Redoutable better than Christian

[Dalai Lama]

5 hours ago, admin said:

you should not tie yourself to an outdated rating system abandoned by british as soon as they realised that RATE system does not mean anything. Displacement, broadside weight this is what determines ship.

Can we have Connie and United States back in 4th rates then too? With this argument it doesn't make any sense to keep them in 3rd rate system at all, for the sake of immersion.

[Malcolm3]

26 minutes ago, admin said:

BRs will be rebalanced with guns and upgrades

Will this rebalance be like described here, so BR will be changeable with stats for woods and modules?

 

[AeRoTR]

@admin can you please remove normal wood selection for DLC ships ?

It makes no sense, and confuses new players. Why would anyone redeem a non-season wood DLC ship ? Please remove the complication.

[John Sheppard]

Sorry guys i have been away form the game for some months and haven't been reading all the patch notes but weren't we told many times that there would not be a dlc lineship? I'm confused coz this seems like a proper lineship jugding from what other people have posted? did that somehow change or i'm missing something? (Not sarcastic just a genuine question from someone who's not up to speed with everything)

[Malcolm3]

7 minutes ago, John Sheppard said:

Sorry guys i have been away form the game for some months and haven't been reading all the patch notes but weren't we told many times that there would not be a dlc lineship? I'm confused coz this seems like a proper lineship jugding from what other people have posted? did that somehow change or i'm missing something? (Not sarcastic just a genuine question from someone who's not up to speed with everything)

Yes, they changed their mind about Ship-of-the-Line DLCs.
You can read it here (and later on that topic also):

 

[John Sheppard]

I see, thanks for the link

I have read some of the posts by admin on this issue and altho i can accept that ine small engagement you can say that this new ship is not pay to win and can easily be countered by crafted ship i see a very important issue that i would like @admin to consider :

I think currently the average nation can produce maybe around 5 seasoned 1st rates per week maybe a bit more at peace time but just an average fiture , i suspect usually it's lower than this
Asuming there is an average of 3-4 important port battles per week on which you will lose way more than 5 seasoned 1st rates usually that quickly becomes a problem . If this limitation applied to everyone it's not such a big issue. BUT

If another nation can pump out 20+ of those new seasoned DLC ships PER DAY and if i understood correctly from your post you intend to introduce even 2nd rates DLC , how does another nation that doesn't have this capability is expected to even consider fighting this nation? It is in that conext that many experienced port battle players in this post and the other one have sayd that this is Pay to Win because it simply can't be countered by anything , ordinary non seasoned 1st rates would just melt or be too slow . I've seen a lot of people arguying that building lots of seasoned christians is better than building only a handfull of seasoned 1st rates as the stats suggest an easy win due to the high ratio of hitpoints+firepower versus the tactical mobility of a fleet of seasoned christians which can dictate the battles and easily maneuver to the circles while the enemy slow 1st rate fleet will just be able to sit at 1 circle or risk being split , isolated and killed 

 

Please kindly consider this , and tell what is your proposal to this big problem . We can also start offering suggestions if you accept this

Thanks

Edited January 31, 2020 by John Sheppard

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

12 hours ago, Teutonic said:

i'm surprised we didn't see the power creep coming 😘.

It brings up my previous worries. 

I am cautious in saying the 4th rates at least have some balancing factors, like the inger being the fastest downwind beats, and wapen being super powerful in close brawls. but when you start adding more and more DLCs, it gets hard to argue for crafting.

3rd rate DLC, and these stats frankly look pretty uh....worrisome. the ship has similar, if not better stats than a christian before port bonuses?  DLCs also get random port bonuses too, sometimes that means it's scary good.

it's a shame that we don't try and balance the ships we have in the game due to historically reasoning of "these ships were just straight up better" statements. While I completely understand that some ships were in fact, better then others....it begs the question as to the reasoning for having so many ships choices in the game when they barely get used.

 

example: Essex, anyone been sailing this ship within the past month for PvP? no chasers, low HP value, average stats, nothing special.

Essex has excellent sailing qualities, is a find boarder, good shaped hull, detailed model.... yes, I do sail her in pvp quite often.

 

[Wardog]

On a Side no unrelated to the main discussion, I feel like it would neat if the Redoubtable would have a chance of coming with the "Redoubtable Refit" trim. It would be fairly harmless unless you were going for a heavy defensive boarding fit. And since it's the only trim named after a ship-which itself is now in the game I feel like it would be neat without really changing anything major.

[Carl_infar]

28 minutes ago, John Sheppard said:

I see, thanks for the link

I have read some of the posts by admin on this issue and altho i can accept that ine small engagement you can say that this new ship is not pay to win and can easily be countered by crafted ship i see a very important issue that i would like @admin to consider :

I think currently the average nation can produce maybe around 5 seasoned 1st rates per week maybe a bit more at peace time but just an average fiture , i suspect usually it's lower than this
Asuming there is an average of 3-4 important port battles per week on which you will lose way more than 5 seasoned 1st rates usually that quickly becomes a problem . If this limitation applied to everyone it's not such a big issue. BUT

If another nation can pump out 20+ of those new seasoned DLC ships PER DAY and if i understood correctly from your post you intend to introduce even 2nd rates DLC , how does another nation that doesn't have this capability is expected to even consider fighting this nation? It is in that conext that many experienced port battle players in this post and the other one have sayd that this is Pay to Win because it simply can't be countered by anything , ordinary non seasoned 1st rates would just melt or be too slow . I've seen a lot of people arguying that building lots of seasoned christians is better than building only a handfull of seasoned 1st rates as the stats suggest an easy win due to the high ratio of hitpoints+firepower versus the tactical mobility of a fleet of seasoned christians which can dictate the battles and easily maneuver to the circles while the enemy slow 1st rate fleet will just be able to sit at 1 circle or risk being split , isolated and killed 

 

Please kindly consider this , and tell what is your proposal to this big problem . We can also start offering suggestions if you accept this

Thanks

I'm sorry but  i m a bit confused. 

Now   big  nations  and big  clans can pump  out huge  amounts of OP crafted  ships  while  small  nations  and small clans  cant.

The DLC  at least  will give some small fighting chance  to small nations, clans and people who  cant spend their whole  time  in NA only . 

Maybe  for weterans  who can  afford each  crafted ship  its wrong  as  they  are  used  to enjoy  not only skill   but also  ship  stats superiority 

For all others  its  a good  thing. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Carl_infar

[Jan Bellaq]

I sailed Redoutable (t(s)/w(s)) in game, solo against Wasa and Bellona. Its a real monster, fast (more then 12knots fully laden), durable (thickness 92 with one upgrade), with firepower of second rate (as current 36pdersy are almost same as 42pders), 690 crew. Its very fast on OW (Wasa could not catch me), it turns great in instances (dont look on the turn rate, it has very strong yards). In its current state its pay to win ship. I very liked how the developers tuned Ratvisan after release, and i hope Redoutable will have some weakness even non historical, to make other craftable ships (like Buccentaur) worth their price in CM's and materials. BTW with current BR i can already see the PB spamming with 10 Red and 2 Req on 5,7k BR. Every day free battle setup...

[John Sheppard]

1 hour ago, Carl_infar said:

I'm sorry but  i m a bit confused. 

Now   big  nations  and big  clans can pump  out huge  amounts of OP crafted  ships  while  small  nations  and small clans  cant.

The DLC  at least  will give some small fighting chance  to small nations, clans and people who  cant spend their whole  time  in NA only . 

Maybe  for weterans  who can  afford each  crafted ship  its wrong  as  they  are  used  to enjoy  not only skill   but also  ship  stats superiority 

For all others  its  a good  thing. 

 

 

It doesn't solve the problem and small nations will still be likeley steamrolled even if they have full DLC fleet while the big nation only crafted ships for the simple matter of numbers , Small nation will be consistently screened out and overwhelmed , simple as that (doesn't matter if you have 10 seasoned ships or 100 if you only have 10 captains available at any given time)
Your own argument can be exactly highliting the point me and other people have raised . You want a small nation to win just because they have more money in their pockets or willing to spend it nevermind the huge difference in economy or infastructure between the 2 . If the small one does actually win thanks to the DLC how is that not EXACTLY pay to win as you've just rendered the huge ammount of effort and infrastructure of the giant obsolete?

It's like expecting that a small nation like (i'm picking those 2 as they are of the smallest in europe and it's unlikely anyone from them is playing this game) Moldova or Albania could easily take on and win against Germany or USA or whatever. Pls adjust your expectations to reality

Edited January 31, 2020 by John Sheppard

[Carl_infar]

41 minutes ago, John Sheppard said:

It doesn't solve the problem and small nations will still be likeley steamrolled even if they have full DLC fleet while the big nation only crafted ships for the simple matter of numbers , Small nation will be consistently screened out and overwhelmed , simple as that (doesn't matter if you have 10 seasoned ships or 100 if you only have 10 captains available at any given time)
Your own argument can be exactly highliting the point me and other people have raised . You want a small nation to win just because they have more money in their pockets or willing to spend it nevermind the huge difference in economy or infastructure between the 2 . If the small one does actually win thanks to the DLC how is that not EXACTLY pay to win as you've just rendered the huge ammount of effort and infrastructure of the giant obsolete?

It's like expecting that a small nation like (i'm picking those 2 as they are of the smallest in europe and it's unlikely anyone from them is playing this game) Moldova or Albania could easily take on and win against Germany or USA or whatever. Pls adjust your expectations to reality

The difference is such that every nation can buy DLC, not everynation can Craft op ships easyly And crafted ships of big nations always will be better ,not to speak about the expensive mods the big nations and clans have in much larger supply.

The DLC atleast slightly levels the Field for smaller ones and the ones with less time.

The most complains i see are from weterans who i guess are afraid to loose to much of the edge they have

 

Near equality feels like opression for the ones who are used to total superiority

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Carl_infar

[Player RUS]

Why do DLC ships have an advantage in building from (s) wood? While players who don't have DLC need to spend a lot of time and money to build a ship out of (s) wood? DLC ships from (s) tree are much better than normal ones and this gives them a great advantage, I think this is not correct. You need to remove the (s) tree from the DLC ships, then they will be equal.

[erelkivtuadrater]

16 hours ago, admin said:

you should not tie yourself to an outdated rating system abandoned by british as soon as they realised that RATE system does not mean anything. Displacement, broadside weight this is what determines ship.

Christian is a light 3000 ton mid century ship of the line built for low depths (giving him higher turn rates than usual). 
Redoutable and Duguay Trouin are advanced 3200-3400 tons ships of the line designed by one of the most talented ship builders Sane. 
(hms victory is 3500 tons btw)

I am not going to cut Redoutable  weight just because do not like it. Captain Jean Jack Lucas wont forgive me. 
 

allright! HERE WE GO! so you want to compare it to the outdated system the british changed in rates.. ok.. Well infact, get the sources out because this will get interesting. 

1817: RN includes carronades to the gun count.

1856: New rules for what was a SOL, still counted on cannons and crew.

"The rating system of the Royal Navy formally came to an end in the late 19th century by declaration of the Admiralty. The main cause behind this declaration focused on new types of gun, the introduction of steam propulsion and the use of iron and steel armour which made rating ships by the number of guns obsolete." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy . the wiki page use sources inside the RN.

Maybe we should also get in steel ships or even battleships from the 20th century because of course the RN found out those ships were better then the old ships of the lines? What about shell cannons that came into service after the Napoleonic era? because as you say the RN found out that the normal cannons were obsolete to shell cannons which were more accurate, had better penetration and further distance?

 

BTW! The ships looks great though  Congratulations, but IMO the BR should be tweaked there after because RIP Bellona

Edited January 31, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[John Sheppard]

1 hour ago, Bryan Von Gyldenloeve said:

Dlc ships do imo not make a small nation strong in RvR. But maybe,  just maybe they lose there fear of losing there crafting port, and will no longer bullied by a stronger nation, to do nothing.

From a casual point of view maybe the casuals will arrange:

- Friendly Pb, with dlc ships over non important ports.

- Arranged OW battles in dlc ships .

It might get more ppl in to PvP and RvR.

even so there still exists a problem that 2 nations of aproximately equal or atleast competitive size are not balanced if one side has much more access to DLC ships , for example if they are dirt cheap in their country as oposed to most others and it then creates the problem of one side needing to go into astronomical ammount of effort (especially with new changes to LCs) to even have a chance to make a few ships that are of comperable quality to the DLC ships. Not to mention that in some cases there are not even enough tools droping to even come close to making as many ships as needed (depending on how many ports drop them and how many your nation has access too)
If DLCs gave you only the permits then it would not be a problem.
 

Edited January 31, 2020 by John Sheppard

[John Sheppard]

1 minute ago, Bryan Von Gyldenloeve said:

But that we allready have when we look between Big and smal nations. Bigger can do more than small. Why should the balance only be on dlc and not on nation size, port bonus and so on. Why only balance on dlc ships? Balance is imo way more than dlc ships. They dob’t break the balance as much as pop size and portbonus

Because the difference is so huge . A difference between small and big nation , atleast the ones that can realisticly fight (i'm not talking about biggest vs smallest coz in that case the smallest will and SHOULD lose) , is like the bigger one can afford to make let's say 5 ships per week while the other can make 3 or something along those lines . You can still fight at those lines but not if one side will need weeks to ammass a second fleet if they lose while the other side can just snap their fingers and attack the same or the folowing day , most importantly they can attack completely recklessly as they lose absolutely nothing , while the side that needed 10-20 people working for a week just to produce one ship will be very reluctant to put them in danger 

I hope you can agree with that simple truth?

[Earl of Grey]

At least the 3rd rates are the working horses now. A repeated demand of many 😊

[Jan van Santen]

Comparison in the OP uses 32 pdrs, afaik Redoutable is supposed to carry 36 pdrs, eventhough https://na-map.netlify.com still shows it with 32s ?

Also: have 36 pdr special guns been added to elite loot ?

 

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

40 minutes ago, rediii said:

Sad times are incoming with 2nd and 1st rate daylie DLCs and the easy access to seasoned woods that is coming with these big ship DLCs.

Breaking up these ships already yielded a high number of seasoned logs. Now it will be even more.

Why? You think it´s bad that plenty of players have access to the good materials? We´d better have no special stuff at all. But as long as the game provides it, it should be accessible for as many as possible.

[Georg Fromm]

More and more ships at the push of a button, I assume only a few recognize the contradiction to a game with economy and logistics

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

10 minutes ago, rediii said:

Hidden behind a paywall.

I´d prefer a monthly payment as well, but somehow they must be able to earn money.

[erelkivtuadrater]

27 minutes ago, rediii said:

Cosmetics would have been better.

But yea. Remove breaking up ships or remove the drop of s logs and its a bit better atleast ...

i would love this, but i know they wouldnt do it now, because they would be afraid of people "asking" for refund, But let it be possible to buy ship notes from VM would be something that could work. Say if you do alot of RvR you can save up to buy 1x Le Redoutable each week, it would of course be better to have the DLC, but the option would be there.

Edited January 31, 2020 by erelkivtuadrater

[Mr Pellew]

Without having read most of what is above from my experiance in fights last night I would say a Christian is still better than a redoutable in most cases. 

I agree with redii that the braking up of DLC is not the best mechanic ever as it gives seasoned woods. 

Also I would much rather fight a fleet of redoutables in screening than AI capped fireships so as long as we don't get even stronger DLC ships I think this might be a good thing for the game. Obviously only time will tell but right now I am liking it.

[Corona Lisa]

Whoops, just another broken dlc ship

[erelkivtuadrater]

@admin ? also if we're going from the gunport being able to hold the cannontype, screwing over the safety on board, when will the Christian be able to mount 2 full decks of 68pd carronades? considering you said it wouldnt be possible to add it to the Victory due to remodeling, it certainly wouldnt be a problem on the Christian since it already have the carronade models.