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In preparation of part 5 (final changes) of the sailing model.

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Captains .Please review and suggest improvements to

  1. wind changes
  2. heel
  3. leeway (sideforce) and ship differences
  4. general turnrates (using rudder or yards or both)
  5. speed curves and ship difference
  6. tacking time
  7. downwind turning time

Feel free to propose buffs or debuffs if necessary

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There are terrible disparities on the same br, for example Wasa and Agamemnon have the same br, and Aggie is tragic compared to Wasa.

btw. Aggie is tragic at all, compared to everything that moves

Edited by Wojtek
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13 minutes ago, Wojtek said:

There are terrible disparities on the same br, for example Wasa and Agamemnon have the same br, and Aggie is tragic compared to Wasa.

btw. Aggie is tragic at all, compared to everything that moves

BR won't change anything. This ship needs performance or gun load nerf.

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Constitution - Painful to sail. It has serious trouble dueling other 4th rates in terms of maneuverability, and doesn't stand a chance vs. most 5th rates. I think it needs a buff to turning, could be rudder, yards, or a mix of both. The profile and speed are fine, it just needs help with turning. 

Indefatigable - A good ship overall, but it is completely ruined by the strangely weak rudder. The rudder health isn't different from other 5th rates, but there is something incredibly bad about the rudder placement or hitbox. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but if you ever get stern raked, the rudder breaks. It is without a doubt the worst ship I have every sailed in terms of rudder health. I realize there are mods to help buff the rudder health, but they don't fix the problem. I have tested them. I think it is just too easy to hit the rudder when stern raking, and if this were adjusted, the indefatigable could actually become a useful ship in PvP again. 
Side note: Strangely, the Agamemnon does not seem to suffer from the same weak rudder, in my experience. 

Belle Poule - Needs a small turn rate nerf, I think. It is strange that it has a turn rate on par with the surprise, even though the BP is much longer. At the moment this very high turn rate is making the BP somewhat OP against similar ships, because the ability to angle, especially with the strong armour, makes it an exceptionally powerful 5th rate. I have a feeling many other hunters will not like me for saying this, but it is needed, in my opinion.
Base turn rate for BP is 4.23 (I think it should be closer to 3.5)
Base turn rate for Surprise is 4.11

That's all for now, I may think of more later. 

 


 

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Trinc heels a bit too much I think. It can be useful but I don't know if if that's correct. 

Also, do you think that if the gun ports of some ships touch the water or are a bit submerged, we should get an effect same as leaking?

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Please look into Bucentaur's stern. There is something wrong with its stern hp. It feels really tanky and not taking damage properly. 

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2 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

Please look into Bucentaur's stern. There is something wrong with its stern hp. It feels really tanky and not taking damage properly. 

Yes there is something happening here. Yesterday I had a moment where I stern raked a Bucentaure with a Bellona, had 32 hits (with medium guns, using normal ball shot) I killed 60 ish crew, took off almost 2 bars of structure, and yet I didn't damage the stern armour at all. The discord actually went pretty crazy laughing, because they thought I missed every shot, until they noticed the structure and crew. My thought was maybe the balls went through the windows..? But I've never seen that before. I know its possible with grape, but it seemed odd. 

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Wind should not constantly change at it is right now (I know it's a walkaround for helping people that getting stuck in shallows due to the heavy leeway), but it's not realistic at all that the wind is changing over 90 degrees every few minutes. Make it blow from rough the same direction and change it to over not more than 90 degree over the whole battle so fighting for the wind makes sense. 

Right now every 15 minutes the wind is changing, in a first rate fleet battle it will take over ten minutes to get a upwind position only to loose it after 5 minutes again. 

Edited by Eleven
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1. Wind changes in time are fine, but please consider viarable wind, stronger especially.

2. Heel is affecting some ships a lot and some barely at all. The calculations for it don't seem very precise and logical, but I will leave this to @maturin. Some ships that I would expect to heel a lot don't really heel much.

3. Same as above. Some ships seem affected a lot, some barely at all.

4. All fine, maybe ships drag is too big overall.

5. Many speeds of ships didn't change at all. Le Gros Refit is quite usless at the moment and it became dirt cheap from 150 PvP marks to what, 15? Not that it only became trash, it's super cheap, I feel like I wasted 150 PvP marks and best mods on mine and don't even use it at all.

As I am always mentioning, Santa Cecilia is in unchanged state since wipe, vast majority it doesn't bothet at all, but me as owner it does. Ship is too slow and has too weak armour, comparing it to Surprise gives me tons of questions while Surprise has more sails HP, speed, much better acceleration profile and turn rates, sailing profile, almost everything better and outperforming while Santa Cecilia is a ship of bigger size and more heavy, but as soft as Surprise and has as weak sails as Surprise while it looks to have much more surface area of sails.

Many old school ships came back to use, while some recent got pushed off. I am happy to see many Trincs, Surps, Indefs, Belle Poules, Endymions around, while importance and performance of Pirate Frigate has dropped (might need a tiny buff). Essex seems unchanged, I don't see it at all. Terrible tacking issues and not so great speed/sailing profile makes it not much of interesting choice to use. 

Wasa is still overpowered, but I love how the leeway and heel affects the ship making it much harder to use in bad hands. Nonetheless, good players still squize 100% performs out of it. @maturin said something that 32pd on wasa were specially adjusted for the ship with some differences.

From the shallow ships, can't comment rattlesnake (*cough* for obvious reasons), but Niagara seems to got nerfed. By that I mean sailing profile, used to be much better. The ship has very tall masts and lots of sails surface, I would expect it to heel more, but be faster with better profile. Not many players really use Niagara. Snow also lost a lot value in sailing profile since changes were done. Prince seems fine overall, privateers and lynx as well, but actually I would logically expect privateer to be faster downwind than lynx ( @maturin???). Mercury is more or less just a choice for PBs.

Battle Ratings of ships are still messed up. Now all PBs are just Wasas, Mortar Brigs and SOLs. Ociasionally some smaller ships to fill the BR gap. 

6. Snow & Essex huge tacking issues, but that's been an issue for ages now...

7. Eh, not much to comment really, seems fine.

Edited by Banished Privateer
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31 minutes ago, Otto Kohl said:

Constitution needs imho a slight turn rate buff.

This. Consti is a superfrigate, then it shall have a better turn rate than all the other 4th rates (which are SOLs)

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40 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Constitution - Painful to sail. It has serious trouble dueling other 4th rates in terms of maneuverability, and doesn't stand a chance vs. most 5th rates. I think it needs a buff to turning, could be rudder, yards, or a mix of both. The profile and speed are fine, it just needs help with turning. 

Indefatigable - A good ship overall, but it is completely ruined by the strangely weak rudder. The rudder health isn't different from other 5th rates, but there is something incredibly bad about the rudder placement or hitbox. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but if you ever get stern raked, the rudder breaks. It is without a doubt the worst ship I have every sailed in terms of rudder health. I realize there are mods to help buff the rudder health, but they don't fix the problem. I have tested them. I think it is just too easy to hit the rudder when stern raking, and if this were adjusted, the indefatigable could actually become a useful ship in PvP again. 
Side note: Strangely, the Agamemnon does not seem to suffer from the same weak rudder, in my experience. 

Belle Poule - Needs a small turn rate nerf, I think. It is strange that it has a turn rate on par with the surprise, even though the BP is much longer. At the moment this very high turn rate is making the BP somewhat OP against similar ships, because the ability to angle, especially with the strong armour, makes it an exceptionally powerful 5th rate. I have a feeling many other hunters will not like me for saying this, but it is needed, in my opinion.
Base turn rate for BP is 4.23 (I think it should be closer to 3.5)
Base turn rate for Surprise is 4.11

That's all for now, I may think of more later. 

 


 

About rudder, I guess you forgot about mercuries. They have just as much paper rudders as Indefs. Maybe Santis and L'Oceans should have more tanky rudders, as Victories don't really suffer much from it. 

Regarding Belle Poule, It is a bit longer, but surprise is in the same time wider and has better profile over BP. The ship doesn't seem overpowered, it has small guns and suffers from lack of bow chasers. It is just harder to kill it while it turns around crazy, but it's still easy to destroy its masts/sails and then kill. Have you seen many players use it? I know just a few fetishists :)

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23 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Yes there is something happening here. Yesterday I had a moment where I stern raked a Bucentaure with a Bellona, had 32 hits (with medium guns, using normal ball shot) I killed 60 ish crew, took off almost 2 bars of structure, and yet I didn't damage the stern armour at all. The discord actually went pretty crazy laughing, because they thought I missed every shot, until they noticed the structure and crew. My thought was maybe the balls went through the windows..? But I've never seen that before. I know its possible with grape, but it seemed odd. 

It happened to me also with other ships and in NPC combats: internal structure goes down but stern armor is intact

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20 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

About rudder, I guess you forgot about mercuries. They have just as much paper rudders as Indefs. Maybe Santis and L'Oceans should have more tanky rudders, as Victories don't really suffer much from it. 

Regarding Belle Poule, It is a bit longer, but surprise is in the same time wider and has better profile over BP. The ship doesn't seem overpowered, it has small guns and suffers from lack of bow chasers. It is just harder to kill it while it turns around crazy, but it's still easy to destroy its masts/sails and then kill. Have you seen many players use it? I know just a few fetishists :)

The turning is completely stupid on the BP at the moment. 4.23 base. Now compare to every other frigate. The only 5th rates that turn better are the Renommee and Cerberus. It feels like this was a mistake when entering the speeds. If I was to assign a turn rating for the BP going by the trend of length, it should be 3.23, instead of the current. That makes a big difference. 

Also, no the surprise is not wider. BP has 14 guns on the bottom deck, only the heavy 5th rates can match that. Yes they are 12 lb, but we all know how great the DPS on 12's is. Frigate, P-Frig, LGV, Surprise, L'Hermione are all shorter, but for some reason, BP turns better. 

The only reason you don't see them everywhere, is people haven't figured out it is OP yet. The lack of bow chasers are a problem, yes, but the turning should still be tuned. 

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Belle Poule is a very small ship, but smooth. Also, trust me you will never see many Belle Poules around, they are only good in the good hands and they will easly get killed by a good player. As simple as that.

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- 1 -
I really liked the subtle wind changes in portbattles we had before the advanced sailing patches were implemented.
Also if it was recently nerved from 130 to 90 degress, it still seems very random making formation sailing close to impossible.
Furthermore, fighting for the wind has became like the minigame we have - a pure thing of chance.

- 2 -
Heel is pretty nicely implemented, tho some ships (shallow ships with high masts) i would expect to heel a lot  more.
Would be interesting to experience different wind strengths, making some ships need to go 80% or lower to not get turned over (or saildamage?).

- 3 -
Leeway seems generally a bit strong, on the other side it should never reach 0% with sails down - the hull, esp. on tall ships generates a good % of leeway drag.
Maybe we could have an anker to stay on spot? Could be like the brace function, with preptime and cooldown? That could also be a logical nerv for the mortars, as they need time to anker to properly shoot.

- 4 -
Turnrates are generally believable and feeling good. The only thing bugging me is the utterly bad performance of ships like the Essex, im pretty sure that this ship could tack without getting in minus speed IRL. Maybe review those ships, proper tacking sail management might not be feasable to animate in the game, but should be simulated.

- 5 -
Speed- / windcurves seems pretty good, with one exception popping into my mind: the Victory - should be able to outsail the other 1sts upwind.

- 6 -
Taking time for most ships feels ok, with the exception of the Essex.

- 7 -
Downwind turning seems ok to me, no specific observations there.

Edited by sveno
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Buffs:

- Victory upwind sailing performance.
- Essex taking speed.
- Wasa BR (the other ships should be real alternative in PB's).

Debuffs:

- Thickness of ships 4th rate and higher.
- All thickness mods, please also no stacking.
- Please no stacking on masts thickness mods, maybe debuff their stats to, might need to tune the mastpen accordingly (smaller hitboxes?).
- Wasa thickness and maybe reduce crew # to debuff their broadside DPS somewhat (32pdr is historical).
- I think the leaks are bit much right now, generally, fights shouldn't be over after a single broadside (takes skill yes, but anyway).

Edited by sveno
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#MakeConstitutionGreatAgain 

I almost commit suicide when I sailed it for the first time after the patch.

Edited by Pablo Frias
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Ships differences...?!

What matters in NA is drastic players differences, the one that are real experts (PVP'ers), the average ones (RVR'ers) and the biginners.

The experts are mostly looking for PVP rewards, they're ready to spend hundreds of hours in NA

While biginners are looking for fun but their interest is fragile.

Issue: PVP'ers affect the player population

Solution:

==> Include a "player skill rank" that can be attached to his name (everyone can see it in OW or in Battles).

==> "Player skill rank" is the addition of kills/boardings

==> The higher the rank the higher the PVP rewards when killed. 

  • Biginners will result being lower interest PVP targets.
  • Experts will result being the hunted ones, it must be risky to be part of the NA elite players ("Cheaters" will have to assume their risky rank).
  • This "player skill rank" would progressively open access to special books as well as 1 life ship modules (not tradable).
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The new sailing model made lower 5th rates useless - renommee, l'hermione, surprise, pirate frigate etc. If they are meant to be used in pvp at all they could all use a boost.

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Mast HP/thickness needs buff for higher sections.

It is super easy to demast tops and mid sections, on many ships mast is gone with 1 ball hit. You can spray balls from 250-500m and demast ships while you can't penetrate hull and damage the ship. Thus, very often faster ships just get distance, demast tops from 250-500m and then they have a huge advantage. I would also review damage drop with distance. I can understand penetration drop, but there is no point shooting hull from 500+m because it deals almost no damage. Rule is simple 500+ meters, always shoot sails and masts. That destroys the combat.

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