Hotfix 9.72

[Emperor Solaris]

personally here is my problem with PVE, since you run a chance to fight 2 ships you must take smaller mission on your larger ship it make sense just thinking about it this way BUT the AI are then sailing smaller and lower profile ship than you causing you to miss them much more than if it was a larger ship and for them you are a huge sitting duck

my highest ship so far is a Cerberus and yesterday either i am really terrible at this game but a simple mission vs a Brig and a Pickle and i nearly got sunk because i had issues hitting them because they were smaller

if all PVE mission would be vs a single ships or would adjust to the number of players in the group it would already be a lot easier on the player, as it is now i completely stopped runing missions unless my friend is online as of now

[Jan van Santen]

Darby was responding first of all to people that claim the AI cheat.

This is a very different accusation from your valid opinion that the AI is too hard.

 

Which is somewhat outdated, since we all know now (and have that officially confirmed) that the Ai plays by a different set of rules..in other words:  cheats

Edited April 16, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[Lennyo]

After playing more, I'm thinking the 6 and 9 lb long guns might be the only ones that are bugged.

 

Fought a player Connie in my Essex yesterday and his armor worked fine against me. 18lb longs only had about 50% penetration and did 300ish damage per broadside. 12lb longs had maybe 33% penetration. Range was relatively close 400 meters or so for most broadsides so I'd say these penetration values are reasonable. His 24lb guns did good damage and his weather deck 42 carronade punched right through, but that's expected. When I capped him, I discovered he was teak, which would have helped him bounce a few.

 

HOWEVER, doing some lower level missions in my Live Oak Constitution I felt I was made of paper. I did an M&C mission against 2 navy brigs. Here's the screenshot of the first exchange:

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/280722393134538758/580CF48C7A92F18B7E18B27C403502B145DA525B/

 

Note the number of shots that penetrated from 6lb longs against a live oak constitution. Range was about 300-500 meters depending on the ship.

 

I will also note the broadside I fired in the picture was enough to sink that navybrig due to leaks. However I did not get the kill for it despite it being a mission.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lennyo

[maturin]

Which is somewhat outdated, since we all know now (and have that officially confirmed) that the Ai plays by a different set of rules..in other words:  cheats

Confirmed by who? Link?

 

Every time I see people talk about cheating AI, I just write that person off as a poor player.

 

 

 

http://images.akamai...3502B145DA525B/

Did you not see the thread about the log being outdated and untrustworthy? Also, where the heck is this 50% penetration rate? I see only one failure to penetrate out of several dozen shots.

[Lennyo]

Please read my post again. The 50% pen rate was my 18lb longs against a player constitution. Which I'm not complaining about at all. But a different battle than what the screenshot is from.

 

That screenshot is from MY constitution fighting 2 navy brigs. My shots against the navy brigs mostly penetrated. 1 24lb long failed to penetrate a navy brig as you mentioned. But look at their 6lb guns penetrating the live oak Constitution. THAT is what I'm concerned about.

 

I was not aware the shot log was outdated.

 

 

Did you not see the thread about the log being outdated and untrustworthy? Also, where the heck is this 50% penetration rate? I see only one failure to penetrate out of several dozen shots.

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Lennyo

[Lennyo]

Just did another fight, me in a Teak Constitution against an AI Essex. Guns penetrated when the ships showed flat side, and did not penetrate when angled. That's both ways. Penetration seems to be working fine for the larger guns.

 

The concern was for smaller ones.

[sacapus]

Ok, constructive comments.... Well here's what I noticed in game;

 

1- AI are definitively too op now, don't get me wrong, I'll like challenges like attacking a Belle Poule or a Frigate in a Mercury or a Brig, it's a no brainer that attacking an armed trader with a warship should be easy, well, not anymore. Its some costly repair at port or a 30 minute fight if you want to avoid too much damages. When I want some challenge, I usually target warship not traders.

 

A exceptional Frigate with Live Oak, Extra Planking, 3 permanent modules and 5 regular should not loose half of his armor attacking a Gros Ventre. The AI modules were added due to the 10% penetration bug, because they were too dumb and they were firing at a bouncing angle, well, there a lot smarter now and the 10% bug has been addressed, I too sometime fire at the bouncing angle, it should still happen for them too. I'm assuming they were fitted with all the modules available... Maybe stackable pre-patch...

IMO, AI modules should be removed for traders and reduced for warships.

 

2- Le Gros Ventre, 4 800 cargo space vessel carrying only 51 units, that's 4 749 free space, that's so unrealistic. Who in his right mind will commission a Gros Ventre for 51 units ?

Please add some cargo on the NPC traders.

 

3- Now that players cannot cap warship, the ressource in port just vanished, a player is offering iron fitting for 100 000. Players are stockpiling ressources for crafting, stores are mostly empty right now in PVE US and inflation went to the roof. The players cannot replenish the stocks at this rate with their building, you sell some, 5 minutes later it's all gone.

Adding some cargo in NPC traders should help.

 

Other than these 3 points, the patch is great.

[B4N4N4J0E]

 

Ok, constructive comments.... Well here's what I noticed in game;

 

1- AI are definitively too op now, don't get me wrong, I'll like challenges like attacking a Belle Poule or a Frigate in a Mercury or a Brig, it's a no brainer that attacking an armed trader with a warship should be easy, well, not anymore. Its some costly repair at port or a 30 minute fight if you want to avoid too much damages. When I want some challenge, I usually target warship not traders.

 

A exceptional Frigate with Live Oak, Extra Planking, 3 permanent modules and 5 regular should not loose half of his armor attacking a Gros Ventre. The AI modules were added due to the 10% penetration bug, because they were too dumb and they were firing at a bouncing angle, well, there a lot smarter now and the 10% bug has been addressed, I too sometime fire at the bouncing angle, it should still happen for them too. I'm assuming they were fitted with all the modules available... Maybe stackable pre-patch...

IMO, AI modules should be removed for traders and reduced for warships.

 

2- Le Gros Ventre, 4 800 cargo space vessel carrying only 51 units, that's 4 749 free space, that's so unrealistic. Who in his right mind will commission a Gros Ventre for 51 units ?

Please add some cargo on the NPC traders.

 

3- Now that players cannot cap warship, the ressource in port just vanished, a player is offering iron fitting for 100 000. Players are stockpiling ressources for crafting, stores are mostly empty right now in PVE US and inflation went to the roof. The players cannot replenish the stocks at this rate with their building, you sell some, 5 minutes later it's all gone.

Adding some cargo in NPC traders should help.

 

Other than these 3 points, the patch is great.

 

I agree, NPCs are a bit too stronk now. They were way too weak before the patch. So just a little tweak and I think everyone is fine with it.

Don`t forget the Le Gros has actually "only" space for 1200 units, as it is still x4 until the bigger traders are in game.

But still I agree there could be moar loot to gain.

What I experienced after the patch is that NPC trades leave battle though I have shot down a mast. That shouldn't happen.

The patch in total is great!

Looking forward to the next!

[Mr. Starbuck]

so, currently 9.7x criticism comes mainly down to 2 major problems (apart from the BR/PvP and capping ship changes):

1. AI changes and current state of AI ship balance
2. possible penetration issues regarding 6/9 pd

regarding

1. see http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13258-hotfix-972/?p=243202 for a small suggestion how to calm down the waves and make "everybody" happy again
2. let's test the shijte out of them 6+9 pds then and see if there actually IS an issue

Very well- why should we care about 1. then? Because it's obvious that apart from the fact that many players are drawn to the new challenges and like the way the AI and mission system is working now many experienced and able players are frustrated by it and it currently is a way to chase away newbies which could end to be a major problem for the game.

 

and please...couldn't we stop to counsel others to better drop the game if someone's unhappy with the changes, because "l2P n00b" or vice versa threaten to leave the game because you don't like the changes that are made?

 

I think this citation might serve as fuel to guide our passions into mosre constructive directions:

 

 

These changes aren't set in stone.  No change made to the game is ever flat out permanent.  Everything can be tweaked based on feedback and additional ideas as presented.

 

Don't be daunted or feel like you have to quit because of this patch, instead work through the way to make things better by presenting feedback and ideas in this thread and I'm sure you'll see changes and tweaks that will bring the joy back.

 

 

So it totally makes sense while waiting for "changes and tweaks that will bring the joy back" to lobby for the kind of game experience we'd like to have and start to argue for it in a most constructive manner WHILE TESTING THE SHIJTE OUT OF THIS EA version of NA. "go PvE/PvP" "l2P" "I'll drop if you don't..." and accusations are not constructive at all and won't help in discovering bugs.

 

 

[Jan van Santen]

Confirmed by who? Link?

 

Every time I see people talk about cheating AI, I just write that person off as a poor player.

 

 

Did you not see the thread about the log being outdated and untrustworthy? Also, where the heck is this 50% penetration rate? I see only one failure to penetrate out of several dozen shots.

 

everytime I see someone jumping into a forum discussion w/o reading the thread he posts in I write him off as not to be taken serious....

 

Here is the confirmation that the ai can have different ammo and that it can have upgrades w/o even having the slots (I assume you already have capped a 3rd rate and thus know they don't have permanent slots for copper/rudder, yet they utilize them, see above)

 

Full disclosure:

 

There is one special thing the AI can do:  Load different ammunition by deck, or even by cannon (everyone can load different ammunition by side).  That is an admitted advantage that they have. 

They do have built in buffs, but they are in line with the same modules players can equip.  These were there originally due to their stupidity.  

 

A good bit of feedback might be to keep their new skills but remove the extra buffs.

 

I can't find the post atm were the admin confirmed that AI doesn't suffer as much as players from reduced sails/reduced crew.

 

You see : we do indeed have official confirmaion that the AI plays by it's own set of rules, in other words cheats.

 

Something more for you to learn: If you want to judge a players ability, you need to see him play. 

 

In PvE the AI is my opponent. I like a tough opponent, but I don't like one that cheats. This forum has an entire section (tribunal)  were PvP players accuse others of cheating and exploiting. I don't see why we couldn't do the same for the AI !

Edited April 17, 2016 by Jan van Santen

[LeBoiteux]

2- Le Gros Ventre, 4 800 cargo space vessel carrying only 51 units, that's 4 749 free space, that's so unrealistic. Who in his right mind will commission a Gros Ventre for 51 units ?

Please add some cargo on the NPC traders.

 

I guess it's because warship opponents to LGV (Niagara to Surprise) have only 100-200 cargo space !

You may reply that you can defeat a AI GV with a GV but LGV aren't meant to be AI GV hunters that'd earn 4800 unit loot per fight...

(loot farming)

 

GV are meant to be used by players as trader ship able to resist against 6th-5th Rates, even if LGV, with her strong armor, is right now an easy choice to defeat a Niagara or two Snows in missions or a GV in OW.

[Kanay]

Running multiples tests with various setups in PVE missions it seems that mediums canons do way better at penetration than longs, mediums usually do more damages but now they seems to destroy canons, kill crew and do leaks way better than longs too, still a lot of testing to be done on this but for now the only way i was able to defeat 2 renomee's terminator's AI with an Essex in PVE was using mediums, with longs at some point i have to run for my life as the renomee's will ruin me at a way higher rate than i am able to do using while having more guns and having more armor than them.

 

Against 2 renomee's or a single frigate I ended up in a very bad shape still but nothing comparable in terms of damages, leaks crew and canons removal i inflicted them using long canons, and it ain't became of the highest reload rate or only because the mediums do more base damages than longs only, the destruction of canons, killing crew members, doing leaks or even able to take out armor on the both sides of a ship in one shot was way more efficient than when i used longs since last patch.

 

Still a lot of tests to do and also with ship loaded in full 9's or 6's that seems to do way better than 12 or 18's in many aspects but after testing this quite a bit yesterday it really seems the mediums do a way better job than longs now especially in terms of penetration.

 

 

 

PS: i could not report this using F11 as in battle but Essex with crew space and hammocks gold gets 370 crew, if fitted with 12pd's medium on both decks the sailing needs 130 crew for sailing, gunnery 240, if gunnery is activated i end up with 239/240 crew, if deactivated i get 240/240 crew as seen on the screenshots here : 

 

 

 

Tried this in 2 sessions and always the same results.

[Mr. Starbuck]

Making the AI a challenge by either

1. giving them hidden boni and buffs (AkA the Total War way- BAI receives buffs for morale etc.- comparable to the module buff AIs get in NA)
2. giving them exceptional skill that can be only be seen among the best human players or even transcend those skills (the ArmA 2 way- you'll get sniped by an ironsights AK from 1000 m away- comparable to the AI aiming skills we currently have in AI)

are both workarounds for not providing the AI with a distinct capability to fully grasp the power of their vessels. AI doesn't adjust to player tactics/use successful real-life tactics (preferable Age of Sail tactics) that can outsmart human opponents.

A combination of AI "personalities" or scripts like more daunting/cautious behaviour or more Napoleon, Lee or Nelson than McClellan, ship setups adjusted to it and a general AI ability to use and employ tactics other than "get close and try to run in circles" (proper Line of battle someone?) would certainly thrill and challenge us, furthermore setting NA apart from the crowd- like Ultimate General Gettysburg successfully did. (I assume there a major differences in the way those types of AI have to be programmed. I...just want this so bad  ) Then

balance it by making Midshipman AI a neurotic wanna-be Napoleon that can't hit and Rear Admiral the one and only Hannibal that will kick your ass while laughing.

 

I assume this is a very hard and daunting task to achieve.

All the more as the focus of NA seems to be around PvP, not PvE.

 

Most AAA-backed dev teams don't even care in the slightest about it- AI balancing and "difficulty" is mostly achieved by numbers, buffs and super stats and mali for the players. Yeah. Those are the games that get boring over time. (e.g. Total War AI is still a mess after all these years, and lemme guess- it will never be fixed.) I'd just be interested to know if this a point of interest at all, or not. Make it happen devs and I'd happily light a set of candles in your behalf  the next time I visit a glorious naval monument.  

 

 

 

 

[Lord Heyford]

Having troubles getting boarding "G" to show up.

 

Also, if we can no longer capture warships, how do we break them up for BP?

[blademage]

Having troubles getting boarding "G" to show up.

 

Also, if we can no longer capture warships, how do we break them up for BP?

 

You buy some ships from NPC store or mastercraft some others. Easy. Just hand ~5000 Victories to admiralty and buy 100 for the BPs Easy ain't it?

 

 

Regarding AI:

It seems AI opponents now have all available boni aboard. They have more crew, faster reloads, more marines, targeting computers, weather control systems, etc.

I tested some different variations and found that the AI upgrade was a bit too much (basic cutter vs. cutter is a real hard fight now, I lost 50% of the engagements.

Where 2 navy brigs were no problem for a Cerberus last week, they are nearly impossible to master now. At least ramming was fixed.

[Vernon Merrill]

Having troubles getting boarding "G" to show up.

Also, if we can no longer capture warships, how do we break them up for BP?

You can cap players...

[JimDandy]

Well my PC is back on line after a hard drive crash at the end of the day Wednesday (right after the patch & before hofixs!). Anyway I've now had a couple of days now to play with the new changes to the ai performance in place and while I'm still trying to adapt I do have some observations that I would like to share & discuss.

 

There are bugs,  the most prominent  being that no matter what gun you choose to use  6lb - 32lb you will do the same amount of damage to your opponent and while this is not reflected on the shot log (still shows 6lb creating less damage per shot), in game you are able to shred armor much more efficiently with the higher rate of fire of a 6lb cannon (just sail along side your opponent & slug it out, sound familiar?).

 

Another bug I've noticed is on my frigate, on just the lower deck the guns have a fixed trajectory you are not able to elevate the guns, aim at the sails and hit the hull! I swapped the guns & built another Frigate but nothing changed. Anyway I reported this but I would be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this, one guy told me he had not.

 

Looking past the bugs and just addressing the new world of PVE I don't think it's going to be as much fun as it was. So far it has been pretty boring fighting the new "terminator" class of ai. I know it will improve but let me explain why I say that. In the past the ai were rather dumb and as such if you wanted to have a challenging PVE fight you simply had to choose the right target if you were in a frigate then you could find a fleet with say 2 frigates & a navy brig and you were usually in for a good fast paced battle. The dumbness of the ai was offset by their numerical advantage. As a solo player I would sometimes tag fleets with as many as 6 ai. At other times if I was just grinding for cash and no proper fleets were available yeah I would grab a single ship and take the easy kill. The effect of this was that the player could choose their difficulty level based on their ability and/or mood and I believe that most were like me looking for as changeling a fight as they were able to handle.

 

Contrast that to the new PVE, fight a ship of equal rank (sometimes lesser level),  and have a life & death struggle, repair & repeat.  These new guys always hold the weather gauge, fire often & accurately and still I beat them but every battle is pretty much the same and because of their abilities your target selection & variety becomes very limited. None the less I am keeping an open mind until the bugs get fixed and it can be properly tweaked.

 

I am so glad that we can access all of our missions now, this was long overdue, Thank you Devs. Fleet missions is a brilliant concept and I guess it is fun if you do it with a group of your mates but I have had my ass handed to me every time I enter one. I do this as a solo player and have found that my fellow ai make rather unreliable teammates. It also seems that as the lone player I become the primary target, I may sink a few but they always kill me. Fleet missions is not an option for me as a solo player.

 

As for other aspects of the patch;

land in battles Awesome!

Anti Ganking/ BR limit, A good thing

 

Well I hope this dosn't sound like a rant because that is not my intent, I just thought I'd throw my impressions out there.

[Byng57]

From the developers' announcement on Steam January 21st

 

Combat is more or less finished and we do not expect radical changes in this area - it was being perfected since Nov 2015. Of course new things will be added (mortar brigs) or improved (boarding). In other areas we will continue doing radical changes to find the perfect spot and balance (the so called local maximum).

Sometimes you won't like these changes initially, sometimes you will hate them.

 

Do not worry if some changes are not good enough they will be cut or reverted immediately. Ask our veterans they will confirm this.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Byng57

[Lannes]

From the developers' announcement on Steam January 21st

 

Do not worry if some changes are not good enough they will be cut or reverted immediately. Ask our veterans they will confirm this.

 

Love this!

[Mr. Starbuck]

did some testing with AI 9pd longs firing at my Pavel. Post Cap AI level.

 

The average penetration value due to the shot logs is rather above 80% at perfect alignment,  range ~200m. It drops below if the AI is at an unfavourable angle.

 

Very rarely the don't penetrate, e.g. 2 penetrated, rest did not.

 

Average dmg output for their 9pd is around 250-300 dmg per broaside/salvo fired, with 5-7 penetrated, rest missed. Average single shot seems to be 46,x dmg. Highest hit scored nearly 390 dmg (all shots hit! 9 penetrated).

 

look at the shot ID 323

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/452985078884787693/5FAF19CA0EFBBCC0660196A5D2824399CBCEFB70/

 

Highest score with  my 42pds (medium) was around 700- but lots of the shots still missed.

 

Now, it is is hard to judge if the penetration values are like they are meant to be. As in the heat of the battle it's hard to tell if the AI always has 

• optimal angle
• optimal range

for best penetration results.

 

I'd judge the overall dmg numbers seem high, but not bugged or completely over the top. Question remains though, if 9pds should generally be able to penetrate a Pavels Hull at medium ranges with such ease.

 

What makes the AI so deadly is the fact that due to the log, the AI did not miss a single shot.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Mr. Starbuck

[Toggman]

You guys are awesome

[Bommel]

did some testing with AI 9pd longs firing at my Pavel. Post Cap AI level.

 

The average penetration value due to the shot logs is rather above 80% at perfect alignment,  range ~200m. It drops below if the AI is at an unfavourable angle.

 

Very rarely the don't penetrate, e.g. 2 penetrated, rest did not.

 

Average dmg output for their 9pd is around 250-300 dmg per broaside/salvo fired, with 5-7 penetrated, rest missed. Average single shot seems to be 46,x dmg. Highest hit scored nearly 390 dmg (all shots hit! 9 penetrated).

 

look at the shot ID 323

 

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/452985078884787693/5FAF19CA0EFBBCC0660196A5D2824399CBCEFB70/

 

Highest score with  my 42pds (medium) was around 700- but lots of the shots still missed.

 

Now, it is is hard to judge if the penetration values are like they are meant to be. As in the heat of the battle it's hard to tell if the AI always has 

• optimal angle
• optimal range

for best penetration results.

 

I'd judge the overall dmg numbers seem high, but not bugged or completely over the top. Question remains though, if 9pds should generally be able to penetrate a Pavels Hull at medium ranges with such ease.

 

What makes the AI so deadly is the fact that due to the log, the AI did not miss a single shot.

admin stated that the CTRL+L system is highly outdated and should not be used. It wasn´t updated for 1.5 years.

[Scud]

Another bug I've noticed is on my frigate, on just the lower deck the guns have a fixed trajectory you are not able to elevate the guns, aim at the sails and hit the hull! I swapped the guns & built another Frigate but nothing changed. Anyway I reported this but I would be interested to know if anyone else has experienced this, one guy told me he had not.

 

I also have had this problem on my Frigate. Found if I run mediums instead of longs it helps, but I still can't shoot the range I used to. With longs I can barely aim high enough to hit anything outside of the wind gauge/mini map. Basically the range for my cannonades is the same as my longs due to not being able to elevate the longs.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Scud

[schurem]

I am new to this game, just made it to Niagara before 9.7 hit. Was having fun. Now... not so much. Game is kicking my posterior to monday and back.

Laser accurate gunnery from AI that should be noobs. I myself however have a really hard time landing even a third of my shots, let alone make use of the DPS potential of my ship because the guns are pointing at either the sky or the waves all the time. Perhaps this gets easier once you get a bigger ship that has the guns a little higer up from the waterline?

Either way the AI should miss at least as many shots as I do, and have problems with the rolling of their ship as well. AI is the punching bag, not the big match you are training towards. That should be PvP.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Removed insults.

[JimDandy]

Thanks Scud misery always loves company.

 

Also I have stuck with the 6lb longs on my Essex and wow what difference. they do the same damage as an 18lb (not reflected on shot log), with the rapid reload of the six. I'm even kickin butt in fleet missions!

 

Aiming is different now, different aim point figuring that out helps mucho!