Graping mechanics kills naval combat. Attention required

[Cecil Selous]

Honestly, I think it is not a good thing. Shooting through gunports is kind of overdone if this is really the reason of the heavy crewloss. A big part of the gunport in terms of surface area is in most cases the cannon itself. And also the gun crew isn't hugging their barrels all the time.

I don't agree with a statement, that says that a grape shot to the gun port affects the whole crew of that gun. Most will hit the gun themself, maybe ricochet and hit a few crew members. I also think that not every ball of the grape itself will hit the gunport.

So if it is that easy to hit a gunport and kill the crew on that cannon and quasi "kill" said cannon. Why is it far more difficult to do it with ball shot?  

Edited September 30, 2016 by Cecil Selous

[The Spud]

well - the question is - is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

Maybe its a bit too effective when fired at a full health hull, if its as effective as shooting sails in terms of crippeling a ship, then I would say it needs a bit of tweaking. I would imagine crew would probably notice the other ship is firing grape after the first broadside and would stay clear of cannon ports and would know it is safe when its behind cover as it can't penetrate the wood as compared to balls.

 

Maybe there should be a % of regeneration of crew over time, like people who get knocked unconcious for a while, or people who only have a small fleshwound. Most will be dead surely, but I would assume they wouldn't want to let their mates down.

 

I haven't experienced it as negative so far, but when someone told me to shoot grape when your ship was lost anyways, in an attempt to damage the enemy as much as possible, i was quite surprised how effective it was. And I could imagine like Hethwill said that some have adopted it as their primary tactic.

Edited September 30, 2016 by The Spud

[Hethwill]

well - the question is - is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

It is not a bad thing. It provides another way of resolving combat. 

 

I'd say it is the consistency of results that makes or breaks, this is black powder gunnery therefore aiming on a general direction and Pray.

Vertical stabilization tweak should add slightly more challenge though. The gun crews can manage the big guns elevations like they would a 1 pounder swivel in our game at the moment.

[maturin]

IRL grape will penetrate the thin topside barricades of most ships, unless the bulwarks there are very thick, as with Constitution and Niagara. Light vessels like the Rattlesnake (whose gundeck bulwarks are only 4' high in any case) would probably be penetrated by grape of a decent caliber all over.

[DragonfireActual]

I believe this game is very very well balanced in regards to grape. I really want to say that balls don't do near the crew/gun damage one would expect from stern raking but if a Dev wants to step in and say it's reduced effectiveness is to prevent habitual stern camping and #NavalSterncamper then I will wholeheartedly stand with the balancing act.

As for open deck boats,think about this nasty little fact. You're in your Mercury,your crew in the open. You're facing another Mercury also open decked. Both packing 24lb carronades and each lobbing roughly 24lb's of iron grape. I don't know what size grape but I'll assume 1" or 25mm thereabout. 10 guns each flank.

If my math regarding spherical size and weight is correct and at 180 ish shot per gun then we're looking at roughly 1,800 iron grape shot per volley towards your crew. You think you're gonna survive on that deck? I honestly think the Devs went light on this matter and I think it's quite well balanced for fun factor.

[Thonys]

A single grape in the middle of a combat should be HIGHLY effective.  But graping over and over should be less and less effective.  At some point those last 5 guys are going to go stand on the other side of the vessel behind a few barrels of grog that they are chugging like a champ.

 

I would also consider the option to load grape in weather deck guns alone.  It would be silly to load grape in the bottom tier of a 1st rate.  Nobody would do that and it would be rather ineffective in almost every ship they fought against.  A hundred guns graping a mercury would be a sight to behold if it ever happened.  But not very realistic.

it was actually never performed for lowerdeck guns because of and  by the ware and tare issue  of the barrels

 

only upper decks would load grape

[The Spud]

it was actually never performed for lowerdeck guns because of and  by the ware and tare issue  of the barrels

 

only upper decks would load grape

 

On that note I would love to be able to select different charges per deck (like click on deck and select grape, chain, ball). And maybe a right click on the deck to disable the firing of that deck.

[maturin]

I believe this game is very very well balanced in regards to grape. I really want to say that balls don't do near the crew/gun damage one would expect from stern raking but if a Dev wants to step in and say it's reduced effectiveness is to prevent habitual stern camping and #NavalSterncamper then I will wholeheartedly stand with the balancing act.

As for open deck boats,think about this nasty little fact. You're in your Mercury,your crew in the open. You're facing another Mercury also open decked. Both packing 24lb carronades and each lobbing roughly 24lb's of iron grape. I don't know what size grape but I'll assume 1" or 25mm thereabout. 10 guns each flank.

If my math regarding spherical size and weight is correct and at 180 ish shot per gun then we're looking at roughly 1,800 iron grape shot per volley towards your crew. You think you're gonna survive on that deck? I honestly think the Devs went light on this matter and I think it's quite well balanced for fun factor.

Again, you're describing canister shot, not grape.

[akd]

 

grapeshot of a 32 pounder, The thing ingame is grapeshot is looking like as Canister

 

 

The ingame model of the round isa canistershot, and lead sometimes to misuderstanding, canistershot is a tinbucket full of musketballs, while grape is a shot that has 6-9  ballshot of a 1-3pound sized atachet together with rings.

So whats the diffrence between the both

I don't know why he is not chiming in here, but Admin has directly stated in the past that grapeshot in game is grapeshot, not canister, despite the graphic, the shot log identifier and zero penetration. I suppose it is possible they think grapeshot is something much closer to canister.

[admin]

I don't know why he is not chiming in here, but Admin has directly stated in the past that grapeshot in game is grapeshot, not canister, despite the graphic, the shot log identifier and zero penetration. I suppose it is possible they think grapeshot is something much closer to canister.

 

 

well 

i would like to clarify

 

grape = antipersonnel shot. We decided against providing multiple types of anti-personell shots because of multiple reasons (fake features, not enough difference, clarity). Thus it does not matter if it is canister or grape or langridge or how you call it. It was an original decision from the Sea trials and if we will see the benefits of providing an extra type of antipersonnel shot we will happily to it.

 

But from the game perspective we are not sure if 3 types of antipersonnel shot will drastically improve the gameplay. Some of them will be more powerful than the others and players will only use the most powerful one.

[maturin]

In which case it's rather hard to critique the performance, except from a balance perspective.

 

 

 

I'm really suspicious of claims that grape is the be-all, end-all weapon right now. It seems like most of the playerbase is happily going about its cannonball-shooting business, while only a few people are up in arms about OP yardarm-to-yardarm grape broadsides. Can we see some good videos of this tactic in action? Because I'm inclined to believe that there only a few grapeshot masters out there, and that they've left some traumatized victims in their wake. When most mere mortals try to use grape, they end up wasting the whole broadside.

 

We didn't see any 'grapeshot-vs-intact-hull' behavior in the tournament, did we? And that's an excellent acid test for effective tactics.

[admin]

 

 

 

I'm really suspicious of claims that grape is the be-all, end-all weapon right now. It seems like most of the playerbase is happily going about its cannonball-shooting business, while only a few people are up in arms about OP yardarm-to-yardarm grape broadsides. Can we see some good videos of this tactic in action? Because I'm inclined to believe that there only a few grapeshot masters out there, and that they've left some traumatized victims in their wake. When most mere mortals try to use grape, they end up wasting the whole broadside.

 

We didn't see any 'grapeshot-vs-intact-hull' behavior in the tournament, did we? And that's an excellent acid test for effective tactics.

 

 

You cannot recover crew. Thats the main game factor. You can recover some sails, or some integrity of planking. But you cannot recover crew. 

[Koltes]

You cannot recover crew. Thats the main game factor. You can recover some sails, or some integrity of planking. But you cannot recover crew. 

 

Why not? Most of crew injuries were not fatal and after surgeon treatment some number of crew would get back to fight. Seems to be very logical and realistic.

Also it seems very realistic that crew would get ready for graping and with the right leadership take defensive position to minimize loses. Thus new officer officer perk could be introduced as well as Brace command (like pressing R not just switches side off, but makes crew to brace). Charismatic boatswain upgrade would get even more value because it will allow crew to hide faster.

 

We are not proposing to change any grape mechanics such as damage dealing, penetration etc. But rather give the defender more tools to defend

[Ragor]

First time I dare to have an opinion on this heated topic.

 

Just for the record, I am on the side of the folks which suggested, that the first grape does more damage then 'as is at the moment', but the 2nd+ grape does significant less grape damage since the sailor-minions are prepared and in cover. Will be reset once the 'graper' has at least fired one regular salvo in between.

 

What about a 'duck & cover' order, which lowers grape damage but slows 'setting sails' down by for example 70% and loading cannons by 50%?

[Fuzzyhead12]

I believe this game is very very well balanced in regards to grape. I really want to say that balls don't do near the crew/gun damage one would expect from stern raking but if a Dev wants to step in and say it's reduced effectiveness is to prevent habitual stern camping and #NavalSterncamper then I will wholeheartedly stand with the balancing act.

As for open deck boats,think about this nasty little fact. You're in your Mercury,your crew in the open. You're facing another Mercury also open decked. Both packing 24lb carronades and each lobbing roughly 24lb's of iron grape. I don't know what size grape but I'll assume 1" or 25mm thereabout. 10 guns each flank.

If my math regarding spherical size and weight is correct and at 180 ish shot per gun then we're looking at roughly 1,800 iron grape shot per volley towards your crew. You think you're gonna survive on that deck? I honestly think the Devs went light on this matter and I think it's quite well balanced for fun factor.

you were thinking here about canister, Grape is 6-9 ballshot of a low calibe housed in a basket or similer. routghly 1-3pound size of each ball depending on the gun 

[Loco Bandito]

Link please screens or videos about graping OP in fullarmor. I never see this in fights.

I don't have screenshots or vids but I did F11 it and my ship was 95% full armor with 28 crew left.

[Loco Bandito]

In which case it's rather hard to critique the performance, except from a balance perspective.

I'm really suspicious of claims that grape is the be-all, end-all weapon right now. It seems like most of the playerbase is happily going about its cannonball-shooting business, while only a few people are up in arms about OP yardarm-to-yardarm grape broadsides. Can we see some good videos of this tactic in action? Because I'm inclined to believe that there only a few grapeshot masters out there, and that they've left some traumatized victims in their wake. When most mere mortals try to use grape, they end up wasting the whole broadside.

We didn't see any 'grapeshot-vs-intact-hull' behavior in the tournament, did we? And that's an excellent acid test for effective tactics.

I've seen it used in a port battle the enemy all had grape loaded and gave us a pre warning get ready for the gang grape. Lol. It is way too effective at the moment. To counter it I now use longs and keep distance.

[Salty Dog.]

This is a separate problem,  bigger imo ... there are indeed many examples of lesser boats taking big ones...and those are couonted as historical feats,,, but  in the current state of the game it seems the rule more than the exception than a unescorted  SoL is the underdog in those battles with even players ....and (at least to me) this seems weird

a SHIP OF THE LINE is a underdog if sailing alone and meeting a faster, more maneuverable frigate.  That is why SHIPS OF THE LINE did not generally sail alone.  Hence the name SHIP OF THE LINE.  You cannot form a "line" by yourself.  

 

SOL are not intended to be sailed solo, that is the role of the frigates.  Thats is why they built frigates.  SOL's SHOULD be taken/sunk if sailed alone and meeting a frigate.  You are not sailing a SOL in the role the SOL was designed to sail.

[Enraged Ewok]

I can confirm what you are saying.  In our fight in Pedro Cay the other night I got graped a few times and took my crew from 145 down to 62 in a matter of minutes without losing much if any armor on my ship. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be more of an issue with shallow water ships. All of them either have open decks with little in the way of bulwarks save a couple (and heel can expose the crew behind the bulwarks for graping), or upper decks with rails and no bulwarks in the heavy rattle's case. I can't recall a time I've had a similar issue with a 5th rate ship or higher, except when my armor was at <20% and my opponents were graping to prep me for a boarding.

[DragonfireActual]

While I appreciate the clarity in the matter of grape vs canister I think this might still be largely pointless as we change the effectiveness from reducing large numbers of crew nearer the side taking fire to fewer but on both sides of the gun deck,numbers likely being near the same.

 

Something I have to ask. The crew are represented by hit boxes are they not? Are those boxes dynamic? Do they vanish as they're hit? Do they remain and continue to count each hit til the crew count reads 0?

Edited September 30, 2016 by DragonfireActual

[maturin]

 

a SHIP OF THE LINE is a underdog if sailing alone and meeting a faster, more maneuverable frigate.  That is why SHIPS OF THE LINE did not generally sail alone.  Hence the name SHIP OF THE LINE.  You cannot form a "line" by yourself.  

 

SOL are not intended to be sailed solo, that is the role of the frigates.  Thats is why they built frigates.  SOL's SHOULD be taken/sunk if sailed alone and meeting a frigate.  You are not sailing a SOL in the role the SOL was designed to sail.

Incorrect.

 

4th Rates and 3rd Rates sailed along all the time, and would easily trash any frigate they came across.

 

 

No frigate ever carried out an attack against a lone ship of the line, except in a handful of cases where the larger ship was already disabled by rigging damage.

[admin]

Why not? Most of crew injuries were not fatal and after surgeon treatment some number of crew would get back to fight. 

 

 

After the fight yes. And it is already provided by a doctor perk - most of your casualties come back to fight. 

But we don't think crew should come back during battle itself. 

[admin]

That was my perception but Maturin has stated this was not the case in fact SOLs sailed all the on there own all the time frigates were not a threat in reality to a SOL unlike in Naval Action.

 

Edit, I type too slow 

 

In reality Lineships did not even fire at frigates unless fired upon - even in heated engagements.. It was a honored tradition in all navies. And lineships sailed alone from time to time. (but mostly 3rd rates). 

 

What is probably wrong and needs improvement  is 3rd 4th rates performances. They should turn better and maybe even sail better. 

I can confirm what you are saying.  In our fight in Pedro Cay the other night I got graped a few times and took my crew from 145 down to 62 in a matter of minutes without losing much if any armor on my ship. 

ships?

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

After the fight yes. And it is already provided by a doctor perk - most of your casualties come back to fight. 

But we don't think crew should come back during battle itself. 

 

Agreed - it wasn't common for crew to come back up from the surgeon in large numbers.  I've seen a few mentions of officers having something bandaged up and limping back up to the quarterdeck, but this was an era of either dosing them up on laudanum and lopping things off or getting them drunk and lopping things off (or both).  Given also that there was only a single surgeon on most frigates, and maybe three or four on a 1st rate (along with their mates), you also didn't have a high throughput for treatment - there were usually injured sailors lying around everywhere belowdecks waiting for treatment.

 

Crew coming back in large numbers during the fight doesn't make sense from a historical standpoint.  From a gameplay standpoint - I don't know.

[maturin]

 

 

Crew coming back in large numbers during the fight doesn't make sense from a historical standpoint.

Taking down a whole crew with grapeshot doesn't make sense either.

 

The mechanics can be tweaked for any outcome: it just depends what we decide is "really" happening on deck. Whether we're really shooting grape or canister, whether the numbers of lost crew really represent dead, wounded, or just panicked men.