Discussion on Etiquette: Shooting Through Friendly Sails / Masts

[Grim DeGrim]

Good? Bad? Friendly-fire-against-rules? Or, situational and often required?

I'll give a few examples:

1. Two lines 900 meters apart, calm seas, and you're all of a sudden blocked by another friendly. Ok to fire?

2. Same example, but you're both at battle sail, and your ranging shot clearly does not do sail dmg... Fire full broadside?

3. Storm map. You've ranged in... You're biggest ship (purely for discussion), waves are just right...but you can see that friendly coming send it is almost certain you will hit their sails, but you will land your broadside.

What do you think?

Edited February 26, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Personally, I don't put a full broadside through the main sail area of a friendly.  I have led or trailed a ball or two through a flying jib or spanker as the boat drifted into the very first/last part of my broadside, but the real risk you run with a full broadside through the sail plan is taking down a mast, which would be bad for your team.

 

So:

 

1 - no, I shiver the sails and let the friendly by.  

2, definitely not.  I'm worried about taking down/weakening a mast.

3, if that friendly is coming, and I might trail a ball or two through the flying jib, I'll generally take the shot as that single ball isn't really going to do appreciable damage.

[Grim DeGrim]

Hopefully the options provided do not appear biased. And I recognize that are a multitude of scenarios.

FF = Friendly Fire

My bias: at risk to self here, I consider the answer to be "situational". The challenge... Is that it tends to be subjective to the person making the determination (ie, I think it's OK / good tactical decision at this moment, but ultimately, the teammate receiving FF might feel differently).

In order from the top:

#1: I can't justify it, no matter what. Even if my teammate "deserves it", this kind of FF is unacceptable.

#2: Borderline... In this situation, at most any range, is typical ask my teammate first to get their ok. It is relatively unlikely I'll do mast damage... But if I take out a mast, it will probably end up in a tribunal (if I did not get their permission).

#3: I would not even hesitate to fire. Nor would I ask permission. I might not even apologize (!). Edit... To soften a bit... My logic is that in heat of battle, damage to friendly mast could be worth fully broadside to enemy hull... And of course I would be sorry, but just no less resolved on my decision...

Just my thoughts. I'm curious what you think...

Edited February 26, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Galileus]

IMHO:

 

1 through 3: I'm fine with it as long as all people concerned behave appropriately. Aggressor saying sorry, "I had to make the call" is fine enough for me. Because that is true, he had to make the call.

 

For me, there is no unacceptable singular case where you "have not to or be damned". Unacceptable cases would be bad behavior on either side, repeating offence when asked not to / call for clearing LoF and such. Unacceptable case is obviously shooting when you're certain a good percentage of your broadside will hurt your teammate instead (not - as well as) of the target. Unacceptable is using your teammate as a stepping stone. Shooting through sails? While it might be a hard call, it's exactly because it's a hard call I do not expect anyone to call it right every time every scenario. There are stress, nerves and adrenaline involved. Making up any kind of scenario and saying "it's unacceptable!" is - honestly - a bit ridiculous in my book.

 

There are black and white scenarios. Shooting through sails ain't one of them. By rule of thumb, I would go with "forgive and forget unless forced otherwise".

[Jacques de Montagne]

No way to justify it, most of the time it causes a delay of a few seconds and there are only a few and rare scenarious I can envision in which you absolutely have to get this shot through, as in raking a 1st rate with your own 1st rate. Especially when sniping, the potential damage to your teammate is much worse than a few seconds of delay to your volley - which is all what you loose, just a few seconds.

[PIerrick de Badas]

in a santissima yesterday i asked maybe 5 times in a battle a surprise to go out of my arc and our of my way.

The battle was really blody. On the end, the 2 fleet were alsmot down. My santi have full broadside on right and few on left but ennemy force us to stay on the right using the edge of map to do so. The surprise keep sailing in my arc on my left. An ennemy bellona was fighting me. i ask the surprise to move. I asked it again. I begin to track shot the bellona. I shoot all broadisde on bellona through sails.

 

When we will be in clan with TS it will be different but atm, some players may not understand english or be as afk ig looking for movie on second screen or i don't know what.

But when you know a battle can be won or lost, or at least your ship can be sunk or not, by shooting through sails, i think you have to take this hard decision to damage an ally to win a fight.

[Sunde]

If im in one of my 1st rates, and find myself beigen blocked by lets say a friendly cerberous "in the heat of combat" I will usually tell the cerb to move his ass, and that if he comes between me and my target again i will just fire. The only time i would ever fire through a friendly's sails, would be if A-hes sinking anyway. B-the target on the other side will sink if i get this broadside into him - however if he gets to fire again, i will too be sunk. Only in desperate situations should one fire through friendly sails. Those that do this recklessly when they could have waited or told the frindly to move first make me sick.
My 5 cent.  

[Iñigo Montoya]

I normally don't shoot.

[Grim DeGrim]

Great feedback. Just popping to say that the tone is very civil in the thread, and that is good...

Perhaps it is to say: no one wants to damage a friendly, but perhaps in dire scenarios it could be warranted with the appropriate appologies afterwards.... Sometimes things are not so black & white.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Grim DeGrim

[Crankey]

No way to justify it, most of the time it causes a delay of a few seconds and there are only a few and rare scenarious I can envision in which you absolutely have to get this shot through, as in raking a 1st rate with your own 1st rate. Especially when sniping, the potential damage to your teammate is much worse than a few seconds of delay to your volley - which is all what you loose, just a few seconds.

 

I have to disagree here, I have repeatedly requested much smaller ships to get out of the firing arc of my 1st rate so that I can engage the distant target. It isnt as simple as waiting a few seconds as your opportunity to fire can be lost, especially if loaded with double ball and is extremely range or arc dependant. Smaller ships simply should not be between your SOLS and theres especially when line fighting, In a general melee things can get more mixed up and friendly blocks more likely but less frustrating as this is the nature of a general close melee.

 

Some players completely ignore the chat and any semblence of fleet co-ordination as a result the dps from your team is reduced to that of a cerberus while he continues to stay in arc.

 

I had a trincomalee dancing in front of my Santi only 2 days ago, I repeatedly asked him to clear my firing line and he continued to tack and wear back and forth close to my ship preventing me firing. even my final probably 4th or 5th plea to " PlayerX pls pls pls pls get out of my arc so i can fire on Target X" had zero effect.

 

You also sadly have the fact that some players are simply stupid when it comes to team play.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Crankey

[Grim DeGrim]

Lol... There goes civility! But I hear your compliant clearly (you are correct).

[Hethwill]

Hard call.

 

If the judgement is correct and the full broadside is a winning move, I might. If not I rather try another approach to the situation because I might need that captain down the line to save my stern one never knows, right ?

 

Better is to prevent and as a ship of the line rear admiral do tell your companions in frigates to keep spacing and line up or spread from the outer board of the main line of battle. Than way they can move about and cancel any enemy frigates trying to come through and also have enough room to exploit any gaps.

 

I cannot remember the last time I totally shot through someone's rigging if not in dire need of sinking the enemy vessel RIGHT NOW.

[Domestikos]

Some days ago in a pvp a surprise(can't remember the player's name) was just near the broadside of an enemy victory.The surprise was in a really but state but his position was blocking my vic's starboard broadside to fire effectively on the enemy victory to seal it's sinking.

 

The player, in honour to him, sent message to allied chat to fire my broadside ignoring the fact that hisship  was there in the way acknowledging the fact that it was more important to sink the enemy vic than his survival.I thanked him for his self sacrificing act and didn't fired my broadside cause enemy vic was already sinking.

 

From the above i have to say that if a player allows you to fire through his ship's sails, you do it, you don't fire on your own abusing the fact that you have a bigger ship or a target of opportunity.Respecting the allied plyers gameplay is above targets.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Domestikos

[GreatScott]

Completely situational, however, I would say 95% of the time it should be avoided.

[Sir Cloudsley-Shovell]

Blatant action of this kind SHOULD face sanctions.There are however instances where this can happen by accident,but good Situational Awareness would reduce the occurance,

[PrezesOi]

I will not command my crew firing their comrades-in-arms on the nearby friendly ship, only because the captain of this ship is an idiot. No enemy is worth it. This is my private role-playing.

If I happen to do this unconsciously, I apologize.

Edited February 26, 2015 by PrezesOi

[Grim DeGrim]

Well, maybe I need to realign my thoughts.

Appreciate the feedback.

[Outsurgent]

I wouldn't shoot. I might fire a ranging shot through the sails if they're at battle status or lower, so I don't actually damage a sail, otherwise nope, I wouldn't risk it. I know I'd probably notice and be a bit annoyed, so I won't do it to others. Although I'll fire if an ally is on the other side of an enemy and I have a clear line of sight to that enemy-cause that's just war!

[Austrum]

Try to avoid if at all possible to be honest.  However last night I did have one ship where while on the surface the angles for my shots clearing the friendly and hitting the enemy looked good, in reality his forward motion carried him into my shot range on two separate occasions and at least a few of my rear guns shots just flew over his front quarter deck.  Also, I can't lie, just before the enemy sunk, he was completely masked by the friendly ship so I did actually send a full broadside through my teammates masts HOWEVER and this is a BIG HOWEVER, this was the absolute last enemy in the match and we were in no danger of losing the match.  Would never do this IF ship loss or repair and rearm was in the game, nor would I intentionally do this prior to maybe that last shot of the match.  However, considering the state of how unimportant winning or losing or taking damage is, at this point, who really cares as long as your not ruining someone else's fun.  I know I could care less if a few shots hit me when the match is all but over.

[Lord Hood]

Friendly fire was a regular occurrence of the age. I would state that you should do everything in your power to avoid it however in the pell mell battles that most seek out it can be hard to avoid and in turn could indeed force the opposing ship to surrender. That being said the other day in a Trincomalee I was hit directly via my allied Victory that pretty much put me out of action and not the enemy. Nevertheless if it isn't blatant I see no cause to get angry and understand that damaging the enemy can indeed lead to a bit of blue on blue.

[Flip]

I shot through a friendly surprises sails in my santi long ago but he had no amour left and no repairs, and was thus sinking. Wouldn't do it otherwise.

[Don Alvarez]

I avoid firendly fire any more at all cost. I used to try and cut some of my shots pretty fine if I had a friendly in close proximity, but I stopped doing it when I accidentally put a few roundshot through a friendly's sails and before I could even bring the chat up to apologize he'd already started firing a series of ranging shots into my hull followed by a chat hissy fit. Needless to say, I just stowed my apology below decks and decided from that point its better off not finding out who is a douchebag and who is not. If I think I'm going to hit a friendly, I'll wait for a clear shot because honestly if I hit him, thats one less ball that goes into a belligerent anyhow.

[M G]

1: No

2: No

3: A resounding yes. As has already been mentioned, the firing opportunity is not as flexible as some would like to think. Having to wait for a friendly to finish his or her pass between you and your intended victim is time that should not be wasted. If you can squeeze your broadside in and only clip the friendly jib/spanker, then I say it's only to be expected.

Situational awareness is demanding, but an absolute priority for co-operative action.

[Sharpe]

1: no

2: no

3:maybe, it would depend mostly on the angle of my opponent. If there 's a chance that I'll hit him, Ill hold fire.  

[Steelfury]

I'd never fire a full broadside through a friendlies sails unless they repeatedly and obviously persisted in blocking my shot, which I can never recall happening, however, I'll happily let a shot or two trail through a mast if the situation warrants it (e.g. a rake on an enemy sol).