Pay to Win DLC

[Licinio Chiavari]

51 minutes ago, Diceman said:

NOBODY is crewing a 3rd rate right out of the gate... they gotta have the rank/crew numbers and the lower level DLC ships help them in getting that rank...

I seriously doubt that someone who is fully crewed in a 3rd rate DLC doesn’t have a fair level of experience in this game. 

The difference is if that casual loses his DLC he isn’t financially ruined and forced back to 6th rate ships for days or weeks... he’ll be back for you to sink next redeem cycle. 

And having more people to sink is bad how??

- leveling after exam to demi-crewing a SOL is not long and can be rushed. No way that "having the crew" means knowing how to handle a ship. Any ship

- see above.

- sailing an underperforming ship makes lack of experience (let's face it: NA is experience based, not "skill" based) even worst.

- no. Definately no: just seeing ppl on SOLs having a zero clues. And it's a old issue... that still lead to vocal requests of (definately unneeded) nerfs on smaller ships.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Licinio Chiavari

[Diceman]

9 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

- leveling after exam to demi-crewing a SOL is not long and can be rushed. No way that "having the crew" means knowing how to handle a ship. Any ship

- see above.

- sailing an underperforming ship makes lack of experience (let's face it: NA is experience based, not "skill" based).

- no. Definately no: just seeing ppl on SOLs having a zero clues. And it's a old issue... that still lead to vocal requests of (definately unneeded) nerfs on smaller ships.

It’s obvious that you did not read my post. 

 

[Torrente]

Alternative accounts: OK everything is correct.
DLC: pay to win, Redoutable overpowering: you have to change it.

Why should I see limited the usefulness of a DLC for which I paid money after assessing its characteristics? If that is done, I will consider it a scam and I will not be the only one.

From what I am reading, many like to have more players even with DLC, if those DLC only serve to be sunk or for secondary work.

 

[phantomswake]

{"I just want to counter that by saying the biggest long term hurdle is not the ships, but the upgrades you put on them. Those are far more costly and harder to come by in a prolonged conflict than the actual ships. 

DLC ships, even if they are a 1st rate will not get around that fundamental setback. Therefore a fleet of DLC of 1st rates vs a fleet of crafted ships with upgrades will be at a disadvantage. Just like crafted ships with nothing on vs crafted with the goodies.  Not to mention dlc port bonuses are so random more often than not you get terrible ones "}

 

This is a fair point, however its not hard to slap mods onto a ship (any ships for that matter). You only need the mods in your warehouse storage. If you mean the sailing mods, well that is another story, they only come with sailing the ship. However on a long enough timeline,  these mods are easily filled as well. Now while these two things are important to flesh out the ship and are more time intensive or resource connected they in the grand scheme of things only buff the ships capabilities or specialize the ship to a particular play-style. What really makes the most difference on a ship is its firepower capabilities (namely gun capacity), and is exactly how the ship rating system worked.

To take your example if a fleet of DLC vs Crafted fought each other who would have the advantage/disadvantage? Well if I am in the DLC Ship fleet even if I only take out half of your fleet, I can still come back with the same amount tomorrow and every day after that. Eventually you will have lost your crafted and I will have lost only what mods I threw into them. That is attrition on an end game scale.

Edit: Think PANTHER TANK vs T-34.....whch was better? irrelevant consider who can produce more than the other and you have the more important variable. 

When you take the manufacturing out of the resource game and put the power behind a pay wall it will have an affect on the game. I don't think in a good way. So I think the situation is way more delicate than people want to admit.

Edited February 11, 2020 by phantomswake

[phantomswake]

"They get their ship every 24 hours .. my fragile ego can handle that"

 

If you had to fight a fleet of DLC ships attacking your crafting harbor every time it was vulnerable would your fragile ego handle that? At what point is it to much?

 

[phantomswake]

"I'd like a definition of winning in an mmo before people whine like this."

 

Pay to winning in an mmo (my definition) = When the difference between paying for an in game advantage and playing the game vanilla is insurmountable therefore being forced to buy the content to compete on an reasonable level.

I thought the purpose of the DLC is to make accessibility and time saving, if it gets to a level of strategic advantage, and circumvents built in game mechanics on a global scale, has it not over stepped its intention at that point?

edit: PS: thanks for allowing me to use the word "insurmountable", I rarely get to use that in a sentence!

Edited February 11, 2020 by phantomswake

[phantomswake]

"You were ok as long as Herc & Requin DLC farmed the shallow, and you could farm the rest in crafted Christians ^^"

Guess you missed the part where I said I didn't think the La Wreck was healthy for the game. Honestly on a small scale level 1 v 1 / small gang battles DLC really has less of an impact as far as I am concerned. I am more concerned with it on a global attrition scale. How will 1st rate / 2nd rate / 3 rate affect our port battles, or nation fleets. Edit: and or Economy / Crafting.

Edited February 11, 2020 by phantomswake

[Yoha]

7 hours ago, admin said:

We do not see your theory happening in the Bahamas. Why? 

Because small ships are cheap to replace. 

[Yoha]

4 hours ago, Diceman said:

 

I totally disagree with your point.

I feel DLC makes the game more healthy. It allows the casual player access to higher level fights. That’s good!

It decreases the fear of losing your one and only high level ship, thus encouraging more fights. That’s good!

It gives the hardened vets more guys to sink because there’s more fights... That’s good!!

Hopefully that casual that’s playing more because of DLC... expands their gameplay to more deeper into levels getting more involved in more parts of game, thus getting more people in the game... that’s good!!

More people playing this game is a good thing. High level ship fights are more fun and everyone wants to get in on that... why exclude the casual player??? Making a class of ship (1-3 rates) an exclusive club only will cause more people to leave and spend their gametime somewhere else where they can be competitive... 

 

Casual players typically don't splurge on DLC (they cost more than the game!). I'm a casual player. I'm also an Admiral, so I'm not rushing into big ships...never have.

It's mostly the hardcore pvp-ers who buy the DLC. It means they can pvp more and do less econ. All the hardcore pvp-ers in my clan have the 3rd rate DLC and most of the others.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Yoha
Typo

[Farrago]

6 hours ago, Staunberg😇 said:

Me personally I would buy it. If they hadn’t implementeret friends list and port bonus, maybe not, depend how grindy the game is. But as it is now, Well I can just go fight and have fun.

This. And seasoned woods.

It is clear and has been since way before release what the pain points or bottenecks to gameplay are. But rather than solve those issues, they have been in some cases even increased. The business plan chosen was to provide DLC which ease that pain to generate income. If you don’t buy the DLC, you can play, but you’ll be so miserable you’ll eventually give in and buy or move on. I would have preferred a subscription model.

Anyway, those arguing that DLC should be reduced in value/usefulness are wasting your time. No company looks for ways to make its products less useful to the customer.

 

[Guest]

First off - stop comparing a Redoubtable in fine woods with another 3rd rate or even a 2nd rate in normal woods. If you want to make the comparison you need to have equal stats on both sides.

Fx. A redoubtable vs. a bellona:

The bellona is faster, turns slightly better, sligthly less deceleration (good for turning through the wind) and the bellona has a slightly better sailing profile.. It's broadside is neglible less than the redoubtable and even if we regard the carros there isn't much difference.. The largest difference is the dpm difference between the 36pd compared to the 32pds, but that isn't a major difference.

This is the baseline.

Now we can add rare woods. Let's take a bellona in teak/WO with port bonus' from SJ vs. a redoubtable in teak (s)/WO (s), with the port boni of my last redoubtable: (actually my last redoubtable only got gunnery 2 and mast and rig 2, so let's take another example) The redoubtable gets S3, H2, G2,C2 and mast and rig 2, I think most can agree that it's a meh drop but reasonable in so far the RNG is reasonable..

Now the redoubtable has improved armor (5cm on the sides), slightly improved hp (2300 on the sides), and reloads 2.5% slower, has 2.5% less penetration, 2,5% worse aim.

This imo is reasonably balanced and have in mind will u that it is possible to craft the Bellona in seasoned woods wich markedly removes the advantages of the redoubtable except the hp advantage.

To state that the redoubtable is OP is simply an uninformed opinion.. I can recommend ppl use this tool for making comparisons, pls notice that the redoubtable in the tool is fixed for 32pd cannons. https://na-map.netlify.com/

10 hours ago, Captain Reverse said:

more RVR - more action. More action - more online. More online - more follows in Reverse Game. All happy, im - 100%
DLC Rediii grup cant win RVR vs Craft Rediii grup. Why? Becouse
Becouse craft ships better than DLC

Agreed.

 

[Mad Dog Morgan]

DLC ships aren't P2W but they are definitely Pay to Play unless like me you are happy to sail cheap 6th rates or have hours a day of free time to grind towards the crafting or purchase of ships you want to use. 

But that's how devs generate DLC sales, by making the alternative a time consuming pain in the ass. 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Urchin

[Louis Garneray]

If we want more people playing the game let's remove the permit wall for the regular ships.

[admin]

2 hours ago, Louis Garneray said:

If we want more people playing the game let's remove the permit wall for the regular ships.

Permits have zero correlation with online of the game. 

 

7 hours ago, phantomswake said:

 

if it gets to a level of strategic advantage, and circumvents built in game mechanics on a global scale, has it not over stepped its intention at that point?

 

No.
But there are other opinions on this subject of course.

Some people disagree with the implementation, some people just hate DLC because its fashionable to hate DLC. 
Those people were complaining about Hercules when there were stronger ships than Herc, then they complained about 5th rates, when there were stronger ships than 5th rates, and this circle goes on. Suddenly Hercules is no longer p2w, but the new new thing is. 

We tried to reason with them as we valued all opinions. But as you probably found in modern world and polarized politics it seems people don't want to listen to arguments of the opposite side. Some of them even complained to Steam about Rattvisan being a 4th rate even sent Valve screenshots from threedecks, some sent lies to youtubers to catch attention (like claiming that we dont allow ANY topics to be started on Steam forums)

Ships are not P2Win because they dont guarantee the win and they always have better alternative in game. There are other opinions of course but there are other opinions on everything. We cant get distracted by them, and recommend you stop getting distracted by it. 

I am not sure why this conversation even started, as we already mentioned couple of months before. 
First rate Imported ship is coming!

It will be an old style HMS Victory with proper bow figure and stern balconies that will 

• Bring more PVP
• Bring more RVR
• Fund new ships and new content.
• And save time for people who have kids and families
• And it will win against snows, frigates, 3rd rates and 140 gun santisimas
• And it will sink to snows, frigates, 3rd rates and stronger ships. 
• And it will be beautiful. 

 

 

[Malcolm3]

40 minutes ago, admin said:

Ships are not P2Win because they dont guarantee the win and they always have better alternative in game. 

They are not Pay-to-Win, but they are actually Pay-to-Play, because same or better alternative in game is very hard and time consuming to obtain with all those Seasoned Woods and random permits (so random - 9 chest and not one permit). Hope at least something will improve with forthcoming patch.

40 minutes ago, admin said:

First rate Imported ship is coming!

Are you going introduce 1st rate DLC? Despite you promise that no 1st rate will be DLC here:

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Malcolm3

[admin]

32 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

 

Are you going introduce 1st rate DLC? Despite you promise that no 1st rate will be DLC here:

 

 **** that old promise. 

• First it was given when we only promised 10 ships and 3 maps, we could afford 10 ships and 3 new maps, but community wants more and somebody will have to pay for it. 
• Second i grew older and no longer have time to grind, these ships are for the older me. Younger me can still grind and have even better ships. 
• Third, Do you want new content and post about it? Would you agree to code them for free? No. I cant find free programmers unfortunately.

+ Some people already consider that we have already broke all promises.  We were bashed on the bases of linguistics (even on youtube) for keeping the promise when we introduced a promised 4th rate. Why endure hate for keeping promises?  Or trying to change the promises (release wipe). 

And yes. No more promises, we burnt hard on the wipe and 4th rate debacle, and were left with no emotions. 
 

PS. The post you linked does not contain any confirmation of your statement, we were talking about old discussions there. 

[Mad Dog Morgan]

While a 6th rate might not be worth a DLC, combining two or three 6th rates into one DLC would be.  Throw in a 6th rate trade ship and that could make for a nice starter pack for new players. 

Secretly I was hoping to see the LGV Refit make a return as DLC but as per your latest dev notes, returning in any format is good news.

[z4ys]

18 minutes ago, Urchin said:

While a 6th rate might not be worth a DLC, combining two or three 6th rates into one DLC would be.  Throw in a 6th rate trade ship and that could make for a nice starter pack for new players. 

Secretly I was hoping to see the LGV Refit make a return as DLC but as per your latest dev notes, returning in any format is good news.

My hopes are high that the combat Indiaman will be a dlc too. But yeah "manage your expectations" is the mantra here

[Busterbloodvessel]

 

1 hour ago, admin said:

First rate Imported ship is coming!

@admin Can you clarify the term 'imported ship"? I assume this means a DLC but is this correct?

Thanks.

Buster (Mono lingual)

[Kubrat]

16 hours ago, phantomswake said:

"I am not getting where are you leading to? Are you just on random things because you hate games with DLCs?"

Whoa, hey now I think if you read, I even said that I thought some of the DLC has healthy reasons to be there. Please don't conclude that because I don't like the DLC in the 1-3 rates that I think all DLC is bad for the game. I think that there are bad DLC sometime and I think they can hurt the game. One of my examples was the La Wreck, I think it has balance issues, which is different than why I think 1-3 rate DLC is bad. Has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with keeping your high end play / content viable, and not watering it down. Part of a game is accomplishment and being able to just buy an end game ship is in dangerous territory I think.

World of tanks for example has teir 10 tanks that are payed tanks, but they don't have port battles and a persistent world, so different games are different in implementation.

 

Admin has pointed out, several times now, that you can cap a 1st rate in 2 mins (well for me 8 minutes) that will kill the redoubtable.

The point he is making and you are not getting is that in this situation your contention that the end game is broken has no basis.

You've had your 15 minutes, can we move on now?

[Never]

As long as the non DLC ships remain useful and balanced then please keep on bringing us great DLC ships. Looking forward to the new Victory

[Sea Archer]

I see the main problem with the dlc ship in the effort you need to craft a comparable ship. Especially the doubloons have to be earned somehow, the other mats are not so difficult to get, except for seasoned woods of course. 

[Malcolm3]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Some people already consider that we have already broke all promises.

Not all, but at least some of them. But actually that is side story

The main problem is still around - you are too centered on battles, not on the Open World where all actions take place (even Kill missions - you have to sail in OW to their locations). And in the OW we have not only battles. It's politics, economy (crafting and trading), some exploration and naval war on large scale with planning operations, logistics etc. But you think only of "grab you ship, arm it with cannons, buy some repairs and go to fight" - arena-style, not OW sandbox MMO as it seems at first glance. Even when the latest rise of online population was mostly due to making trade (OW activities) profitable again, not because of DLC.
And considering grind - it was you who made Ships-of-the-Line much more hard to get (that was understandable) leading to more grind and time consuming work, and now to ease that immense grind you offer players other way as paid DLC. Wise move and successful one.

So as nothing changed then I can just repeat (and you can reread) my posts about it in the aforementioned topic, but better just give a link.

P.S. By the way there are also cited many of your statements about SoL DLCs. The one that I cited here is just the latest one.

P.P.S. For both content and DLC - introduce Whaler Ship DLC, so people will have to pay for ability to whaling and get money from it ingame.

[Licinio Chiavari]

I never liked the full ship DLCs.
Both due to making some ships seen as "for free" (while none is: real ship costs very often lies on modding more than simple hull) and especially because it could alter the game economy.

Changing how DLCs are is obviously unfeasible at the moment.

Still I'd repeat my old proposal to save both sides of the equation without cancelling anything of the privileges of DLCs but reducing both issues:

DLC:
redeemable full ship on 24hr CD - the ship will be always blue quality and of any chosen wood.
Port bonuses will be capped at 3 per category with a minimum of 9 points randomly awarded (sincerely, redeeming a gold ship with Hull-1 and Crew-1 is more unnerving than other).

OR

player will redeem ship permit (eventually on a shared 48 hr CD - meaning that on 48hrs you redeem or 2 ships or 1 permit) usable to craft the ship as any other one.
Tradable or not-tradable permit would be more a matter of taste: not-tradable will upkeep the DLCs only on DLCs owners. Tradable would allow simpler crafting for all and also not-DLC-owners to try out some ships. 

 

- From a shop perspective DLC owners will get MORE than previous (the option to craft their preferred ship).
- all redeemed ships having demi-decent port bonuses (the minimum of 9 points) and seasoned wood will be "decent".
- a redeemed ship will be still less performing of a crafted one (always blue and with port bonuses capped at 3 as maximum).
- really competitive ships will be always crafted, both being DLCs or not.

What about this @admin?

Edited February 12, 2020 by Licinio Chiavari

[erelkivtuadrater]

3 hours ago, admin said:

It will be an old style HMS Victory with proper bow figure and stern balconies that will 

• Bring more PVP
• Bring more RVR
• Fund new ships and new content.
• And save time for people who have kids and families
• And it will win against snows, frigates, 3rd rates and 140 gun santisimas
• And it will sink to snows, frigates, 3rd rates and stronger ships. 
• And it will be beautiful. 

Im just wondering then.

Why can the dlc ships explicit redeem as the best woods? 

• Today they are used to break up to get seasoned woods which indirectly is a game exploit since you have other playable game mechanics that gets you the same result, so why are even breaking up dlc ships possible? This contradicts your statement for quick pvp, rvr and content.

If they there for quick pvp, rvr and new content, why cant they be locked to oak oak if that's mostly their purpose?

• And if you wanted it to be crafted into something else you could add that particular material to the mix to change the stats. Since these ships are of its own brand, it should be possible to redeem a blueprint of the ship instead and craft it of the prefered woods and bonuses.

 

One thing i would change though is that all the redeemables are linked to the server reset and not the 24h mark

Edited February 12, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater