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Trying to solve revenge fleet problem


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hey guys i quote myself from another topic to make this read by every1:

On 17/6/2017 at 0:23 PM, elite92 said:

i was thinking: and if instead of teleport to friendly port after u escape a battle we test a exit to port? so if u escape a battle u can decide to exit to ow as it is now or to exit to the nearest deep water port, in this way the revenge fleet will not be so sure to find u near the swords. i think its worth a test.

if u gank near the capital maybe u are dead anyway if u escape to port but its ok :) think about it:

u tag a trader of [HELLOKITTY] clan, u capture it and while u are in battle he obviusly ask for help by his clanmates, so 10 players magically teleport to outpost and exit to camp ur battle instance and cover all the directions u would take; at the battle over u decide to exit to nearest port and the revenge fleet is useless BUT u are still likely in the enemy territory and still a potential target for every1.

seems good in my mind but maybe im a tard idiot...

edit: add invisibility of 60 seconds in both way, if u choose to exit to OW and also if u choose to exit in front of the nearest deep water port so u give a chance to the poor solo player but if the revenge fleet is smart he is dead anyway but if he smarter can continue his journey towards an ally port and maybe exit to a friendly when he is closer

to simplify my suggestion: i would like to have the possibility to Tow to Port, after a battle ends. cause i think this will help sometimes against revenge fleet and it will add depth to the game

 

 

SUGGESTION N2:

and IF, at the BATTLE OVER message (or at CAN LEAVE message), we would have the possibility to LOG OFF safely? and when we log in again we found ourselves in OW without invisibilty.

problems solved:

-in this way we can remove the invisibility from the game and thus eliminate all griefing and exploit linked to it

-players who have stuff to do or have to exit from home can have a pause after a (nice and long) battle

-no magic teleports or no cloaking after the battle

-possibility to juke the revenge fleet outside the battle at least in that moment, because when u log in again u will be vulnerable in the same spot

u can still decide to continue playing in enemy territory but u should be aware of the risk , especially now without invisibility (whatisthis,Crisys?)

this safe log off obviusly shouldnt work with OUTLAW battles and PVE battles...

to me seem a good compromise between all the solutions we have now.

 

 

Edited by elite92
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IRL why would a captain sail/escape to a hostile port?
After an engagement it would most likely sail back to a friendly port to re-fill supplies etc., without having to deal with fallout constitutions.
We had that feature before but it got removed, most likely to please the average player, being salty about him loosing a ship to someone, so he gets a chance to take revenge on him. *Realistic and Hardcore*.. yea right.
It's a shame, but I guess devs do what they have to to keep the money flowing :)

sidenote:
What about an invis timer of 45 sec, and an increased OW speed of 150% during the invis time? (aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail at)
I dare you to come at me and say "oooh but that's not realistic!!" - Come on - OW speed is already messed up, Fallout Constitutions being able to camp on battle positions - Doesn't matter anymore at this point. If you give one side a massive speed boost, might aswell give the guys in battle something similar, and a fair chance of evading the teleport ships.
Would basically be the suggestion where you spawn in a certain range of where the initial battle was. Gives the players a fair chance of getting away but at the same time avoids any exploits we had with 'exit to nearest port'.

Picture + idea by @Cecil Selous
Great proposal IMO, but from my understanding not going to be implemented due to the possibility of spawning in land, and that taking too much effort to make it work properly.

idea.png

Of course would have to see if that needs to be tweaked for outlaw battles, for obvious reasons.

@admin

Edited by Liquicity
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6 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

What about an invis timer of 45 sec, and an increased OW speed of 150% during the invis time? (aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail with)
Would basically be the suggestion where you spawn in a certain range of where the initial battle was. Gives the players a fair chance of getting away but at the same time avoids any exploits we had with 'exit to nearest port'.

Real bad idea.. especially if you consider "Defensive tagging", (especially if you got ships of simmiliar speed) the one that tries to run away will pull you to battle instance very far away so he would be able to get out to OW and even have boost to run away further away from you.

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1 minute ago, Darayavahus said:

Real bad idea.. especially if you consider "Defensive tagging", (especially if you got ships of simmiliar speed) the one that tries to run away will pull you to battle instance very far away so he would be able to get out to OW and even have boost to run away further away from you.

Well then he was just faster and therefore deserves to get away?

Now we've got the tagging circles relatively close; if someone tags you with the purpose to get away from you, and he succeeds, he's faster and deserves to get away?

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7 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

IRL why would a captain sail/escape to a hostile port?
After an engagement it would most likely sail back to a friendly port to re-fill supplies etc., without having to deal with fallout constitutions.
We had that feature before but it got removed, most likely to please the average player, being salty about him loosing a ship to someone, so he gets a chance to take revenge on him. It's a shame, but I guess devs do what they have to to keep the money flowing :)

sidenote:
What about an invis timer of 45 sec, and an increased OW speed of 150% during the invis time? (aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail with)
Would basically be the suggestion where you spawn in a certain range of where the initial battle was. Gives the players a fair chance of getting away but at the same time avoids any exploits we had with 'exit to nearest port'.

i see no exploit in this feature, like the feauture "Tow To Port". If u are sure that there are no revenge fleet outside u can still exit to OW and the game will be the same as it is. BUT if u know that u killed a member of a big clan and u expect his friends to be outside and u know u will die at least with this feature u can exit to the nearest port and maybe try to survive from there; if they are smart and they calculate where u can spawn they will divide theyself and they will camp the port and the swords, but it still better to face only half of the revenge fleet isnt it?

and if u are near u national waters and u attack some1 of the same clan u can exit safely to ur port and juke the noob revenge fleet.

this feature save players near nation water but can also save pvpers in enemy water. 45 sec of invis wont save any1

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Ok... so i'm sailing 14,2 knts with few slower friends... he is 14,0... he is slower.. gets a defensive tag on me on max range, while timer runs out i get lets say 1/3 of the circles distance closer to him. Battle starts but he is still too far and has almost 100% accurate Stern Chasers while i have 80/60% accurate ones. So he gets away from battle, and my friends which were slower are waiting outside...

From what you proposed he would receive additional boost over them waiting outside. So we would never catch him.

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Just now, elite92 said:

i see no exploit in this feature, like the feauture "Tow To Port". If u are sure that there are no revenge fleet outside u can still exit to OW and the game will be the same as it is. BUT if u know that u killed a member of a big clan and u expect his friends to be outside and u know u will die at least with this feature u can exit to the nearest port and maybe try to survive from there; if they are smart and they calculate where u can spawn they will divide theyself and they will camp the port and the swords, but it still better to face only half of the revenge fleet isnt it?

and if u are near u national waters and u attack some1 of the same clan u can exit safely to ur port and juke the noob revenge fleet.

this feature save players near nation water but can also save pvpers in enemy water. 45 sec of invis wont save any1

45 sec invis won't but 1.5 * OW speed will, which simulates the spawn range of the picture above.
I'm in general just not a fan of that whole camping on battle location, using fallout ships, thingy. If you escaped, you escaped, no need to give rocketpowered ships a second chance.
Exit to port was widely used to teleport to ports without having to sail there, no intention of fighting what was inside the battle, only wanted to get a tp ticket.

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Just now, Darayavahus said:

Real bad idea.. especially if you consider "Defensive tagging", (especially if you got ships of simmiliar speed) the one that tries to run away will pull you to battle instance very far away so he would be able to get out to OW and even have boost to run away further away from you.

In my initial post about this idea I listed a few problems (there are certainly more) with this and you are right with your objection. A defense tag could be potentially to powerful. On one side there is still the instance where you first have to escape even if you defense tag and If you manage that it's ok, on the other side a bad loading time (like I often have for the first battle of the day) or a good defense tag can totally destroy your hunt. I thought about the possibility that the spawnzone(ring) is closer to the initial battle if you leave after five minutes and further away if you leave after 30 minutes. The distance increases with time. If it will be always the same large size you could also use it for save travel through the OW. And we don't want that too.

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22 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

IRL why would a captain sail/escape to a hostile port?
After an engagement it would most likely sail back to a friendly port to re-fill supplies etc., without having to deal with fallout constitutions.
We had that feature before but it got removed, most likely to please the average player, being salty about him loosing a ship to someone, so he gets a chance to take revenge on him. *Realistic and Hardcore*.. yea right.
It's a shame, but I guess devs do what they have to to keep the money flowing :)

sidenote:
What about an invis timer of 45 sec, and an increased OW speed of 150% during the invis time? (aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail at)
Would basically be the suggestion where you spawn in a certain range of where the initial battle was. Gives the players a fair chance of getting away but at the same time avoids any exploits we had with 'exit to nearest port'.

Picture + idea by @Cecil Selous
Great proposal IMO, but from my understanding not going to be implemented due to the possibility of spawning in land, and that taking too much effort to make it work properly.

idea.png

Of course would have to see if that needs to be tweaked for outlaw battles, for obvious reasons.

@admin

/ signed

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7 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

Ok... so i'm sailing 14,2 knts with few slower friends... he is 14,0... he is slower.. gets a defensive tag on me on max range, while timer runs out i get lets say 1/3 of the circles distance closer to him. Battle starts but he is still too far and has almost 100% accurate Stern Chasers while i have 80/60% accurate ones. So he gets away from battle, and my friends which were slower are waiting outside...

From what you proposed he would receive additional boost over them waiting outside. So we would never catch him.

You both would get the invis / boost

I see the problem you're mentionning; maybe tagging circle range needs to be lowered even further so you cannot effectively def-tag someone while being slower to get away anymore. 
Somewhere I read the accuracy difference between bow / stern chasers had a historical value, but not too sure on that. (remember, this game is supposed to be realistic, according to steam store page)

My main point being: if you escaped, you escaped, no need to give anyone a second chance.

Edited by Liquicity
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Anything that gives you a fair chance at escaping revenge fleets + not being griefed for several hours i'll support. 

Here is the proposal/compromise Rediii myself and a few others came up with. (Solo/Small group OW PvP'ers and RvR Guys actually had a healthy and constructive discussion about this issue)
 

On 6/14/2017 at 1:34 PM, rediii said:

@admin

So we actually found a compromise between the "safe the ganked" and "i just wanna pvp without revengefleets"

1. Expand greenzone and change battle join timer to 10 minutes in greenzone. 
- EG; I attack someone in Swedish Capitals Greenzone. Noone can join on my side but Swedes can join for 10 minutes. Plenty of time for "Swedish Coastguard" to help their friend. 
2. Outside of Greenzones 2 minute timer and Signalling Perk (Defender can have up to 1.5 BR). Signalling Perk keeps battle open for 10 minutes. 
3. you can TP to port as long as

  • You are the defender
  • You have no fleetships
  • It was not a outlaw battle
  • It was not a pve mission

Requirement for 3. is that battlescreen returns. I would propose you have 2 minute in battlescreen to decide if you want to teleport or not. You should be able to sink your fleet if you need to. You can not teleport your fleet to a outpost

 

So in case of a gank the attacker can still face a revengefleet. But if he escapes the revengefleet once he can teleport to next freeport. This also removes the griefingpotential of repeating tagging of ships

 

Does anyone spot something exploitable?

Did I forget something?

 

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5 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

Ok... so i'm sailing 14,2 knts with few slower friends... he is 14,0... he is slower.. gets a defensive tag on me on max range, while timer runs out i get lets say 1/3 of the circles distance closer to him. Battle starts but he is still too far and has almost 100% accurate Stern Chasers while i have 80/60% accurate ones. So he gets away from battle, and my friends which were slower are waiting outside...

From what you proposed he would receive additional boost over them waiting outside. So we would never catch him.

But that's the point. He would escape anyway - the 0.2 kn difference ain't going to hold up in battle as the stern chasers are far more accurate and means he can shoot chains for longer distances than and when it comes to balls he will simply wait for you to make a mistake and then jump. The players outside of battle is basically camping and shouldn't be taken into account.

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2 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Anything that gives you a fair chance at escaping revenge fleets + not being griefed for several hours i'll support. 

Here is the proposal/compromise Rediii myself and a few others came up with. (Solo/Small group OW PvP'ers and RvR Guys actually had a healthy and constructive discussion about this issue)
 

 

I could second much of it.. Except the tp to port part.. There I'd much prefer Liquis idea of 1.5* boost in invisibility timer..

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3 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

But that's the point. He would escape anyway - the 0.2 kn difference ain't going to hold up in battle as the stern chasers are far more accurate and means he can shoot chains for longer distances than and when it comes to balls he will simply wait for you to make a mistake and then jump. The players outside of battle is basically camping and shouldn't be taken into account.

So you are saying a solo Ganker can roam freely and risk nothing (if he is fast enough)?

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3 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

So you are saying a solo Ganker can roam freely and risk nothing (if he is fast enough)?

You've got a 3 minutes join timer, gives anything in range, and even Ships that were in port! a chance to join the battle.
This game is supposed to be realistic?
If no friendlies were where the battle was, why would you expect any help?

Edited by Liquicity
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Just now, Bearwall said:

I could second much of it.. Except the tp to port part.. There I'd much prefer Liquis idea of 1.5* boost in invisibility timer..

The reason why i'm not a fan of invisibility actually isn't because i don't like it. 
Its because of the people abusing it, we've tested invisibility extensively and every time there has been tons of complaints about abuse of the mechanic. 

I'm a fan of TP to port because it means no one can grief you extensively. And it makes NA more accessible to the people who doesn't always have 3-4 hours to play (They can go, have a fight, escape revenge fleet and log off). 

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1 minute ago, Liquicity said:

You've got a 3 minutes join timer, gives anything in range, and even Ships that were in port! a chance to join the battle.
This game is supposed to be realistic?
If no friendlies were wehre the battle was, why would you expect any help?

Those ships will land faaaaaaaaarrrrrrr behind, which will make them useless anyway.

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4 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

Those ships will land faaaaaaaaarrrrrrr behind, which will make them useless anyway.

Not from my experiences of 3.8k+ hours playing the game. If you see someone tagging a friendly, you can sail to the center of the crossed swords, aka center of the battle. In 3 minutes, they won't have sailed very far, probably not even out of your cannon range.

If you were in range / sight - Sure, go ahead and join the battle, as you were close.

Open battles for 90 minutes on the other hand - I think it's not needed to explain why that's nonsense :)

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5 minutes ago, Darayavahus said:

Those ships will land faaaaaaaaarrrrrrr behind, which will make them useless anyway.

Why? A 1v1 got a 1vX, nice battle is ruined for the solo player and your friend was safed.

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I would propose two things:
1. People leaving battle would receive free view mode high above Battle Instance location, with original ROE tag circle marked, and they could mark at which place they would like to have his ship placed (shallows disabled). This should prevent being spawned on land and would allow some more flexibility to run off.
2. Attacking targets that would be at the back of the ship (ROE tag circle split in two 180 degree sections) would have attack timer set to 30 seconds.

Simple

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29 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

In my initial post about this idea I listed a few problems (there are certainly more) with this and you are right with your objection. A defense tag could be potentially to powerful. On one side there is still the instance where you first have to escape even if you defense tag and If you manage that it's ok, on the other side a bad loading time (like I often have for the first battle of the day) or a good defense tag can totally destroy your hunt. I thought about the possibility that the spawnzone(ring) is closer to the initial battle if you leave after five minutes and further away if you leave after 30 minutes. The distance increases with time. If it will be always the same large size you could also use it for save travel through the OW. And we don't want that too.

any tag becomes too powerful
that's why it is so painful to unsee the BRS 

You could escape any battle before. You cannot escape a smart opponent now if you are in his home waters. 

  • attack npc - tp to home port or sit in battle screen
  • attack a pirate - tp to home port or sit in battle screen
  • join a battle or a mission - tp to home port or sit in battle screen

Now if you see the enemy and if you have numbers you know if he does make mistakes = he will sink today. 
Why should we deny this gameplay to another side? They have fun sinking people who venture into their homes to kill them
 

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So admin, you don't see any problem in the fact that "Home Defense Fleets" don't have to do anything except sit outside a battle and wait for their victim to emerge? 

I don't have a problem with being ganked in the OW, if i get ganked it means i made a mistake. 
I have a problem with the fact that the so called "Home Defense Fleets" get ganks served on a silver platter. And those "Home Defense Fleets" aren't even defending their home waters... 

Another issue here is the repeated re-tagging that can happen. Even if your faster revenge fleets can keep tagging you for as long as they want. (They will spread out in a circle and wait for you).
Is this not a problem? 

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

You could escape any battle before. You cannot escape a smart opponent now if you are in his home waters. 
 

What exactly is smart about this? And the core problem isn't limited to home waters. Offensive gankers can abuse this mechanic too and always did.

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2 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

What exactly is smart about this? And the core problem isn't limited to home waters. Offensive gankers can abuse this mechanic too and always did.

but don't they eventually get a nice and large revenge fleet vs revenge fleet battle?

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