Admiral Howe of Gibraltar Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, admin said: Our goal is to have all timbers to be useful and unique in something, with obvious negatives in other things. Let's take fir for example Firs bends well that's why they resist pressure better when masts are under pressure of wind, and even damaged they keep some HP. That's why Fir ships have more splinter damage resistance and more mast hp. But it's a soft wood so it should be penetrated very easily Fir a fast because its 31lb per cubic foot vs white oak 48 per cubic foot when seasoned ships are lighter and accelerate faster I know it might not be the best combat wood, but its the best escape wood as no-one can catch you if you dont intend to fight. It is also a best interceptor wood as you definitely faster than anyone and can help a heavy support group stop someone And perhaps its a very good kiting wood as you have amazing turn inertia and speed and acceleration as your thickness penalties are not so obvious from 500m This was a theory of course, practice will show The fact people don't see benefits of fir means they are not good enough as they should be obvious. On the other hand the mast thickness is overdone in some woods and should be tuned. We see battles lasting much longer (in heavy ships) Might I get some confirmation on the low drop of new woods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 20 minutes ago, Admiral Howe of Gibraltar said: Might I get some confirmation on the low drop of new woods? New woods are brought from distant lands and are very rare and extremely expensive. 17 hours ago, z4ys said: In my opinion... timbers should randomly spawn on the map and schould stay at a location for a short amout of rl days before chaniging location (it could give regions where specific woods If the new timber supply is very low but stable. Then - New woods must be sold by traders in predictable places so you don't have to wander around searching for them. Current prices for rare woods will get even higher Malabar teak will stay without contracts a control group. But we think players will eventually prefer to be able to buy it at high price using contracts than to camp the port. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitasalato Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 17 hours ago, z4ys said: In my opinion... timbers should randomly spawn on the map and schould stay at a location for a short amout of rl days before chaniging location (it could give regions where specific woods would spawn more often so people have a rough idea where to look for those woods) That would only make them harder to find. Players with multiple alts and a lot of time on their hands will be able to search the whole map non-stop while more casual players will have no chance. With a known spawn point and contracts instead casual players will be able to set high buy prices and at least have a chance of getting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genevieve Malfleurs Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 21 minutes ago, admin said: Our goal is to have all timbers to be useful and unique in something, with obvious negatives in other things. Let's take fir for example Firs bends well that's why they resist pressure better when masts are under pressure of wind, and even damaged they keep some HP. That's why Fir ships have more splinter damage resistance and more mast hp. But it's a soft wood so it should be penetrated very easily Fir a fast because its 31lb per cubic foot vs white oak 48 per cubic foot when seasoned ships are lighter and accelerate faster I know it might not be the best combat wood, but its the best escape wood as no-one can catch you if you dont intend to fight. It is also a best interceptor wood as you definitely faster than anyone and can help a heavy support group stop someone And perhaps its a very good kiting wood as you have amazing turn inertia and speed and acceleration as your thickness penalties are not so obvious from 500m This was a theory of course, practice will show The fact people don't see benefits of fir means they are not good enough as they should be obvious. On the other hand the mast thickness is overdone in some woods and should be tuned. We see battles lasting much longer (in heavy ships) all true and interesting! I appreciate that frigates finally can have masts that don't fall immediately. for the longer fights: we couldn't sink each other yesterday with Vickys in the PZ. If you don't believe me, Reverse might have a havier word than I do. He was there as well and might give his opinion on that matter too. Else: I love the variety of woods! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, Riot stick said: This is 'fine woods' resurrection! That's not because fine woods were random for everyone forcing to build timber farms and click like crazy (boring). If you clicked more you got more wood (no uniqueness and no choice). You could not ignore it. As you had to have fine woods as many had them. Current design has a huge difference. You can get it. And if you did get it nobody else did. And the supply is so small so you can ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChineseBatman Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 14 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said: What I like: Nothing Remove them, there's simply no need for them. The more woods you bring in, the more unbalanced the game has become. That’s just not correct though. The old meta of speed capped ships was overpowered and easy street. Read what I wrote above. That is exactly how it was... and exactly how it is now. The speed cap, run and reprint meta has been addressed as it should have been. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitasalato Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) On 6/19/2020 at 6:49 PM, admin said: What you like, what you don't like, what you would change and where problems are? Whats good? so we can add more things like this to the system. What I like: The gap between seasoned and non-seasoned wood is now reduced, allowing for strong but cheap builds The new rare woods just introduced does not outclasses the old woods when considering all of the stats Now there is a wide variety of mixes each with its own strength and weakness and no absolute better. What I don't like Some of the stats like Repair time, repair amount, splinter resistance, are still not visible in game increasing the learning curve for new players Availability and delivery of new rare woods will most likely bring inequality, where only players/clans with great amount of time and resources will be able to buy these new woods. Problems and suggestions Consider making the new woods, and maybe even seasoned woods, drop as loot with low chance and low amount (100-300) from different sources like: Bot Traders, Sealed bottle wreck and maybe even wooden chests. Add all the missing stats in game. I have two suggestions: Simply add the missing stats (Repair time, repair amount, splinter resistance, ...) in the stat cards with accurate values Don't add more stats in the stat cards but give more narrative to each wood description. Example: Quote This <very soft/soft/hard/very hard> wood is <very resistant/resistant/prone/very prone> to splintering and <very easy/easy/hard/very hard> to repair. Edited June 21, 2020 by Vitasalato Typos 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holm Hansen Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 11 hours ago, Redman29 said: No, I was comparing frames. Adding in LO/WO vs Locust/Sab is adding an entirely new set of values in there. But still, LO has 2200 more side hp and 3500 more structure hp in return for having 6 less thickness and .3 knots slower. That's almost 6k hp less hp, that is not a small amount. Not to mention, the repair..... It's a trade off, yes the Locust ship is a little bit more versatile in that with that level of thickness you have more options, but doesn't mean LO/WO is useless, actually far from it. no, it's not useless. But it doesn't bring this group of players looking for exactly the same features they found on LO/WO before the patch to the same degree as it now brings Locust/Sabicu. You can see how important these properties were to them, by the fact that they are even willing to accept a not insignificant speed penalty for it. If they had looked for HP then they would have chosen WO/WO before the patch. So for the satisfaction of the players who had been looking for exactly these properties and now still do it, it has become a kind of useless, because exactly these properties what they are looking for, have been put on another wood-combo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan van Santen Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Redman29 said: No, I was comparing frames. Adding in LO/WO vs Locust/Sab is adding an entirely new set of values in there. But still, LO has 2200 more side hp and 3500 more structure hp in return for having 6 less thickness and .3 knots slower. That's almost 6k hp less hp, that is not a small amount. Not to mention, the repair..... It's a trade off, yes the Locust ship is a little bit more versatile in that with that level of thickness you have more options, but doesn't mean LO/WO is useless, actually far from it. Holm and I are PvE....the timing of repair (restoring hp) is much different from PvP as ai doesnt shoot sails. So is the influence of speed as warship ai doesnt run away from player In short : armor thicknes is way more important than hp. Ive done a few testruns in high lvl kill missions (eg 1 LO vs 2 ai LO) pre patch: armor thicknes always resulted in faster/smoother fights compared to hp/speed builds. Edited June 20, 2020 by Jan van Santen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoatyMcBoatFace Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 thickness allows you to make mistakes and get away with them speed allows you to dictate fight but you cannot make mistakes HP allows you to respond in fights because u have disposable ship to throw about 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChineseBatman Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, BoatyMcBoatFace said: thickness allows you to make mistakes and get away with them speed allows you to dictate fight but you cannot make mistakes HP allows you to respond in fights because u have disposable ship to throw about More or less how it is now. As before speed capped ships with a slight tank was overpowered. I don’t think we need to discuss that as it’s obvious. You could run reprint, run reprint, make lots of mistakes and run away, or even still get the kill when you mess up, simply by just running and reprinting lol. The run and reprint meta of speed capped ships has been addressed as was needed. Now if you go speed build like fir/wo you are not substantially faster so you need to choose you’re targets wisely, make smarter decisions, and the skill requirement to play these faster builds will be higher. As let’s face it the run reprint meta was easy street. Now will either need to commit to a fight you can win, or run early on, if you make the same mistakes you took for granted before, you are far more prone to going to Davey Jones locker. Will no longer be able to make half a dozen mistakes run reprint and run when ever you feel like it. Far more situational now. I like it. Edited June 20, 2020 by ChineseBatman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kejsaren Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Yes speed allow you to dictate fight in beginning but the skill level of opponent decide if you can make mistake and get away with it. Unless you stay at distance kiting but that won't keep me in battle anymore so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iroquois Confederacy Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 5 hours ago, admin said: New woods are brought from distant lands and are very rare and extremely expensive. If the new timber supply is very low but stable. Then - New woods must be sold by traders in predictable places so you don't have to wander around searching for them. Current prices for rare woods will get even higher Malabar teak will stay without contracts a control group. But we think players will eventually prefer to be able to buy it at high price using contracts than to camp the port. While I understand the mindset behind "new woods are brought from distant lands" - from a game play perspective, if woods are in predictable places than they will encourage people to stay in port and wait for woods. If contracts are allowed, all it does is separate the "haves" from the "have nots" - those with large clans supplying huge amounts of money will always have the best, in essence, the best will always get additionally buffed. Contracts in single locations further remove all room for enterprising captains. There is no room for the smuggler, the merchant, or the explorer to actually find these things. It is instead watered down to "if your clan is already the richest, you will additionally be able to have more options and better equipment." What could be a fun and exciting mechanic is instead just... another click. As such, I highly, highly encourage you to find a lore-based reason to have woods spawn in random ports at different times of the day, so people who are actually willing to get out of port, sail, and explore have a real reward for doing so. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman29 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Never said: Locust still seems overpowered. Compared to a Teak frame, there's barely a loss of speed/hp, repair is only about 20s longer and you get a massive boost in armor thickness. I guess we need time to test how it will actually works in practice with the slower turning/reps. But at least on paper it doesn't seem to have much of a downside, specially for large fighting ships. Live Oak and Greenheart for example give you a huge boost in HP but at a much higher loss of speed. Plus we also have to consider that even normal Locust is giving very high thickness that make it even comparable to much rarer woods. Is it strong yes, OP no. Compared to Teak yes it is really strong and makes T/WO basically obsolete. Compared to LO, they are comparable and trade offs. Normal locust may have one of the highest thickness values but has one of the lowest structure values. At 7% it is only slightly better than Riga Fir and Mahogany. Personally, I believe Locust (S) speed should be nerfed by -1 to -2% and Locust should be nerfed -2 to -3%. That would bring it more in line with the heavier woods like LO, African Oak, and Greenheart and open the gap between it and the teaks. This will still make it useful and open up options on how you choose to build your ships. Note: I'm writing a more detailed post on the other thread that I will finish hopefully tonight. Edited June 20, 2020 by Redman29 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redman29 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Holm Hansen said: no, it's not useless. But it doesn't bring this group of players looking for exactly the same features they found on LO/WO before the patch to the same degree as it now brings Locust/Sabicu. You can see how important these properties were to them, by the fact that they are even willing to accept a not insignificant speed penalty for it. If they had looked for HP then they would have chosen WO/WO before the patch. So for the satisfaction of the players who had been looking for exactly these properties and now still do it, it has become a kind of useless, because exactly these properties what they are looking for, have been put on another wood-combo. 2 hours ago, Jan van Santen said: Holm and I are PvE....the timing of repair (restoring hp) is much different from PvP as ai doesnt shoot sails. So is the influence of speed as warship ai doesnt run away from player In short : armor thicknes is way more important than hp. Ive done a few testruns in high lvl kill missions (eg 1 LO vs 2 ai LO) pre patch: armor thicknes always resulted in faster/smoother fights compared to hp/speed builds. In regards to same features before. Do you realize that you lost 2 thickness in the change? Yes, it no longer has the highest thickness values as that now rests with Locust, but LO fared extremely well with the changes compared to other woods say like Teak, and especially better than the softer wood such as Fir. I mean Pre vs Post change For a Buc 113 thickness is the highest now, but 108 is still a significant amount especially considering the previous cap was 110 and as far as I know nothing has been done with the guns. And 3000 hp, 5600 structure, and .5 knots in exchange for the loss of 2 thickness is quite significant. I understand where you are coming from, but the "nerf" to LO really wasn't that bad. Note: I'm writing a more detailed post on the other thread that I will finish hopefully tonight. Edited June 20, 2020 by Redman29 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrago Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 All new woods — and all trade goods — should be carried by AI traders. The ports receiving the new woods should change around. The info on which ports might be receiving that day would be in the trade tool. This would create PVE hotspots which creates PVP hotspots as we’ve seen happens during special ship events. Then those special woods would have to make it to your ship building port. More game opportunities! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holm Hansen Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Redman29 said: ... but the "nerf" to LO really wasn't that bad. ... hmm... i´m now guess that we misunderstood each other at the beginning. When I wrote this: "for me clearly the loser of this patch", i meant that it lost in the ranking in a category which was the reason for many players to choose it. And so it will no longer be the wood of their choice. Which then leads to them being dissatisfied with their choice of that time .... and finally with their current ships. Sure it is still good in the thickness category, but there are better ones now and it is in the nature of such games that you want to use the best what is available. I did not mean that it was nerfed in ther values ... and also not in the usability. On the contrary, it is the case that i really appreciate the new features of LO/WO on one of my ships. But it affects only one and i would prefer to convert all the others, ... if i could. Edited June 20, 2020 by Holm Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Redman29 said: Is it strong yes, OP no. Compared to Teak yes it is really strong and makes T/WO basically obsolete. Compared to LO, they are comparable and trade offs. Normal locust may have one of the highest thickness values but has one of the lowest structure values. At 7% it is only slightly better than Riga Fir and Mahogany. Personally, I believe Locust (S) speed should be nerfed by -1 to -2% and Locust should be nerfed -2 to -3%. That would bring it more in line with the heavier woods like LO, African Oak, and Greenheart and open the gap between it and the teaks. This will still make it useful and open up options on how you choose to build your ships. Note: I'm writing a more detailed post on the other thread that I will finish hopefully tonight. Main problem with Locust is not that it's too thick but it doesn't suffer penalties like LO or Greenheart that are extremely slow at turning. LO and Greenheart get good benefits but their off alot of speed and and get huge turn inertia. Locust should also suffer similar penalties to turning not just speed. Thought I maybe would also argue that if it makes TWO 'obsolete' then it is by definition OP. Edited June 20, 2020 by Never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botq Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Theres very very little difference between non S and S wood. Why bother crafting it or doing privateer fleets ? It should be buffed back a bit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) If the differences are this small, shouldn't seasoned wood be easier to obtain? It hardly seems worth all the effort. The full seasoned Bellona would end up costing at least 6 million reals more than the non seasoned. It would cost about 300% to 400% more money to produce the seasoned ship. Edited June 20, 2020 by Never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kejsaren Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Botq said: Theres very very little difference between non S and S wood. Why bother crafting it or doing privateer fleets ? It should be buffed back a bit For god sake no, we finally heading right direction... instead make seasoned woods easier to craft. Edited June 20, 2020 by Kejsaren 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) Worth 25 to 30 million reales more? Edited June 20, 2020 by Never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botq Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Kejsaren said: For god sake no, we finally heading right direction... instead make seasoned woods easier to craft. How so ? Right now we have wood which is much stronger than normal wood (teak/white etc etc) and which is only obtainable in selected ports for selected group of people (either people in a nation which has the wood in their ports or people who have enough alts) and also only obtainable for rich people who can fight the bidding war. How can polish players for example get the new wood ? Seasoned wood was way more accessible than these new wood (either just from pvp and getting chest or privateer fleets). Right now from economical point of view you can rather craft non S ships and hope for purple/gold than making the ship seasoned which makes it really funny if we take in account the needed effort to get S wood. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Howe of Gibraltar Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Kejsaren said: For god sake no, we finally heading right direction... instead make seasoned woods easier to craft. This gentleman is absolutely right. Seasoned woods were destroying the experience for people like me who run a business and must be 24/7 available. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoatyMcBoatFace Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) fir is much terrible now than before. it was always the softest and fastest wood. now its not the fastest, but it is the weakest. the mast change means anybody spamming random ball broadsides can pen your masts at 200m easily. and i know people who do only that in battle.. how long before you get demasted from across the battlefield? what fun. what balance! wow much use! much skill gameplay! Edited June 20, 2020 by BoatyMcBoatFace 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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