Collision physics

[Privateer]

I'm in accord with BungeeLemming on most points.  Some noteworthy aspects of collision as far as bowsprit/rigging interaction are concerned (insofar as I am familiar):

 

First and foremost (pun not intended), the bow of a sailing vessel is very unlike its oared counterparts.  Galleys with rams could rely on strong prows without rigging getting in the way, to put it simply.  A sailing vessel with a bowsprit is a comparatively fragile machine, the existence of which generally precludes any possibility of unilateral damage upon collision.

 

If the bowsprit comes in contact with another hull at considerable speed it will likely shatter, potentially penetrating if the victim's timber is sufficiently weak.  Should the bowsprit become lodged in the hull (or rigging, in the case of a two- or three-decker ramming a sloop or frigate with significantly less freeboard), the ramming vessel will be torqued orthogonal to its present heading (in the case of a right-angle collision) as the kinetic energy of the victim transfers to the rammer.  This will assuredly destroy the bowsprit and impart a violent force on associated rigging, potentially disabling the rammer's foremast entirely and compromising the bow structure itself, depending on the intensity of the collision.

 

The effect of the ram on the victim, I conjecture, will depend primarily on the point of impact.  Should the bowsprit of the ramming vessel become entangled in the victim's shrouds, the resultant torque may be sufficient to collapse the affected mast.  Under normal conditions the shrouds counter the positive force of the wind with negative tension, with respect to the ship's heading, but the considerable surge in negative force (as the rammer is torqued in the direction of the victim's heading—Newton's laws coming into play) may overwhelm the rigging.  A similar effect renders hazardous a tack in heavy weather, where the sails may be taken aback as the bow crosses irons (producing strong negative force on the rigging) in which case wearing ship is the preferred maneuver.

 

Ultimately, I see ramming as tactically undesirable.  It is tantamount to mutually-assured destruction if the conditions aren't strongly in the rammer's favour, and the risks are significant.  In all likelihood it is a case of "trading a mast for a mast," should you compromise your own foremast in an effort to destroy that of your opponent.  If the rammer possesses a tremendous size advantage over its opponent these risks may be mitigated, but if the opportunity for man o'war ramming sloop arises in the first place the fight can assuredly be decided by other, more orthodox measures (either the sloop is disabled and thus unable to adequately fight back or the sloop's conn is incompetent/AFK/what have you).

 

All to say it's ill-advised, but certainly not without merit, in my opinion.

[Barberouge]

If they implemented realistic ramming damage, every battle would end like that. As soon as someone sees that they are being beaten, they will decide to send both ships to the bottom.

 

Don't forget that a damaged ship could be slower, thus collisions at 90° with a good speed would be easier to avoid. With the current bow/sides differentiation, ramming might turn out to be a good tactic to decide where to apply damage though (trade-off). On the other hand, targetting a bow would make sure that the opponent couldn't risk a ramming charge. Also, demasting should be balanced regarding the increased possibility of ramming and/or boarding.

 

Also I think that entangling the colliding ships (in addition to hull and spar damage) could be interesting.

[BrutishVulgarian]

Right now, I find ramming is the closest substitute for club hauling "handbrake turn of the sea".   If it works right, you can bring your unfired guns to bear in tight quarters.

[Bart Smith]

Collision model was one of that things that was not implemented into PotBS and i belive You guys trying make game WAY better than old PotBS?. They said game engine was too old for that, well hope your game engine will allow make good and balanced collision sytem. For me its natural that ships getting damage when hit each other both structure and armour would say.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Privateer had excellent points with regards to rigging and the effects of the loss of the bowsprit on the various masts.

In most cases, the bowsprit supports the forestay, which prevents the masts from falling towards the stern. The masts are supported from aft by the backstay, which similarly prevents the masts from falling forward. The stays and shrouds are already under a live load from the force of the wind, as well as the action waves put on the ship. The danger of a sudden deceleration, as when the ship runs aground at speed, or hits another ship at speed, is that the shrouds or stays may be overwhelmed, causing one or more of the masts or booms to go by the board. Ramming another ship fairly hard should introduce a good probability of one or more of the masts or booms to fail or become far more fragile, reducing the sail plan and speed potential of the ship. As mentioned above, two ships that get too close would often result in a crew intent on boarding to lash together the yards they could reach, preventing the ships from separating until the defending crew could cut loose (or enough force was applied to cause the tangled/lashed rigging components to fail).

Fallen rigging and sails from any failure of same should also introduce a higher risk of fire on the deck for the period of time it would take to cut away shrouds, sheets, and stays to allow the wreckage to be swept overboard. Related Question: Are there any plans to hamper maneuverability and speed based on drag from masts that have fallen but are still attached by rigging?

As suggested, overall hull thickness should play a huge part in how much damage is done by rammer to the rammed. The impact itself would be likely to spring boards in the hull causing additional leaking, even if no "true" penetration (or a lasting hole) is achieved.

 

Edit - Sorry, I know I'm preaching to the converted on a lot of this, but then I know there's likely quite a few forumers that don't understand the function of all those lines attached to the masts.  I'll also say I have a basic functional knowledge of this stuff from sailing a 25' Catalina Sloop growing up, but I'm sure my vocabulary is lacking in a number of areas, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the more complex ships, brigs, xebecs, snows, etc.  

[AKPyrate]

Not exactly full speed or fighting ships, but real life examples...

 

Similar size small ships: http://capeannimages.blogspot.com/2009/09/rule-one-in-tall-ship-watching.html

Result: light rigging damage to one boat (obviously, both boats were eventually trying to free the two vessels with as little damage as possible)

 

Larger boat with a smaller one: http://www.thechronicleonline.com/news/local_news/article_67c74284-cd54-11e1-90a0-001a4bcf887a.html

And: http://www.oldsaltblog.com/2012/07/privateer-royaliste-the-sternwheeler-portland-and-the-very-bad-friday-the-13th/

Result: significant hull and some rigging damage, but it could be kept up with until hauled out with extra pumps.  Below is one of the comments on the article (I only wish I was the owner of that fine craft).

"I’m the owner of The Royaliste and I was on board when the Sternwheeler SQUASHED us. There is no question that the Sternwheeler actually hit our beautiful ship. I truly believe she acted as a fender and kept 30 or so people from swimming in the Willamette, or floating. We had docked successfully and were celebrating our maiden voyage, after months of hard work on board by dedicated volunteers. We were posing for photos when we spotted the Sternwheeler backing right into us – 928 tons verses 45 tons!!! You do the math. Divers spent Friday evening and all day Saturday patching her during the festival while we tried to carry on with our pirate performer duties, despite the trauma we all felt. We still had a lot of water coming in on the way home so the journey was harrowing. We have been on watch for 6 days to keep her from sinking and finally got the go ahead to haul her out today. The damage is obvious and very sad, especially since our main goal has been to get her ready for our OWN Portland Pirate Festival on Labor Day Weekend. It’s devastating that all has been for nothing and now we will not have our beautiful Royaliste there with us on Sept. 1st and 2nd. It’s disheartening to be “made light of” by the Sternwheeler captain and to see in print that we may have only felt the rush of water from the paddle."

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Poor folks.  Definitely a fine example of a sprung hull.

[Baggywrinkle]

Another voice of support for Privateer's fine post, and one against anything that would make 'ramming' (the intentional driving of your vessel into another with an intent to cause damage to her) a lightly undertaken activity. 

 

Ramming like this would only really work - you win, they lose, end of story - against a vessel small enough to lie under your bowsprit (though not necessarily your dolphin striker). By happy chance, anything that small would simply be pushed aside by your bow wave and go bouncing down the side of your hull largely unaffected. A bit bigger and although your head gear might be man enough to take being punched through a cutter's mainsail without breaking, all you've no achieved is picking up an extra ships boat with no easy means of retrieving her! Trying to ram anything bigger still would certainly involve some level of damage to your head rig, including potential loss of spars. Which is pretty stressful, and not that conducive to effecting an epic win. Laying alongside another vessel is tricky and dangerous enough as it is. We came alongside a square-rigger with her yards braced square (it is common practice and courtesy to brace sharp up when alongside) once in my old boat, a fore-and-after, and it was bloody hard work to keep clear of a tangle aloft. Clearly in battle priorities are a little different, but the risk of disabling-ly serious damage would still be a major concern. Huge risk, very little reward.

 

In terms of hulls, a stem post coming crashing in between frames will stove planks in, without doubt, and no wooden vessel is good at shock/impact loads. There are some wonderful (scary!) images of collision damage from lots of classic yacht races. So it's not that causing damage is impossible, and there does seem to be potential to use the tactic offensively.

 

However, the odds of a successful hit are so low, the risk of damage to your own vessel aloft and below so high, and the net result (two vessels stuck together) so tactically ambiguous that it should not, in my view, be an attacking option to be encouraged. Blast with shot, lay alongside and board. Don't go charging in jibboom cranse iron and outer forestays first!

 

Baggy

 

ps. This is very different to not wanting collision physics to be looked at. 

[BlouBulle]

I have just found a nice way to win battles, a guy crossed my snow in a cutter (I think by accident) and I hit him and sank, I realize that even with a repair nothing saves a sinking snow however even if a ship has got a weak bow it seems a very exploitable tactic (which I have to say has worked very nicely twice for me).

 

You have created an anti-ram mechanic that promotes ramming by crossing another ship at the correct moment and letting him bump you with his bow, the easiest way to prevent rams is to lower the damage or set the damage to 50% of the bow MAX... and basically no damage to the strong side of a ship.

 

Please lower the ramming damage as I do not believe a cutter would survive a hit from a large armed brig (snow) and I doubt the brig would sink and the cutter not even take water.

[BungeeLemming]

This method wont work with big ships unless you are prepared to sink both of you.

Also when you immediately hit some repairs and the survival focus you most likely to survive the ram.

 

When ramming up front your bowsprit will rip off. Means if you dont want to be crippled you have to repair it thus you used two repairs for a "maybe" benefit wich "can" sink your enemy. And yourself included.

[Magnum]

When you want to board and capture a bit of ramming is in order - arrrrggg!

 

Also if a smaller vessel gets in your way - and is the enemy - so much the better, crunch!

[Robert Danforth]

I've been reading a minute-by-minute account of Trafalgar, and it seems like a lot of the time, enemy ships would get their rigging caught up together. This had the effect of locking the two together until someone cut the lines, or a mast came down.

 

It was also pretty common for boarding actions.

 

I'm not sure if it's even doable, or if it would even be desirable (seems a little annoying), but I wanted to bring it up. It sounds kind of cool, and it might make players more reluctant to just sidescrape in to others and empty a broadside (you know, keep SOME distance, like pistol range, or 25 yards).

[Flip]

In theory it's a cool idea, I just have thoughts of it becoming not so much exploited but overused as a way to immobilize and block first / second rates.

I think there's one account where a ship went nose first into another and got tangled resulting in the one ship being only able to fire it's nose guns while the other raked her nose. While it sounds awesome if it happens too often it becomes a tactic that will see too much use as the one ship is surely doomed.

[Robert Danforth]

It's a fair point. It would have to be balanced in some way where it made sense, if done at all.

[Crankey]

In my Santissima I have often had my bowsprit ripped away by a passing Brig (Or smaller vessel) friendly and enemy alike.

 

My bowsprit falls every single time, however quite often the Brig gets away with zero visible mast damage. The connecting parts of the ship are quite clearly Bowsprit vs mast.

 

Have you seen the weight of timber comparison between the two ? The Brig mast is like a matchstick compared to a roof truss of Bowsprit on the Santi

 

I think the chances of damage should be reversed, The Brig almost guaranteed loss of at least upper masts and the SOL a much lower chance of bowsprit loss.

 

Obviously this should be scaled against the size of ships involved.

 

Also I think hull damage caused by smaller ships should be much reduced in this scenario as the bows of a ship are designed to survive huge masses of water impacting upon it and as such is the strongest point of the hull.

[Rik]

pretty sure the game works right now is: Frontal collision = bowsprit gone no matter what size or direction the other ship was

[Balck]

Did the brig tap your bow?  Doesn't take much.

[Prater]

+1.  (out of likes)

[maturin]

I would love for bowsprits to get an actual hitbox, so if we clip someone's stern with the jibboom, it will snap off.

 

Conversely, an SOL's bowsprit (the lower, thicker part) should outright dismast a smaller vessel. And of course no bowsprits should be snapping off just because the ship's beak crunched a cutter ten feet below.

[Lord Hood]

It's a tactic that I have seen more and more often as of late. Glad to see that the bowsprit issue is now coming to the table.

[Crankey]

Ramming into another ship at a good speed at an oblique/right angle (say 45 to 90 degrees angle), if the ship being rammed is of a similar size or a larger class would be almost the equivalent of running aground and stopping dead.

 

This would put tremendous pressure on the masts and stays of the ramming ship, and I believe a serious chance of multiple mast damage should be tested for.

[maturin]

Yeah, full speed should result in full dismasting for the rammer, much of the time. That will dissuade people!

[Prater]

2 Yachts can ram into a stopped constitution and push him at a consistent 4 kns.  Is this realistic?  I know some people will cause others to ram them for the purpose of slowing the enemy down (to board), but they will continue at 10+ kns

[Reki]

Yeah, full speed should result in full dismasting for the rammer, much of the time. That will dissuade people!

to low damage for that sad result for rammer. Its a bit unfair.

[maturin]

It's completely fair. Ramming is a BS tactic that should be discouraged, except for giving SoL's a way to handle pesky little brigs. It's far too popular already and this would fix it.