Duplicating Bellonas

[Johny Reb]

Grapeshot 

• We still remember you were spreading the rumors that we give Russian updates first (you never apologized by the way)
• Now you spread conspiracy theories again
• Don't do it ever again please on this forum

This is a friend so I am going to defend him here. Saying that it is not hard to type, "don't use that exploit again," would hardly classify as a conspiracy theory. The dig and the rebuke was misplaced.

 

 

Now..Captains

We don't have to repeat ourselves twice

Please proceed to the following topic and read this rule

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2346-forum-and-sea-trials-rules/?p=134195

This rule is crisp and clear. 

Now I'm really confused. You said this in this thread, "This was reported by players and captains on the list were reporting this as well. We clarified the position that it takes time to sink the reinforcing enemy and thus is is no different from sinking an NPC at sea."

 

That quote has guided this whole conversation. Those using the mechanic point to it to justify duping ships now, and those that call it an exploit don't deny this interpretation. They are asking that you change your position. Now, some are calling for resets which I think would be unjust because you basically told people that its fine.

 

But, now you link the generic rule about exploits and reporting them and not abusing them. This is good but confuses the issue because in the quote it seems as if you don't define this behavior as an exploit so the link only applies to your criticism of the players that have not been reporting it to you yet are upset about it.

 

So, I'm confused again on what your expectations are so let me make some suggestions here and Ill start by asking some simple questions that I would appreciate if you could answer so that the issue is more black and white.

 

1. People are using their friends to spawn in rare ships so that they can capture and at times break down for recipes. Do you consider this an exploit?

2. If you do consider it an exploit are you allowing it for now because the next patch will fix it?

3. Those that are using this mechanic with an understanding that it is allowed, do they need to absolutely stop what they are doing?

 

If you simply answer yes or no to these three questions I think future activity and our conversation about it will be more productive.

 

To the players,

I think the admin makes a really good point in his last post. If you are so concerned about testing then why have you not reported these things. In the future I hope you listen close to the admins answers above should he side with those duping ships. A cheat and an exploit is defined by the makers of the game. If they deem the game to be working as intended then no cheat or exploit exists even if the same behavior in another game would be considered an exploit. The admin and dev have the right to define what is and what isn't one.

 

If the admin allows it for now then we are still testing the game to its fullest. Again the admin has the right to determine what needs to be tested and what doesn't. You all claim it about crafting. My guess is that the devs want us to continue testing many things within the game even if crafting is the newest installation and will produce the most opinions. If duping is allowed then we still are testing crafting. We are seeing how much of an effect this will have on the actual crafting model. I find, so far, that it helps it. Sure I can get into a rare ship quickly and I can probably find a nice one with minimal grinding but it also allows me to make a lot of money so that I can purchase the coveted 5 dura ships. So, in my personal experiece atm, it is anything but game breaking as it actually will put more money into the economy. What I do find worthy of bringing up is that it is super boring and I don't enjoy it. There is a sense of progression but their is no sense of accomplishment.

[furyGer]

pls stop this discussion and this problem.....

[Blackjack Morgan]

If NPC's were sailing around with Bellonas, Surprises, Belle Poulles etc. than this wouldn't even be an issue. However, that isn't the case and the only way to see the "rarer" ships are if they are player crafted it is rather obvious that we are dealing with at the very least an unintended mechanic. The devs saying they are "fixing" it in an upcoming patch also makes it rather clear this is an unintended mechanic....seems rather simple to me.

[marecek05]

First of all.

I have not witnessed the exploit while playing, so I had nothing to report to, but since there is a post in Tribunal, I voice my opinion on the breach of conduct despite not being the direct witness, as with most Tribunal matters. On the other hand I can attest that last week there were couple of constis and trincos at most. Now there are abundant Vics Bells and Pavels.

I don't understand how is this different than the gold exploit. Speeding up your resource (recipes are a resource) gain by using a deficiency in game. The gold issue has been dealt with swiftly and harshly. I just don't understand the double standard.

 

And in regards to Steels advice to Pierrick to get off the high horse and to also use the exploit, I have to say that, if this is where the community is heading, I am very disappointed.
When rakers were using some exploits (in my opinion they weren't really exploits, but rather unsavoury tactics) everyone hated them and there was a general war against them. Now there are people using real exploits and it is somehow ok? I don't get it.

 

As I said, I understand the focus is elsewhere. But in the end, the entry to alpha was closed to allow the devs to shape the core community to the standards of behaviour they are expecting from all the players. And standards need to be enforced.

[Charles Caldwell]

And in regards to Steels advice to Pierrick to get off the high horse and to also use the exploit, I have to say that, if this is where the community is heading, I am very disappointed.

 

I have to agree with this.

[Daniboy3000]

Well calling people cheaters, without any prove is also not very nice...

[LeBoiteux]

This is a 3 issue matter :

1) a technical one : Admin wrote this exploit'll be fixed. Great.

2) a moral / ethic one : Admin clearly wrote Devs and NA community are against exploit. I agree as most of us.

3) a pragmatic one : some "honest" players don't want to be at disadvantage compared to current exploiters. I can understand even if it is a player's view, not a tester's one. I don't know what devs think of that advantage. To me, it's currently just a testing phase. Wipe's coming. And as long as exploiters don't ruin NA development from devs' view, it's fine to me. I don't care of exploiters' temporary advantage.

 

Moreover, Admin wrote devs will deal with that later... Time to take it easy, isn't it ?

 

My non-exploiter tester's view.

 

PS : we, testers, shouldn't use ethics to support pragmatic purposes.

Edited October 30, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[OlavDeng2]

This is a 3 issue matter :

1) a technical one : Admin wrote this exploit'll be fixed. Great.

2) a moral / ethic one : Admin clearly wrote Devs and NA community are against exploit. I agree as most of us.

3) a pragmatic one : some "honest" players don't want to be at disadvantage compared to current exploiters. I can understand even if it is a player's view, not a tester's one. I don't know what devs think of that advantage. To me, it's currently just a testing phase. Wipe's coming. And as long as exploiters don't run NA development form devs' view, it's fine to me. I don't care of exploiters' temporary advantage.

 

Moreover, Admin wrote devs will deal with that later... Time to take it easy, isn't it ?

 

My non-exploiter tester's view.

 

PS : we, testers, shouldn't use ethics to support pragmatic purposes.

this, we are testers, we should not be punished for use of exploitation(even though personally im against it), however as soon as it is up for public sale the use of exploits should be met with huge consequences for those who used the exploits(depending on the type and severity of the exploit of course), all is getting wiped after all soon anyways.

[marecek05]

this, we are testers, we should not be punished for use of exploitation(even though personally im against it), however as soon as it is up for public sale the use of exploits should be met with huge consequences for those who used the exploits(depending on the type and severity of the exploit of course), all is getting wiped after all soon anyways.

 

I am afraid that is oversimplification. We are not only testers, but also players and core of the community that will form after the full release.

Those 100 players that are online will form the structure. We have organized groups smaller and larger for every nation in game. With the influx of new players these groups will provide model for others and as such, their behaviour must hold up to scrutiny.

After all that is why the alpha access was closed right?

Until now every "exploit" scandal has been dealt with firmly. The damage farming in sea trials after cerberus and navy brig was launched. Threats of hard punishment with one being actually handed out (although he deserved it more for his behaviour on these boards). Money duping scandal - Hard punishment threatened if not remedied by players. All that in order to shape up the core community and help testing.

 

I cannot see how this is different from these two? Point of this build after wipe was to test economy and crafting. Is crafting really thoroughly tested? Then give everyone every recipe and lets focus on testing something else.

 

[LeBoiteux]

With the influx of new players these groups will provide model for others and as such, their behaviour must hold up to scrutiny.

After all that is why the alpha access was closed right?

No, that was for a technical reason : a small player base was enough for data collecting and wasn't a threat for the stability of the server.

(Not an expert about that. Admin wrote about that. Easy to find posts about that.)

[marecek05]

No, that was for a technical reason : a small player base was enough for data collecting and wasn't a threat for the stability of the server.

(Not an expert about that. Admin wrote about that. Easy to find posts about that.)

 

I remember it being hand in hand. Too many new players behaving like asses and thus wasting resources that could have been used for development instead of community management, while the number of players sufficient for testing. But I might be mistaken too. I found only a post in the news section, but I remember a post here in tribunal. However since the OW amnesty and all posts being deleted I cannot find it. Maybe some other veterans with better memory can correct me, if I am mistaken.

Edited October 30, 2015 by marecek05

[LeBoiteux]

Marecek, problem is we all agree with your ethics concern. Admin wrote and has shown us it was a very important matter to GameLabs'.

 

But this thread sounds more and more like a broken record or my old driveling granny.

 

Admin is aware of that issue. He said it'll be managed. Now what about letting devs work peacefully on other important issues ?

If nothing is done against exploits in the next days/weeks/months, you'll indeed be entitled to raise the issue again.

 

And believe me, ethics is as important to me as it seems to be to you.

Edited October 30, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[pepepotamo]

For me the problem is easily solved, all those "cheaters" who is found to cheat with gaps in the game to have additional advantages over honest players who are rank beginner again with the initial ship 0 XP and 0 gold; problem solved, I do not think many will dare to continue using these traps.

[PIerrick de Badas]

The problem is that some has recieve recipe from ships and some have not.

Easier way to solve this unbalance is to give to everyone in redamable the shisp reciepe on bellona/consti/pavel/victory that are the ship that have focus the issue

 

Atm, craft have been tested enought and now that the system has been broken, it seems fair to balance again the testgame we have by making everyone equal facing this reciepe problem.

[Schuetzengel]

cut the baby in half and wipe everybody

[Powderhorn]

Actually, wiping everyone would be one of the solutions at this point. A targetted wipe now would go against something many people hold dear: We don't do ex post facto laws.

Admin has already said that it was OK in the beginning. The issue here isn't one of punishment - to punish the players now would be wrong. The issue is that the judgment flies in the face of what has been stated as rules elsewhere AND precedent as to how previous exploits were handled.

This has as well evolved into a question on ethics and testing. "What does it mean to be an ethical tester, and do we demand that standard from all testers?"

[balticsailor]

Also i see using duping ships as a exploit, i don't belief it justify wipe, after all farming pavels yield approximately the same amount of gold, exp and resources you will get from farming AI 74 fleets, being only a bit easier, also gold and exp are not really a big issue atm (i made more then 2m gold by crafting ships befor i even knew about that duplication thing).

 

The biggest problem with the duplicating is, it makes it difficult to judge if the recipe drop rates and production rates for the big ships work with the current amount of players / crafters.

[Blackjack Morgan]

I really hate the "these 20% of the population knew what they were doing and decided to repeatedly do the wrong thing but now you all are going to pay for it". That is just sloppy leadership or management if you ask me. If people who have been using this exploit can be identified then they should be the only ones who have any type of punishment. As I said their are captains who were doing this from a particular nation that have been at the heart of this discussion just last night! AFTER it has been well circulated that it isn't supposed to be going on.

[Powderhorn]

Blackjack, nobody likes mass, indiscriminate punishments. It would have made sense to do a targetted wipe in response to the initial post. However, after admin gave it the green light, it is wrong to change the ruling AND retroactively punish people.

As I said a page or two back, at this point we are in a situation where nobody can walk away feeling that justice was done, and that needs to be addressed.

[PIerrick de Badas]

admin:

We didn't report it ingame becaue we didn't know it was possible to act like that. When i joined Koba BOT against sweden, i didn't understand why he was not wlecoming our help with joy. I didn't know this trick and ws not thinking someone should use it as i didn't know it exist.

When i learned it exist, i understand why i suddently see large fleet of pavels and victory.

 

But as you said, it's not going to be punished, and it's not going to be allowed next patch.

 

So they idea now is to balance the game again:

 

- Wipe everyone (but it's not going to improve pop)

or

- Give evryone what exploiters have got (db and reciepe).

[Pagan Pete]

cut the baby in half and wipe everybody

NEVER!

​I have hand crafted beautiful vessels that I love.

 

I WILL NOT be punished for the actions of others!

[Konali89]

Justice will be done when the game goes live and we are gratefull for these ''abusers'' for pointing out the bugs and exploits that become possible when you are in a alpha stage. In an Alpha stage, you will always find game mechanics that can be (ab)used to get you an advantage over others.

 

Now there alone lays the main point of this whole thing. Those that exploited it, gained an advantage over others. The admin made a statement that it was allowed to use it untill it got fixed. Meaning, if you feel unjustice has been done to you and others gained an advantage, what was stopping you from using this time period to do the same. Those that did not take use of this , are testers. Those that did take abuse of this situation which completely ruined the crafting iteration of this build are players.

 

In the end you need both at this stage to come to a final product with as less flaws and bugs as possible.

I did NOT use this time period to get those recipes faster or XP faster. But i also do NOT judge those that have done so. Because in the end, it was allowed, and that is the only thing that worries me.

In the future, we will look back to this case and argue, what is an exploit and what is a gamemechanic, that has been exploited. In my opinion, both are the childs of the same thing '' alpha stage testing''. But since there is no constistency in terms of what is an acceptable exploit and which not. We have now come to an point where in a similair case, this will be used as referall point and unclear motives and behaviour due to these unconsistent choices.

 

In the end, if you think objectively and straight forward, we all know why these players will not be punished and should not.

- It is way to time consuming for the admins to find out which a case of legit reinforcements and which was not.

- These players that did use this flawed mechanic have done so, under the flag of '' its allowed''.

 

So what point of view you look this from, whatever your own mindset is. In the end, we as players and testers can do nothing in this case and have to look forward. It will get fixed and the damage that has been done to this crafting patch is unrepairable. We have to look forward and accept we test a game where situations like this will occur many times more.

The only thing that worries me will be,  Whether it is an game mechanic that is being exploited, or an exploit on itself, it will be unconsistent from now on, due to this case solely alone.

 

That does not mean, i feel everyone should be punished , in the end this is in the nature of people. And like many before me have claimed, all will be wiped anyhow.

So look forward and lets give this a rest, because we all know, in the end , how sour it may be, these guys did the GAME an favour and that is our endgoal is it not?.

 

Konali

Edited October 30, 2015 by Konali89

[pepepotamo]

Well now it is that now we have to be grateful to those who cheat and take advantage of them, come, we will do all the same, so we help the game ...., what stupidity! it's a joke? do not?

[Konali89]

Well now it is that now we have to be grateful to those who cheat and take advantage of them, come, we will do all the same, so we help the game ...., what stupidity! it's a joke? do not?

Don't you love it when you write an entire reply and people take one sentence out of context:)

 

You my friend are a short-term thinker. If you have read my story you will have noticed, that there is NOTHING we can do. And in the END this whole situation only benefits the game, whereas we all will loose everything during alpha testing.

[Johny Reb]

After the admin answers my three "yes or no" questions I hope he will lock this thread. It is quite obvious that the bulk of the community does not think that the way players are gaining access to rarer ships is the way to go. Does anything more need to be said? Let the admin make his decision, clearly state it to us(by answering my three questions) and lock the topic. We all can then go back to playing the game and deal with it like adults.