Teleporting with cargo, solving the issue

[Xoosch]

Exactly, Teleport, with or without Cargo should be possible all 5min, ah what i'm saying, all 30sec, and you should be given a money bonus if your ships holds are full.

[Ampen]

How long do you figure players will be willing to plow down hours and hours of open sea sailing either for trade, PvP or just plain travel?

[mirror452]

How long do you figure players will be willing to plow down hours and hours of open sea sailing either for trade, PvP or just plain travel?

 

It is a sailing game after all...

[Ampen]

It is a sailing game after all...

 

Really? I figured it was an 18th century naval combat game.

[Rosebud]

Because of the sheer size of this map, if you can not transport with goods in your hold, than this game might as well be a 'screen saver' for traders.

[Hexxus674]

What about a system where you can teleport to any outpost from the capital with a cool down, but you cannot teleport at all with cargo. Then you will have players teleporting empty to that port 6 hours away, but has to spend 6 hours sailing back loaded. That way there will be risk for a trader but not force them to sail 12 hours with only 6 of those hours being a risk. (I don't feel that losing an empty trade ship is much of a risk). The balance would be no 12 hour trips. Still have a risk of losing cargo if you get captured, so you still need friends to protect you. And for those hardcore players, lost is really lost so navigate carefully. I don't think that there is an area of the map that takes more than 3 hours of sailing in one direction to find land as long as you have some idea of the general direction of land (if you are lost somewhere along the coast of Mexico for example don't head east.) So you have no more real risk of spending hours lost than if you had just used you teleport in the current system.

[ObiQuiet]

Is it possible that, eventually, no indivudual trader will need to sail very far?

IRL, a trade route was established when a chain of individual links were combined and goods changed hands many times along the way. No one person traveled the whole route.

[Vllad]

Teleports are already bad as it is.

 

Being able to teleport cargo as well is just too much. It will ruin the RvR game.

 

If people don't want the risk then they shouldn't be playing this game. It is post like this that give bad idea's that sneak into game.

[Ampen]

Teleports are already bad as it is.

 

Being able to teleport cargo as well is just too much. It will ruin the RvR game.

 

If people don't want the risk then they shouldn't be playing this game. It is post like this that give bad idea's that sneak into game.

 

I don't understand it as an issue where people want to transport stuff without risk, it's merely a fact that it sometimes require alot of time to haul stuff. As ObiQuiet says, if there would sometime develop trader chains I'm pretty certain not many haulers would argue about it.

Now, this interacts with the risk, I belive. I'd wager that haulers have less or no problem with the risk of losing their cargo if the haul is 20 minutes. If they do a haul of 2 hours and lose their cargo, my guess it's not the risk that will break their spirit, but the prospect of another 2 hour haul, wich might end up the same way.

[surfimp]

I understand the desire to avoiding having to sail for hours and hours on end just to do a trade route.

 

But as mentioned above, the current teleport system is very detrimental to OW PVP / privateering having any higher purpose at all beyond "sheer bloody-mindedness". Especially, the teleporting makes OW PVP / privateering pointless in a RvR sense, which is a shame and detrimental to the game.

 

So I propose: implement an autopilot feature in lieu of the teleport system for ships. Your pick the port you want your ship to sail to, and it will sail there as an NPC, taking a predictable amount of time.

 

This makes the ship subject to interdiction, and thereby opens up a whole host of really important and really cool features for RvR and other play styles beyond the port battle paradigm.

 

And it saves traders from having to slog around, if they don't enjoy that.

[Captain Boneboys]

If we group options 5 & 6 there is a strong and popular argument for the abolition of teleporting with cargo.

I voted to remove teleporting all together, which I am not going to change after witnessing how a call to arms will result in many Captains teleporting to defend a port near to the Capital.

This does seem to be a little unfair if we consider that the enemy has often travelled great distances.

 

However, teleporting with cargo should be removed, I'm sure this will promote search & destroy gameplay for many while at the same time encourage those transporting to group with other players who will act as escort.

 

There is a somewhat related Topic here (the bug concerned has been resolved btw)...

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/11211-capturing-player-trader/?view=findpost&p=198805

[NoShipSailsForever]

of all the ideas here there aren't many ones that are actually good for both sides...

i can understand the PvP players that say that risk-free teleporting of goods s*cks...true...but as it is also stated...

sailing 6hours in one direction and then lose your stuff maybe even near the destination port...will s*ck hard and i don't think any trader will do so again then which will result in the problem with sky rocketing prices

 

especially would that be hurting in my opinion if the stuff you got there wasn't only bought, but from your own production, as it is now (costs you money + labor)...if you have maybe 4 Iron Mines at level 3 in a port...

you can get at max 900 iron ore atm per mine every 3 days... that would result with 4 mines in 3600 iron ore for 78 gold which would be 280800 worth of gold...BUT you  would also have the labor hours which will be something like 450-10% = 405 labor hours per mine...so 1620 labor hours wasted...maybe atm not completly because you could only transport 3200 at a time as it is now...just as another point to think about

 

ideas i think are more fitting of mentioned or were not yet mentioned:

1. short trading routes, used by more traders

 

2. either making your fleet ships to trader(s) or adjust the fleet ships to take your (captured / build / bought ships...maybe with increasing rank requirement so that a  midshipman can't take 3rd's as fleet)

 

3. the idea which in this post http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/10900-ship-purpose-flexibility/regarding to remove the trade shis as whole, and to  adjust the warships instead (less cannons = more cargospace, more cannons = less cargo) this would probably result also in more thrill in battles as you woulld need to enter a battle to see if the cannon ports are open or closed...so you will never know if it is a modified trader 3rd Rate you attack there...or a normal war ship...some may cry that it was not so historical that a warship was used for that at taht time...but isn't it MY choice how I use MY ships?

 

4. let your clan mates help you on escort trips...even with those 6hour ones...would be an idea, sure...but would you really find someone to escort you on this kind of boring trip?

 

5. the idea with different cooldowns...shorter one for ship only (e.g. fighting purpose) and a longer one with cargo

[akd]

of all the ideas here there aren't many ones that are actually good for both sides...

i can understand the PvP players that say that risk-free teleporting of goods s*cks...true...but as it is also stated...

sailing 6hours in one direction and then lose your stuff maybe even near the destination port...will s*ck hard and i don't think any trader will do so again then which will result in the problem with sky rocketing prices

especially would that be hurting in my opinion if the stuff you got there wasn't only bought, but from your own production, as it is now (costs you money + labor)...if you have maybe 4 Iron Mines at level 3 in a port...

you can get at max 900 iron ore atm per mine every 3 days... that would result with 4 mines in 3600 iron ore for 78 gold which would be 280800 worth of gold...BUT you would also have the labor hours which will be something like 450-10% = 405 labor hours per mine...so 1620 labor hours wasted...maybe atm not completly because you could only transport 3200 at a time as it is now...just as another point to think about

Sounds like an excellent reason for an escort.

ideas i think are more fitting of mentioned or were not yet mentioned:

1. short trading routes, used by more traders

With implementation of production buildings, there is basically no reason to sail on OS with full hold ever. Just go to 3-5 ports deep in heart of national territory and close to capital, then when full TP to capital. Actually, since production is not complete in a day, you could probably get a system going where you only visit one port per day then TP to capital with the goods, or even better just specialize in one resource so you only need to visit one port. All players then sell / exchange their produced goods in the capital where all ships are produced. Completed ships can then be take command TP'd to wherever they are needed. No OS trade whatsoever. If this is not already happening it will shortly, as people are just now starting to actively pursue traders (it was pointless before).

Soon any player trader you see on OS will probably be empty with the rare exception of someone taking goods to sell or build with at a freeport, or traders of those poor nations that have have lost even the 3-4 ports they need to hold to supply all goods without risk.

[surfimp]

My "other" suggestion:

1. Eliminate the ability to teleport ships, but keep the ability to teleport captains.

2. In lieu of ship teleport, when in port, allow captains to put their ships on "autopilot", whereby their ship will be sailed by an NPC crew between the starting port and destination. This will alleviate the need for a player to manually sail on a long trade haul, if that's not what they're into. And free them up to do other things - seek PVP, trade, craft, etc.
 

3. Allow players to hire a NPC escort for their autopiloted ship, to help prevent its capture en route. The player would of course also be free to manually sail the escort mission if they so chose, and/or encourage (or pay!) a friend/clanmate/whoever to do so as well.

 

The net result of these changes would be hugely beneficial for the game:

• There would be quite a lot more player-owned ships plying the sea in the open world.
• People would have a real and meaningful reason to both intercept as well as escort trade ships.
• This would greatly encourage PVP by making it much easier to find other players, or at least the ships owned by other players.
• It would provide something important for low- and mid-level captains to do in an RVR sense.
• And it would give small population nations a means by which to fight back against larger, more populous nations while also gaining them access to important resources they might not otherwise be able to secure due to the loss of ports. 
• Lastly, it would break the stranglehold the current Port Battle format has on the game, opening up a wide variety of new playstyles.

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

Remove teleports, increase open sea speeds by 3-4x and all the problems are solved all while making the game a lot more fun and increasing pvp encounters.

Or perhaps leave a teleport but call it charter instead. You pay X gold to move from a port to another but it takes 1 hour real time during which you cannot play. No ship or goods are moving with you, you are essentially boarding a trader ship as a passenger, without any interaction. This would be best used wheb you are stopping your game session, in prevision of what you'll want to do during your next. This prevents instant teleports, cargo exploits, ship moving and using teleports to defend ports.

I said 1h but it could be 4, its rather irrelevant at that point, so long as its long enough to not be able to teleport and defend.

[XMeK]

Seriously... if we're expected to micro-manage all aspects of cargo transport by specifically spending HOURS UPON HOURS of watching semi-decent water graphics then this isn't a game. 

 

What is the purpose of this "game"? Is Game labs trying to build an RPG? A sailing sim? A mercantile economy simulator?

 

If the answer an RPG then there is a great basis for it already... it simply has to be made a bit more playable and the micro-management of everything simplified. If you're trying to make a Mercantile Economy simulator this will fail miserably as the transportation of goods is needlessly prohibited. If a sailing sim... then please... more battles and less time  being forced to watch semi-decent water graphics for hours.

[jodgi]

i can understand the PvP players that say that risk-free teleporting of goods s*cks...

Those aren't PVP players. PVP players don't give a shit about traders.

As a self proclaimed PVPer and, since the wipe, a hard core eco player (lvl50) I say that this fixation with vulnerable traders is a fruitless waste of time. It never mattered and never will.

[surfimp]

Those aren't PVP players. PVP players don't give a shit about traders.

As a self proclaimed PVPer and, since the wipe, a hard core eco player (lvl50) I say that this fixation with vulnerable traders is a fruitless waste of time. It never mattered and never will.

 

Tell me more about this hardcore PVP which requires you grind hundreds of hours of PVE fleets in order to be able to participate in a setpiece battle where, if you're lucky enough to get opponents to show up at all, it's all but guaranteed that whoever shows up with the highest BR can win without sinking any enemy ship.

 

Thanks but I'm hopeful that the inclusion of the Open World can be used for something a lot more interesting than just serving as a tremendously inefficient lobby system for Port Battles.

 

Sir Francis Drake sees your comments about privateering not mattering and is laughing as he swims in a pool full of Spanish treasure fleet gold.

[Ampen]

Tell me more about this hardcore PVP which requires you grind hundreds of hours of PVE fleets in order to be able to participate in a setpiece battle where, if you're lucky enough to get opponents to show up at all, it's all but guaranteed that whoever shows up with the highest BR can win without sinking any enemy ship.

 

Thanks but I'm hopeful that the inclusion of the Open World can be used for something a lot more interesting than just serving as a tremendously inefficient lobby system for Port Battles.

 

Sir Francis Drake sees your comments about privateering not mattering and is laughing as he swims in a pool full of Spanish treasure fleet gold.

 

I think you missed his point. For myself as an example, I'm mainly here because I'm interested in the PvP, and as such, the idea of risk-free hauling is a non-issue, really, I'm not out to catch traders. It's not what I expect from PvP, what I expect is fighting other fighting vessels. 

 

On top of that, as a player interested in mainly PvP I also support your argument if I understand it correct, that the game should tweaked in some way to increase the chances of PvP, instead of as it is now, where it's basically down to attacking where one expects empty waters and no opposition. If I understand you correct the Open World as it is doesn't promote combat enough? If so, I'm totally with you, but I'd also like to hear if you have some ideas about it.

 

As for the subject at hand, I do think that strict econ players might be more willing to endure long OS travel for the sake of hauling, let's face it, it's an integral part of their play: they amass the resources needed and they use those to build products and ships. For me that's looking for PvP on the other hand, OS travel and the limit of teleporting once every 4th hour is really something that limits opportunities. Considering the vast reaches of the map and the few amount of players, one bad call could really wreck your entire evening.

I would also like to state that as a personal opinion, as a PvP'er I wouldn't mind taking the long OS trip as an escort for an eco player hiring me to do so. That on the other hand would probably require for me to sometimes be able to teleport a bit more often.

 

To sum it up, I do think there's merit to disallow teleporting with cargo completely (part of eco players gameplay) while on the other hand allow teleportation without cargo completely (promotes PvP, and will as well reduce the strain of empty cargo hauls for econ players).

Of course, some RvR fanatic will claim this destroys/disrupts/removes RvR, but really, I would say this game would benefit from the more actual PvP that the RvR contains, instead of vice versa.

 

edit: clarifications and typos

Edited March 21, 2016 by Ampen

[elvismolotov]

i d like to mention that it is already possible to send goods between free towns .therefor i see no reason to teleport with cargo in terms of resources or material . i would still allow cannons or upgrades in the hold of a teleporting ship .

if teleporting with cargo would be terminated i would find it helpfull to reduce the cooldown of the teleport to make it easier for pvp trips .

its not exactly related but i would also like to extend the time portbattles are open to join .

maybe with theese changes i manage to be at a portbattle in time :-) really looking forward to that

[jodgi]

Tell me more about this hardcore PVP which requires you grind hundreds of hours of PVE fleets in order to be able to participate in a setpiece battle where, if you're lucky enough to get opponents to show up at all, it's all but guaranteed that whoever shows up with the highest BR can win without sinking any enemy ship.

Thanks but I'm hopeful that the inclusion of the Open World can be used for something a lot more interesting than just serving as a tremendously inefficient lobby system for Port Battles.

Sir Francis Drake sees your comments about privateering not mattering and is laughing as he swims in a pool full of Spanish treasure fleet gold.

What if I told you I haven't done a single PB since wipe? I know peeps view it as the end-all-be-all end-game, I'm glad they're having fun, but I don't get off on those pile-ons.

I QQ on the PVE grind too. If I could reliably gain rank by PVP I'd stop touching those bots. My hope is that OW hunting will get better and better.

Francis can have all the gold in the world. I want fun and skill based PVP. Also, I don't hit girls.

[Powderhorn]

Port Battles are for the birds, and happening upon a laden trader is just icing on the cake.

[Tyrant]

And traders will no longer go in search of goods, risk is barely an issue, it's ludicrous to believe traders will sail 5 hours in one direction to do a trade run and then do the same amount of sailing just to return, the distances are too great and there is nowhere near enough profit in it to sail that long, it'll be easier to earn money doing PvP and PvE.

I believe the price of goods would change to allow profit. Supply and demand. More risk, more difficult, supply would go down and demand would remain making prices go up.

[surfimp]

What if I told you I haven't done a single PB since wipe? I know peeps view it as the end-all-be-all end-game, I'm glad they're having fun, but I don't get off on those pile-ons.

I QQ on the PVE grind too. If I could reliably gain rank by PVP I'd stop touching those bots. My hope is that OW hunting will get better and better.

Francis can have all the gold in the world. I want fun and skill based PVP. Also, I don't hit girls.

My theory is that by forcing traders to move valuable cargo through the OW, you thereby force others - with armed warships - to escort them or face the loss of said valuable cargo.

To the extent that the overall economy - including resource production - can be tweaked suitably, interdiction of this sort - and the prevention thereof - could become its own very meaningful aspect of RVR competition.

Which, at least as I see it, would tend towards a lot more PVP happening outside of the Port Battle meta that currently overshadows almost everything else in terms of PVP.

So I think we want the same things, I'm just trying to encourage the refinement of mechanics that will (as I see it) make PVP more likely & worthwhile for people outside of the Port Battle context.

[jodgi]

I'm not so big on the "forcing" thing.

I also don't want to spend even one calorie thinking about ways to make trader PVP happen, so boring. I don't see escorts happening at any significant scale, today it's only done by role-players and clueless players. Too much work and cooperation for a nano chance of fun.