Graping mechanics kills naval combat. Attention required

[Cecil Selous]

the bigger question is, did the Captains and Comander had the knowlege we achieved due the severel hundred of gamehours? some of us gamers know and predict certain movement heels and so on. We load grape on a trink hope she depowers to late and shows us our weatherdeck and we sweep it, Because we know it is possible, we know the heelproblem and we know it because we learned it after several defeats.

 

A Comander had only one live, they would have been able to achieve similer actions if they are fast thinking and knows the effectifness of said ammo, but would they take the risk of shooting grape on the weatherdeck, or go for ballshot depends on the Commander, the possebilities are to much to consider it.

 

 

You have a point.

Another thing is that people ingame mostly shoot at each other while still making 10+ knts, every sail to be found is set and heeling is the norm.

Battle sails ftw if there wasn't the threat of floating barracks.

[IndianaGeoff]

A single grape in the middle of a combat should be HIGHLY effective.  But graping over and over should be less and less effective.  At some point those last 5 guys are going to go stand on the other side of the vessel behind a few barrels of grog that they are chugging like a champ.

 

I would also consider the option to load grape in weather deck guns alone.  It would be silly to load grape in the bottom tier of a 1st rate.  Nobody would do that and it would be rather ineffective in almost every ship they fought against.  A hundred guns graping a mercury would be a sight to behold if it ever happened.  But not very realistic.

Edited September 28, 2016 by IndianaGeoff

[SheepDip]

A single grape in the middle of a combat should be HIGHLY effective.  But graping over and over should be less and less effective.  At some point those last 5 guys are going to go stand on the other side of the vessel behind a few barrels of grog that they are chugging like a champ.

 

I would also consider the option to load grape in weather deck guns alone.  It would be silly to load grape in the bottom tier of a 1st rate.  Nobody would do that and it would be rather ineffective in almost every ship they fought against.  A hundred guns graping a mercury would be a sight to behold if it ever happened.  But not very realistic.

That was PRICELESS !  One for the ages .....

[Koltes]

intresting but very subjective, usually Grape on full amor can only kill crew on the weatherdeck and behind the gunpors, you can infact hide and navigate your ship to keep the grape loss at bay. also ballshots are smometimes more effective to kill crew then grape, like ballracking a bellona with a small ship is more effective then graping it.

 

on the otherhand, onedeck ships, like niagara, the cutter and privateer, can be decrewd in one salvo of grabe by a similer sized oponent. But the privateer is a front and aft rigged ship and can easily escape after such hit, cutter too, niagara can use its carronades before getting into grape range.

 

 

Grape range, compared to ball is very short and on longer distances fairly ineffective, however ive had severel occasion where my deck was sniped with grape, thats skill not a broken mechanic.

Is grape an allrounder ship killer, No

 

if grape is effecteve depends, on the ship you shoot at, and the ship you sit in. You have a greater chance of cleanin the weatherdeck of a enemyship if your guns are in a higher position, and the enemy has an armend weatherdeck.

some frigates are fairly sensible about grape, the Cherubin for excample is easy to get graped, but requires a small crew to be effective in battel.

 

Grape is a varible ammo if you know how to use it, but if the enemy knows how to keep away of you, like chaining your sails, then you will loose the fight then you only use grape.

 

Conclution, use the right ammo for the right ship and situation and you will win.

 

Simplicity is hardly subjective mate. I don't think I could have been more precise with comparisons of both damage dealing mechanics without being too complicated.

As per image below.

The guy who graped the heavy rattler was using minimal skill (even if he had any he didn't show). All he wanted to do is point his ship at me, approach to get on either side and grape. Every time you trying to out maneuver you get graped.

So yeah this battle was won because of better skill of the heavy rattler captain, but it was done with such absurd difficulty that it only proves the point how OP graping is. There is just no protection from it.

 

Re: killing crew on top decks

Well there are plenty of ships that only have top decks. Also most of the other multi decked ships can still be graped to a stage when its just impossible to manage the ship anymore.

 

 

 

Link please screens or videos about graping OP in fullarmor. I never see this in fights.

 

 

FYI, the heavy rattler started with full crew + gold hammocks

 

 

 

you can clean up the weatherdeck on some of the "Metaships" like trink then shes heel towards you, a good salvo of grape will result of something around 80 crewkills

 

Absolutely and there is really no protection from it, neither there any recovery option.

Edited September 29, 2016 by koltes

[Sir Texas Sir]

As i posted in the suggestion Barricades should give crew defense from grapping.  The problem we are seeing are folks are graping ships down broad side to broad side with little to no damage to the ship.  Mercury in shallow water is a prime example of this.  I have totaly decrewed on with my H. Rattler in about 4-5 broad sides.   With little to no damage to his armor.  That is to many crew just from passying at a distance. I have stopped using my Merc in shallow water port battles casue all folks do now is grape thm down to 40 crews.  We seen this in bigger ships too.  I can undestand rakes and such, but just passing doing a grape isn't going to kill that many crew when they have armor/stucture to hide behind.  Braceing for fire like when your in boarding.  Also some of the grapes should be blowing through and hitting the other ship if yourin a boarding if they aren't stern camping you.    

 

Yes the solution is to not get side by side and brawl any more, but that takes the fun out if it.  We aren't saying graping shouldn't be usded, it just shouldn't take all the crew down when there is no armor damage.  I mean most of the crew is prob below deck manning the guns any way.

[Fuzzyhead12]

Simplicity is hardly subjective mate. I don't think I could have been more precise with comparisons of both damage dealing mechanics without being too complicated.

As per image below.

The guy who graped the heavy rattler was using minimal skill (even if he had any he didn't show). All he wanted to do is point his ship at me, approach to get on either side and grape. Every time you trying to out maneuver you get graped.

So yeah this battle was won because of better skill of the heavy rattler captain, but it was done with such absurd difficulty that it only proves the point how OP graping is. There is just no protection from it.

 

Re: killing crew on top decks

Well there are plenty of ships that only have top decks. Also most of the other multi decked ships can still be graped to a stage when its just impossible to manage the ship anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

FYI, the heavy rattler started with full crew + gold hammocks

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely and there is really no protection from it, neither there any recovery option.

 

there are  things on a ratle i dont like, Everything overmatches her amor and the crews hitboces are glitching through the weatherceck and planking. that might be there your problem. also you are sailing the Heavy variant, this has a armed weatherdeck so its fairly easy to grape it down.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Fuzzyhead12

[Cmdr RideZ]

Happy to see another nerf grapes post.

 

I do not know if it is the tournament, and that nothing is changed before that ends.  If so, the tournaments in the future should have specific length.  If you are not there, you are out from the tournament.  OR  Devs should just change the mechanisms while the tournament is running.

 

OP grapes have been in game way too long.  Lot of testing undone as long as the tournament is stopping the development.

[themule08]

Even a poor aimed grapeshot.. mine since I have yet to find the hitbox sweet spot.. still kills 10 to 20.

[randommexi]

i think the above picture says it all.  look at the sail count on both ships.  look at the crew counts and look at the armor.  the better captain won.

 

Grape shot doesnt = auto easy win.  it can be out ranged.  he took his sails down.  got at range and sank him.

 

that doesnt mean grapeshot doesnt need a fix.  just pointing out the fact grapeshot does not equal an easy win.

[Koltes]

there are  things on a ratle i dont like, Everything overmatches her amor and the crews hitboces are glitching through the weatherceck and planking. that might be there your problem. also you are sailing the Heavy variant, this has a armed weatherdeck so its fairly easy to grape it down.

 

Sorry man, i've read it 5 times and still struggle to make any sense.

Specifically: What do you mean heavy rattle has armed weatherdeck? How does this affect current game mechanics that if your armor is full you still lose crew at a very high rate? Loosing crew cannot be recovered during the battle  while sails and armor can be. Yet its easier to deal damage to the crew.

 

Also, this is just a recent example. I had same problems in all sort of ships including 1st rates (even more so)

 

 

 

i think the above picture says it all.  look at the sail count on both ships.  look at the crew counts and look at the armor.  the better captain won.

 

Grape shot doesnt = auto easy win.  it can be out ranged.  he took his sails down.  got at range and sank him.

 

that doesnt mean grapeshot doesnt need a fix.  just pointing out the fact grapeshot does not equal an easy win.

 

Yes this is what I had to do in order to win this. Better captain won, grape doesn't mean... blah blah blah

However you missing my point mate.

The graping mechanics are just so OP that it requires a huge amount of game knowledge and skill to overcome. Not everyone is the same or at that level. The only answer to that for lots of players will be to grape in return because if you want to win you should use everything to your advantage. If Graping OP this is what you should do in order to score a win.

 

My point is that because graping has been now abused quite a lot it kills naval combat. Combat becomes very dull, boring and tiresome. Whoever grapes down first. No matter sides, no matter sailing skills etc

[Fuzzyhead12]

Sorry man, i've read it 5 times and still struggle to make any sense.

Specifically: What do you mean heavy rattle has armed weatherdeck? How does this affect current game mechanics that if your armor is full you still lose crew at a very high rate? Loosing crew cannot be recovered during the battle  while sails and armor can be. Yet its easier to deal damage to the crew.

 

Also, this is just a recent example. I had same problems in all sort of ships including 1st rates (even more so)

 

 

 

 

Yes this is what I had to do in order to win this. Better captain won, grape doesn't mean... blah blah blah

However you missing my point mate.

The graping mechanics are just so OP that it requires a huge amount of game knowledge and skill to overcome. Not everyone is the same or at that level. The only answer to that for lots of players will be to grape in return because if you want to win you should use everything to your advantage. If Graping OP this is what you should do in order to score a win.

 

My point is that because graping has been now abused quite a lot it kills naval combat. Combat becomes very dull, boring and tiresome. Whoever grapes down first. No matter sides, no matter sailing skills etc

 

Again, an armed weatherdeck dont have any amor, you can sweep it with grape like you sweep dust with a broom, some ships have such small amor that even musketballs would punch through. Also the Rattlesnake has alot of cannons on a low length making the holes of the cannons near together, if oyu shoot grape on a enemy cannon you are able to kill the guncrew, if oyu had mediums equipped that were 5 man per gun, 10 guns per side are 50 crew in a single salvo, aim for the weatherdeck are atlest 60 crew you can take down with a good aimed shot.

 

Other ships have strenghts and weaknesses too, and armed weatherdeck can be a weakness in certain ocassion like in your picture.

[CaptVonGunn]

OMG... grapeing in NA works like grapeing in real combat.. STOP... Change it... Shessssh

[Koltes]

Again, an armed weatherdeck dont have any amor, you can sweep it with grape like you sweep dust with a broom, some ships have such small amor that even musketballs would punch through. Also the Rattlesnake has alot of cannons on a low length making the holes of the cannons near together, if oyu shoot grape on a enemy cannon you are able to kill the guncrew, if oyu had mediums equipped that were 5 man per gun, 10 guns per side are 50 crew in a single salvo, aim for the weatherdeck are atlest 60 crew you can take down with a good aimed shot.

 

Other ships have strenghts and weaknesses too, and armed weatherdeck can be a weakness in certain ocassion like in your picture.

 

Yeah I get what you mean by weatherdeck being exposed. However graping seems to do just as much damage to crew now in multi decked ships too.

Having said that my complaint is not about how easy it is to grape certain ships, but rather that there is no tools to tackle the problem.

 

Giving us the tools below (as per OP) will pretty much balance the whole thing without affecting armor / crew protection mechanics.

 

 

........

 

2. Pushing R to switch off the side cannons makes crew to stop working on that side of the ship. It should also make them leave that side for real and if that side get graped the crew loses are minimal while that side is switched off. Doesnt have to happen instantly. It takes time for crew to relocate/hide. But more crew leaving the side less you should lose.

3. Any ship (since we keeping this as historical as possible without calling this a simulator) every battle ship should have a doctor. Make a Crew Recover ala repair function that uses your consumable Medkits.

 

[CaptVonGunn]

Yeah I get what you mean by weatherdeck being exposed. However graping seems to do just as much damage to crew now in multi decked ships too.

Having said that my complaint is not about how easy it is to grape certain ships, but rather that there is no tools to tackle the problem.

 

Giving us the tools below (as per OP) will pretty much balance the whole thing without affecting armor / crew protection mechanics.

 

 Ok this I kind of agree.. But then we have the BS system that you have to remove the Stern armor in game to be effective grapeing from stern which is silly.. there wasn't any armor back there on the top 2 or 3 decks(depending on the ship).... Heck you shoot through the windows there should be NOTHING in the way the length of the deck but guns and men until you get to the fore castle

[Cpt Blackthorne]

What I dont understand is why barricades work only for boarding when they should be used to protect your crew from grapeshot while you're near enemy trying to board

[CaptVonGunn]

What I dont understand is why barricades work only for boarding when they should be used to protect your crew from grapeshot while you're near enemy trying to board

Because they are NOT on the edge of the ship.. I always though of them as being in the center of the ship between the guns. Any place else and they would interfere with the operation of the guns in combat

[themule08]

I personally think it should be coded in place for NPC ships. Because as it stands now a NPC AI ship no matter the type will fight until sunk or captured. Which makes for very unrealistic gameplay even vs players in the exact same ships. I don't know many players caught in a trader cutter, lynx or brig, who is demisted or unable to out run their opponent who is going to risk the officer loss and the crew loss just to have a good fight, without guns.

Now with that said the boarding morale is broken as hell since the last patch. Ships do not surrender until the last man is defeated, and this is frankly completely out of the scope of reality. There is no way in the nine hells will a trader cutter crew of 20men will fight 300+ men coming from an Essex 5th rate frigate, to the last man.

Last the de-masting issue. Yeah really it is kind of anti-historical when I have a better chance of sinking a ship than de-masting it.

I can take the fore mast off of a brig in a pair of passes with a Frigates 18lbers long guns. But I can shoot at it ALL day with 9lb longs on a smaller ship at that same mast.

While yes I agree with you opinion on npcs ships.. only thing is if they all surrender once getting beat on.. they can be captured way to easy.

If you make npcs ships unable to be captured then yes I agree. Which is another topic all on its self

[Fuzzyhead12]

 

grapeshot of a 32 pounder, The thing ingame is grapeshot is looking like as Canister

 

 

The ingame model of the round isa canistershot, and lead sometimes to misuderstanding, canistershot is a tinbucket full of musketballs, while grape is a shot that has 6-9  ballshot of a 1-3pound sized atachet together with rings.

So whats the diffrence between the both

 

Canister cant penetrate amor, Grape is designed to keep together and spread out after it penetrate the amor.

 

Then grape is hsot, the basket will carry the Grape to the target, upon penetration and deformation the rings will get loose and the ballshots will flyout in a 20-30° cone.

so inportant is to know that Grape indeed is able to punch through amor.

 

 

but is that balanced, no. Nobody wants to be graped through full amor, thats why we actually shoot canister.

 

To the thing on 1st rates and the habit of loosing a good chunk of crew, ships if the line have a huge amount ofcannons on each side, if oyu hit them with grape you achieve 5-7 crewwkills

 

that are 250-350 crew on each side, so the issue of grape is the issue of the not exssiting crew behavior. They simply dont take cover

 

[admin]

 Ok this I kind of agree.. But then we have the BS system that you have to remove the Stern armor in game to be effective grapeing from stern which is silly.. there wasn't any armor back there on the top 2 or 3 decks(depending on the ship).... Heck you shoot through the windows there should be NOTHING in the way the length of the deck but guns and men until you get to the fore castle

 

 

You don't have to remove stern armor if you can aim directly at windows. 

Perhaps its just a lack of knowledge of the system ?

[The Spud]

Question by someone who knows nothing about age of sail history and gunnery.

 

Isn't it a bit odd that a ship, even when structuraly severly damaged (0 hp left) on the sides, would let trought grape so easily? If like a vic has 70cm of hull, i can't imagine these grapes would be penetrating trough that, even when structuraly severly damaged. I get that grape would get trough the cannon ports, but trought the side hull. Was this something they did back then, and was that something effective.

Did they actualy tore the structure down of the sides and fired grape at a hull? I get that the weather deck is unprotected for the most part, and that those men would be very sustainable to grape fire.

 

A stern rake is something different, i get that a stern rake is effective, but like on a vic vs vic situation with one side torn down to just a bit of planks. I think I can grape between 80 - 100 men with a broadside. Aren't those more like realistic stern rake numbers?

 

These are just things I wonder, I know nothing about the history or of possible battle references. Just some thoughts I have over this?

[Fuzzyhead12]

Question by someone who knows nothing about age of sail history and gunnery.

 

Isn't it a bit odd that a ship, even when structuraly severly damaged (0 hp left) on the sides, would let trought grape so easily? If like a vic has 70cm of hull, i can't imagine these grapes would be penetrating trough that, even when structuraly severly damaged. I get that grape would get trough the cannon ports, but trought the side hull. Was this something they did back then, and was that something effective.

Did they actualy tore the structure down of the sides and fired grape at a hull? I get that the weather deck is unprotected for the most part, and that those men would be very sustainable to grape fire.

 

A stern rake is something different, i get that a stern rake is effective, but like on a vic vs vic situation with one side torn down to just a bit of planks. I think I can grape between 80 - 100 men with a broadside. Aren't those more like realistic stern rake numbers?

 

These are just things I wonder, I know nothing about the history or of possible battle references. Just some thoughts I have over this?

actuel in a firefight your Ballshot would damage and remove planking, also creating holes of the size of the canonball, Also Grape, is not like a Canistershot, Grape might be able to pass through amor by itself. Just think about it like a Buckshot round, while birshot would be canisteround, the size diffrence is probelly the best explaination in that, now scale the pellets in birdshot up to musketballs, now oyu have canister, now do the same and scale up the Buckshot pellets to the size of  1-3 pound ballshot, and oyu might have an idea of the devastating firepower. Also the shipamor get thiner to the weatherdeck, but also get in some cases more sloped. 

 

this can cause that the upperdecks can be graped but the lowero nes cant. But grape would most likley not pass through 70cm of amor

[admin]

Question by someone who knows nothing about age of sail history and gunnery.

 

Isn't it a bit odd that a ship, even when structuraly severly damaged (0 hp left) on the sides, would let trought grape so easily? If like a vic has 70cm of hull, i can't imagine these grapes would be penetrating trough that, even when structuraly severly damaged. I get that grape would get trough the cannon ports, but trought the side hull. Was this something they did back then, and was that something effective.

 

 

 

The intact hull does not let it through.

The severely damaged one has a lot of holes in it and is structurally weaker. Thus due to sheer volume of grape balls some get in even through hull. 

They don't get in if you shoot at angle. If your angle of grape fire is above 30 degrees they won't get in. 

[Hethwill]

Was lessoned a couple days ago by a gallant captain which all he did was grape right off the bat aiming at gun ports and carefully timing the broasides.

Went from 318 crewmen to 200 in less than 15 mins of maneuvering.

It is a practice I guess, almost as similar to specializing in precision mast shooting or massive leak broadsides timing.

[admin]

Was lessoned a couple days ago by a gallant captain which all he did was grape right off the bat aiming at gun ports and carefully timing the broasides.

Went from 318 crewmen to 200 in less than 15 mins of maneuvering.

It is a practice I guess, almost as similar to specializing in precision mast shooting or massive leak broadsides timing.

 

well - the question is - is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Eishen]

well - the question is - is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

At long as it requires skill and is comparable to other tactics (massive leaking, demasting,...) it should not be a bad thing

 

But  if it becomes clearly and mathematicaly superior (as seemed pointed by original poster) it would be a very bad thing

 

BTW in my (very limited frig on frig and SoL vs SoL ) own test against an opponent who uses mostly this tactic seems VERY viable but no way a sure thing