, i'm starting to get really tired of this whole Arena game thing. Elite, like myself and a lot of others, prefer to fight outnumbered. We love the OW gameplay, why else would we have several thousand hours in Naval Action?... 
 

 

 

I dont think you can read.

ELITE92 said....

"no, thx , i will wait arena"

 

And Tommy is right the problems is everyone has the same top speed ships.  

34 minutes ago, SeaHyena said:

If a revenge fleet knows what they are doing, they can catch anything. Surround you from every side, spawn right beside you and chain you down or knock a mast over. 

 

LOL not likely unless I screw up.

Look I am not disagreeing that revenge fleets are not an issue.  BUT you have to learn to be Sempre Gumbi and stay flexible.    I am sure it is a bigger problem on the EU server than on the Global server.  There has been several dozen if not hundred suggestions on how to fix, or alleviate the issue but unless the @admin does something it wont change.

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2 minutes ago, Hodo said:

I dont think you can read.

ELITE92 said....

"no, thx , i will wait arena"

I don't think you get it. 

If Elite just wanted an Arena game i'm sure he wouldn't be spending his time talking about the OW game.. 
There is a reason why Elite says that he will wait for Arena. 

And yes, it will not change unless @admin does something. But Admin told us to speak up if we think its bad for the game. So here we are, speaking up.

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10 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

I don't think you get it. 

If Elite just wanted an Arena game i'm sure he wouldn't be spending his time talking about the OW game.. 
There is a reason why Elite says that he will wait for Arena. 

And yes, it will not change unless @admin does something. But Admin told us to speak up if we think its bad for the game. So here we are, speaking up.

He did, but he has yet to pipe up and say anything one way or another.  

In the testbed we had 60sec invisibility which was good.  But couldnt test it with revenge fleets because of low numbers or players.   Now that we have more than 10 people online we cant test it because he wont put it back.  

There has been several good options.  And to be honest I think most of them would work at fixing the problem.   

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1 hour ago, TommyShelby said:

Now i have a question. What do you mean when you say "adapt and use them appropriately". (I will not agree but i'm curious as to why you think so)

I will give you some examples of how my clan uses revenge fleets.

Example 1:

Instead of looking for PVP we send out what we call the jack rabbit. They pick a fight and jump someone solo. They give the X/Y coordinates and proceed with their solo fight. The rest of our fleet sits out of site somewhere while we wait for the revenge fleet to stack up. We sometimes jump it while they wait or just wait for the jack rabbit to bring the revenge fleet to us.

 

Example 2:

We were out numbered 13 to 8 in Haiti. We sent the jack rabbit in to clip a solo captain. The other 12 enemy set up outside that fight. While they surround their target we send another two to split the revenge fleet while the 6 that were left took on 7. We killed 7 lost 1 then moved over to camp those still in the battle. By forcing them to create a revenge fleet to begin with 8 ships sunk 13 in a series of 3 fights and only lost 1. (Forcing your enemy to use revenge fleets is how a smaller fleet beats a bigger one) Effective revenge fleets have severe weaknesses.

 

Example 3:

4 of us French were fighting Dutch, 9 Dutch ships show up. One of us gets caught and 3 French pretend to run away. 3 of the 9 Dutch ships go into the battle to kill our mate that was caught. The other 6 Dutch ships begin to circle the guy caught instead of pursuing us. We give them time to set up the revenge fleet then turn around and hit again. Now is it 3 on 6 and a more even fight. We sink 2 before the other 4 run for it. Our mate who originally got caught must keep the fight going as long as possible so when we beat the main group we can now turn and camp those left in the combat. In the end we lose a Frigate, they lose a Trinc and Surprise. If we fought them in a straight up 4 v 9 the results are probably different.

 

In Summary:

Revenge fleets are weak since they are spread out, easy to split and given certain wind conditions can't protect everyone. They give a smaller force the ability to kill a bigger one and most importantly THEY ARE ALL SITTING STILL! Revenge fleets are predictable and only effective in certain circumstances. Once you understand that they are easy to defeat. Hey sometimes a revenge fleet is 25 ships and if you only have 3 well... you didn't bring enough fire power to deal with it. The only way for a revenge fleet to counter the tactics above is to clump up at which point anyone being camped can easily get away which defeats the whole purpose of a revenge fleet to begin with.

 

My entire point is my clan of 15 people has learned to use the mechanics we are given to kill our enemies with good effect. Revenge fleets are the primary source of PVP in OW in this game because it is the one time people come out to fight other than to grind contention. If the bunch of knuckleheads in my clan can figure out how use players predictable behavior to beat them then smarter people than us certainly have come up with more innovative idea's on how to counter this tactic. 

Revenge fleets are a tactic, use other tactics to defeat them. Asking developers to dumb down the game in the absence of any thought of how players can deal with these things directly is worse not better for NA.   

Edited by Vllad
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I'm glad your clan of 15 can deAl with it lol.

My clan of 10, usually 2-5 online, can't.  

So again. We are forced to grow our clan, join a bigger clan, sail privateers and lynx' or look for pvp in places where there is no players... :)

But it's fine. I just won't play untill something is done about revenge fleets. Clearly the small group/solo player isn't welcome here anymore even though we've been around longer than most people :)

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3 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

I'm glad your clan of 15 can deAl with it lol.

My clan of 10, usually 2-5 online, can't.  

So again. We are forced to grow our clan, join a bigger clan, sail privateers and lynx' or look for pvp in places where there is no players... :)

But it's fine. I just won't play untill something is done about revenge fleets. Clearly the small group/solo player isn't welcome here anymore even though we've been around longer than most people :)

No we are not welcome... but it doesnt matter. plenty of good games out there - the worst part  is that they screwed the product I payed for...

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27 minutes ago, Vllad said:

 Asking developers to dumb down the game in the absence of any thought of how players can deal with these things directly is worse not better for NA.   

Asking developers to keep Revenge Fleets (Well, battle camping revenge fleets) is exactly that, dumbing down the game. 

Hunting in OW actually requires you to be aware of your surroundings (Enemy ships, Wind, Land Masses), it requires you to think. 

Sitting outside a battle with 10-20 ships doesn't even require a brain. 

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2 hours ago, Vllad said:

Revenge fleets have existed as long as I have been playing this game a year ago February. They will always exist as long as we have instance combat. They are actually a good thing for RvR and PVP as long as you adapt and use them appropriately.

Not until most recent big patch were you held hostage to the game with no option (even if it was a gameplay blocking option) to avoid instance camping exploiters.  This is not just about "revenge fleets" and you are just as likely, even more likely, to get hello kittyed if you make a legit escape (or maybe even win) against a much superior force.  This has driven a large number of players from the game and OW PvP is now in terminal decline (thus the voices of PvE port huggers are coming to dominate forums).  This is not a "I wish this was improved or tweaked" issue.  When it happens to you, you uninstall and walk away from the game. No one will submit to a game that holds them hostage after the actual experience.

Edited by akd
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28 minutes ago, fox2run said:

The basic problems is that pvp cost too much preparation. Make it cheaper or more rewarding then revenge fleets wouldnt be such a problem.

It does not cost to much preparation, so dont use that excuse.  

I dont know how many store bought ships I have sunk while out and about PVPing.  Even I have used them and still use them on occasions.  

If you cant afford to sail it then you shouldnt use it.  

32 minutes ago, Vllad said:

I will give you some examples of how my clan uses revenge fleets.

<snip for length>

Revenge fleets are a tactic, use other tactics to defeat them. Asking developers to dumb down the game in the absence of any thought of how players can deal with these things directly is worse not better for NA.   

Now that's

Think-outside-the-box.png

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Vllad has perfectly described the snowballing aspect of shit gameplay.   A few enjoy exploiting the exploits and seeing how far they can push shit gameplay, but most just leave.  Next he will tell us how he and his clan use the classic Age of Sail tactic of hiding in port to win, win, win.

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3 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

So again. We are forced to grow our clan, join a bigger clan, sail privateers and lynx' or look for pvp in places where there is no players... :)

But it's fine. I just won't play untill something is done about revenge fleets. Clearly the small group/solo player isn't welcome here anymore even though we've been around longer than most people :)

You aren't forced into bigger clans. Learn to work with other clans in your nation. Actually be part of the nation! That 8 on 13 fight I explained above was with 3 different clans in the same nation. Purge, Bork and WO. This is very simple for everyone.

That is a shame you have decided not to play but lets get down to the crux of what revenge fleets generally represent. Revenge fleets are multi player tactics. Basically you are saying that you don't want any group bigger than your group to force you to fight unless it meets certain very specific requirements. You are basically saying to all players in NA that while yes this is a mutli-player game you don't want multi player components to actually BE in the game.

You are basically saying that if you sail to my nations home waters and kill a trader that it is a bad thing for my nation to use 10 guys to squash you. I say not only is it a good thing but it is healthy for the game. You want to encourage cooperative play in a multi player game not try to convince developers to remove cooperative play. Otherwise just remove the whole nation/clan/team concepts. 

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15 minutes ago, akd said:

  Next he will tell us how he and his clan use the classic Age of Sail tactic of hiding in port to win, win, win.

I don't give a two hoots about realism and Age of Sail crap. My boat is no different than driving an Ogre in EQ, a Centaur Barbarian in Shadowbane or manually towing a 10 ton AT gun in WWII on-line. Having realism in a computer game is living in the land of unicorns and lollypops. It just doesn't exist and it is absolutely moronic to expect it.  

I play games based on the set of rules the developers give us and learn to beat my enemy with the rules I am given.

I am only suggesting that players learn to tell the difference between game tactics and game design.

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1 hour ago, Vllad said:

Revenge fleets are a tactic, use other tactics to defeat them. Asking developers to dumb down the game in the absence of any thought of how players can deal with these things directly is worse not better for NA.   

I really enjoyed this post, nice job and nice tactics. Good gameplay mechanics encourage such thinking and actions and lead to longterm enjoyment.

For my part, my tactic for dealing with revenge fleets is to use a small, fast and agile ship, and to keep moving constantly in the OW while hunting player traders (which is, for me, my favorite thing in Naval Action). The enemy gets glimpses of me along their coast, but their efforts to intercept are usually quite futile... I rarely get caught in a tag circle, let alone get caught in a battle.

When I find my prey (player trader), I have my routine (tag, chain, ball, grape, board) down to a pretty polished system that allows me to get my work done quickly, in 10min or less, so far faster than a revenge fleet can get to me. Then I have the excitement of trying to stay out of sight while I make off with my prize.. this is the most stressful but also, in many ways, the most fun part. I know they are out to get me - can they find me before I reach safety? It's good times.

So, that is another approach, which works for me as a solo player. I don't mind sailing small ships, it's what I've always done, and it's a tremendously exciting and rewarding (in terms of gameplay experience) to be a hunter "behind enemy lines." That playstyle - my playstyle - is better served by the current build's mechanics than I think it's ever been before. I'm having a blast and have put in over 100hrs since wipe, after having not played for over a year.

 

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29 minutes ago, Vllad said:

You aren't forced into bigger clans. Learn to work with other clans in your nation. Actually be part of the nation! That 8 on 13 fight I explained above was with 3 different clans in the same nation. Purge, Bork and WO. This is very simple for everyone.

That is a shame you have decided not to play but lets get down to the crux of what revenge fleets generally represent. Revenge fleets are multi player tactics. Basically you are saying that you don't want any group bigger than your group to force you to fight unless it meets certain very specific requirements. You are basically saying to all players in NA that while yes this is a mutli-player game you don't want multi player components to actually BE in the game.

You are basically saying that if you sail to my nations home waters and kill a trader that it is a bad thing for my nation to use 10 guys to squash you. I say not only is it a good thing but it is healthy for the game. You want to encourage cooperative play in a multi player game not try to convince developers to remove cooperative play. Otherwise just remove the whole nation/clan/team concepts. 

Battle Camping revenge fleets are lazy players wanting easy ganks. Nothing more. 

I don't enjoy playing the game with 10 or 24 other people at the same time. I mean, there is a reason why i'm in a small clan... :)

That is not what i'm saying... I'm saying that Battle Screen camping Revenge Fleets is bad for the game. 
If you can get me without sitting outside my battle you wont hear a peep from me..

 

Edited by TommyShelby
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27 minutes ago, Vllad said:

You aren't forced into bigger clans. Learn to work with other clans in your nation. Actually be part of the nation! That 8 on 13 fight I explained above was with 3 different clans in the same nation. Purge, Bork and WO. This is very simple for everyone.

That is a shame you have decided not to play but lets get down to the crux of what revenge fleets generally represent. Revenge fleets are multi player tactics. Basically you are saying that you don't want any group bigger than your group to force you to fight unless it meets certain very specific requirements. You are basically saying to all players in NA that while yes this is a mutli-player game you don't want multi player components to actually BE in the game.

You are basically saying that if you sail to my nations home waters and kill a trader that it is a bad thing for my nation to use 10 guys to squash you. I say not only is it a good thing but it is healthy for the game. You want to encourage cooperative play in a multi player game not try to convince developers to remove cooperative play. Otherwise just remove the whole nation/clan/team concepts. 

It IS bad to be able to squash them with a revenge fleet. Its not encouraging cooperative play and it discourages pvp.

Why couldnt that 10 man fleet escort the trader from the onset? Thats cooperative. Its not likely that will happen but clans who want to move a lot of valuables safely will convoy properly instead of afk hauling which gets you ganked, creating the need for a revenge fleet to clean up after. 

You are saying that an unescorted trader should be safe because revenge ganks are a deterrant to attacking him. 

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4 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Why couldnt that 10 man fleet escort the trader from the onset? Thats cooperative.  

You are saying that an unescorted trader should be safe because revenge ganks are a deterrant to attacking him. 

I agree with everything you are saying. No escort, the trader gets what he gets. I never said traders should be safe. I feel just the opposite and I believe we have more escorts now then we ever had before because they forced traders on the water. You see escorts in the form of Surprises fleeting with trade ships or when the cargo is really valuable players actually escorting them directly.  

However this topic isn't about the trader it is about what happens afterwards.

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2 hours ago, Vllad said:

I don't give a two hoots about realism and Age of Sail crap. My boat is no different than driving an Ogre in EQ, a Centaur Barbarian in Shadowbane or manually towing a 10 ton AT gun in WWII on-line. Having realism in a computer game is living in the land of unicorns and lollypops. It just doesn't exist and it is absolutely moronic to expect it.  

I play games based on the set of rules the developers give us and learn to beat my enemy with the rules I am given.

I am only suggesting that players learn to tell the difference between game tactics and game design.

I fully agree with what you say. Players have to deal - and DO deal - with the conditions they get presented. But that's exactly my problem with this basically great game at the moment: I personally would like to play a decent realistic game in the Age of Sail. An age which was dangerous and risky when you went out on the waters. But not an age, in which my (potential) victim could use modern means of communication to call for help, ending up with a fleet of friends showing up in warp driven vessels from locations far away for his support AFTER (!) the battle, of which they normally wouldn't even have taken notice - or maybe weeks later when the message reaches them that a good old buddy got attacked and sunk by some bloody privateers, although they have told him not to go out alone, but he knew better, and so on...

If I attacked him and made a mistake because I didn't spot a (revenge) fleet lying behind a corner of an island, or just had bad luck with some of his guys coming along occasionally and could revenge him because they were at/came in SIGHT (!) range - my problem! But since we here have the combination of chat/TS (which I suppose noone would be willing to give up;-) together with two different instances that take place at different speeds, I'm afraid this can only be solved by well considered balancing...

With other words: nothing against revenging per se. But only some that fit to the environment/background of this game...

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15 hours ago, Vllad said:

Example 3:

4 of us French were fighting Dutch, 9 Dutch ships show up. One of us gets caught and 3 French pretend to run away. 3 of the 9 Dutch ships go into the battle to kill our mate that was caught. The other 6 Dutch ships begin to circle the guy caught instead of pursuing us. We give them time to set up the revenge fleet then turn around and hit again. Now is it 3 on 6 and a more even fight. We sink 2 before the other 4 run for it. Our mate who originally got caught must keep the fight going as long as possible so when we beat the main group we can now turn and camp those left in the combat. In the end we lose a Frigate, they lose a Trinc and Surprise. If we fought them in a straight up 4 v 9 the results are probably different.

I was in that encounter, and it's not exactly as you describe...

I lured you into a gank with my Reno, coordinated the fleet and burned your speed-build upgraded heavy frigate.

The battle resulted in some losses because another person overruled my calls and split the fleet - pulling people out the battle to save a straggler. That straggler was not part of the pursuit force and should have been abandoned to sink in punishment. We were not compelled to split, and had we stayed together no one else would sink. 

Why do you call a custom speed build Essex (or was it Endy?) a mere "Frigate"? I barely noticed that key hidden among the boasting. Is saying "Custom Heavy Frigate" bring too much PTSD? I thought we treated you kindly after the battle, salutes and compliments. 

Points some Dutch should have learned:

- Slow ships don't bloody count. People bringing unmaxed "tanky" uselessly slow garbage heaps to an OW chase. This results in whining about being out of shooting range for the chase, and pressure to split up. 

- People, at the time, not having chase ships in multiple ports to have the gage when responding to incursions. 

- Overruling the lead in a chase and splitting forces is almost always awful

My results from that battle:

- Proved to certain ignoramuses that a Reno "with no bow chasers" can bloody well chase. 

- Achieved all main objectives: trap a Runner fleet and burn the most expensive ship.

LGIAEL3.gif

 

Edited by Tenet
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10 hours ago, Flankengott said:

I fully agree with what you say. Players have to deal - and DO deal - with the conditions they get presented. But that's exactly my problem with this basically great game at the moment: I personally would like to play a decent realistic game in the Age of Sail. An age which was dangerous and risky when you went out on the waters. But not an age, in which my (potential) victim could use modern means of communication to call for help, ending up with a fleet of friends showing up in warp driven vessels from locations far away for his support AFTER (!) the battle, of which they normally wouldn't even have taken notice - or maybe weeks later when the message reaches them that a good old buddy got attacked and sunk by some bloody privateers, although they have told him not to go out alone, but he knew better, and so on...

If I attacked him and made a mistake because I didn't spot a (revenge) fleet lying behind a corner of an island, or just had bad luck with some of his guys coming along occasionally and could revenge him because they were at/came in SIGHT (!) range - my problem! But since we here have the combination of chat/TS (which I suppose noone would be willing to give up;-) together with two different instances that take place at different speeds, I'm afraid this can only be solved by well considered balancing...

With other words: nothing against revenging per se. But only some that fit to the environment/background of this game...

so how do you deal with the alts that sit outside ports as midshipmen in basic cutters reporting what is coming in and out of port on ts to the attackers .... it works both ways

the only time it becomes unfair is when a mechanic is denied to one side ..we all have ts available we all ow warp speed available

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5 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

true mate and thats the whole problem ..its not TS or chat..its that those in the battle instance are at real time when everyone else is at warp speed

Which is exactly what we've been saying in all of the topics about this issue :P

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