Redoutable better than Christian

[Malcolm3]

9 minutes ago, Koveras said:

The redoubtable won't get port bonus' that you can pick and choose from, unfortunately, so a crafted ship will always be better than a DLC ship.

If you use  https://na-map.netlify.com/ and compare Teak(S)/White Oak(S) Redoutable w/out bonuses with Teak/White Oak Christian with, say Vera Cruz bonuses, you will realize that Redoutable's stats are still better.

[MassimoSud]

Okay, let's all buy this dlc and get it over with, in the end we know that arguing about the balance of a game is useless, when on the other side there is the sacrosanct need to make cash. With all due respect, I would prefer a more balanced, more varied game, where the economy and crafting matter most, and for this I would also be available to pay a monthly subscription. But as I said, it is useless to argue further, alea iacta est!

[admin]

17 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

If you use  https://na-map.netlify.com/ and compare Teak(S)/White Oak(S) Redoutable w/out bonuses with Teak/White Oak Christian with, say Vera Cruz bonuses, you will realize that Redoutable's stats are still better.

you should not tie yourself to an outdated rating system abandoned by british as soon as they realised that RATE system does not mean anything. Displacement, broadside weight this is what determines ship.

Christian is a light 3000 ton mid century ship of the line built for low depths (giving him higher turn rates than usual). 
Redoutable and Duguay Trouin are advanced 3200-3400 tons ships of the line designed by one of the most talented ship builders Sane. 
(hms victory is 3500 tons btw)

I am not going to cut Redoutable  weight just because do not like it. Captain Jean Jack Lucas wont forgive me. 
 

[Malcolm3]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

But they are both not better than Christian. Christian is still awesome and strong in many regards (including guns and crew)

Then please show us in which regards Christian is stronger and better than Redoutable? The latter has even more thickness while French ships were known as more lightly built than British ones (and Bellona has less thickness also).

14 minutes ago, admin said:

These design advances has made 2nd rates obsolete, they did not have enough guns three deckers should carry but had an extra deck which 3rd rates did not have. 
These design advances also made the rate (class) system obsolete. British abandoned it soon after. 

The problem of combining in one system ships built along a century of Age of Reason is understandable, and it's surely one of the causes why you made "Bucentaure" 2nd rate and not the 3rd rate as it would be in British system. But now 1-3 rates in game are broken and need to be rebalanced again. As 3rd rate DLC stronger than any 2nd rate crafted ship made them all obsolete.
And that's still without talking about economical matters...
 

[Malcolm3]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

you should not tie yourself to an outdated rating system abandoned by british as soon as they realised that RATE system does not mean anything. Displacement, broadside weight this is what determines ship.

Then why you don't abandon it?
And comparing Redoutable DLC ship with chest-permit Christian is nothing about rate. It's just the main ship used in RVR along 1st rates, regardless of rate. Also it's stronger but its BR is lower.

But I can agree with @MassimoSud.

12 minutes ago, MassimoSud said:

But as I said, it is useless to argue further, alea iacta est!

The consequences will follow. But I think at least  @rediii will have his 3rd rates PB finally.

[captain smile]

Guys stoop to complain uou dont even tryied the ship yet 

[Angus MacDuff]

5 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

But now 1-3 rates in game are broken and need to be rebalanced again. As 3rd rate DLC stronger than any 2nd rate crafted ship made them all obsolete.

Maybe we need to get rid of the in-game rating system.  We are trying to compare ships from two centuries here.  Yes @admin, I know that is not a simple task that you can just snap your fingers to change.  The real answer is that we just can't take the current rating system seriously.  Perhaps the real answer is to move the ships into a rate based on their BR and not history. 

[Sento de Benimaclet]

34 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

If you use  https://na-map.netlify.com/ and compare Teak(S)/White Oak(S) Redoutable w/out bonuses with Teak/White Oak Christian with, say Vera Cruz bonuses, you will realize that Redoutable's stats are still better.

Build the Temeraire in Veracruz and it will be more powerful than Le Redoutable.

[Malcolm3]

2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Perhaps the real answer is to move the ships into a rate based on their BR and not history. 

Agreed. Make BR based on ship real stats (basic ones) and set some threshold for each rate. FX: 1st rate - more than 750 BR, 2nd rate - 749-570 BR etc...

1 minute ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

Build the Temeraire in Veracruz and it will be more powerful than Le Redoutable.

But for this you need to obtain permit from chest (RNG) and Seasoned Woods (extremely expensive), while Redoutable is redeemable with any woods you like.

[captain smile]

Guys you have 42 pd canons on the christian , you can dismast a redoutable more less easely , and christian is still 1 of the fastest line ships downwind . 
1 year ago ppl was complaining cause the surprise was not strong enough compared to the Endymion 😅.

Relax and enjoy the ship 

[Sento de Benimaclet]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

But for this you need to obtain permit from chest (RNG) and Seasoned Woods (extremely expensive), while Redoutable is redeemable with any woods you like.

Yes. And the solitary or small or very small clans players is the only option we have to be able to make PvP and RvR with any guarantee, it is precisely the DLC. By the way you save the tools, the doubloons, the building, the different S wood permits etc. Huge clans that can afford all that can build the temeraire in bonus port. And if they do not satisfy the result you can always buy Le redoutable. Greetings

[Koveras]

35 minutes ago, MassimoSud said:

Okay, let's all buy this dlc and get it over with, in the end we know that arguing about the balance of a game is useless, when on the other side there is the sacrosanct need to make cash. With all due respect, I would prefer a more balanced, more varied game, where the economy and crafting matter most, and for this I would also be available to pay a monthly subscription. But as I said, it is useless to argue further, alea iacta est!

Balance has never been a priority.. if it had we wouldn't have had port bonus' in the first place and surps/renos would've had magical mast thickness..

 

[Player RUS]

Why is the Redoutable better than the other 3rd-rank ships? (3rd rank, Bellona and even Saint Paul seems weaker) This infringes on the rights of players who do not use DLS ships. I spend a lot of time and effort building a ship and it turns out that it is weaker than a DLS ship that can be used for free every day

[Teutonic]

i'm surprised we didn't see the power creep coming 😘.

It brings up my previous worries. 

I am cautious in saying the 4th rates at least have some balancing factors, like the inger being the fastest downwind beats, and wapen being super powerful in close brawls. but when you start adding more and more DLCs, it gets hard to argue for crafting.

3rd rate DLC, and these stats frankly look pretty uh....worrisome. the ship has similar, if not better stats than a christian before port bonuses?  DLCs also get random port bonuses too, sometimes that means it's scary good.

it's a shame that we don't try and balance the ships we have in the game due to historically reasoning of "these ships were just straight up better" statements. While I completely understand that some ships were in fact, better then others....it begs the question as to the reasoning for having so many ships choices in the game when they barely get used.

 

example: Essex, anyone been sailing this ship within the past month for PvP? no chasers, low HP value, average stats, nothing special.

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Teutonic said:

example: Essex, anyone been sailing this ship within the past month for PvP? no chasers, low HP value, average stats, nothing special.

As you say, some ships are better than others, and players will naturally want to sail a better ship.  This means ships like Essex are relegated to the NPC.  The variety is still out there and if you want to see an Essex, you can still kill one any time.

[Koveras]

10 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

i'm surprised we didn't see the power creep coming 😘.

It brings up my previous worries. 

I am cautious in saying the 4th rates at least have some balancing factors, like the inger being the fastest downwind beats, and wapen being super powerful in close brawls. but when you start adding more and more DLCs, it gets hard to argue for crafting.

3rd rate DLC, and these stats frankly look pretty uh....worrisome. the ship has similar, if not better stats than a christian before port bonuses?  DLCs also get random port bonuses too, sometimes that means it's scary good.

it's a shame that we don't try and balance the ships we have in the game due to historically reasoning of "these ships were just straight up better" statements. While I completely understand that some ships were in fact, better then others....it begs the question as to the reasoning for having so many ships choices in the game when they barely get used.

 

example: Essex, anyone been sailing this ship within the past month for PvP? no chasers, low HP value, average stats, nothing special.

We did see the powercreep coming. I've written about it extensively.

Yet when it comes to mods and port bonus' limited to certain clans and nations it's ok. When it's something that gives a slight competitiveness to small nations then it's a problem?

The redoubtable will be nowhere near as powerfull as a crafted ship unless u get real lucky with the RNG port bonus'. 

As to the powercreep? - Why would anyone sail anything but a snow or a 3rd rate in OW?

Why would any1 in their right mind bring anything other than a couple of L'oceans + christians to a low BR PB?

Why would any1 bring anything but L'Oceans and a couple of requins to a large BR PB?

Balance has never been a priority and those of us that shouted for it was silenced by and large by the same players now arguing that a DLC ship with random port bonus' is somehow OP to a crafted ship with port bonus'.

[Malcolm3]

8 minutes ago, Koveras said:

Yet when it comes to mods and port bonus' limited to certain clans and nations it's ok. When it's something that gives a slight competitiveness to small nations then it's a problem?

Redoutable isn't limited to small nations. And the main problem of small nations is that they are small and easily can be outnumbered in PBs, while the main RL "weapon of the weak" - commerce raiding doesn't work as RVR activity.

19 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

As you say, some ships are better than others, and players will naturally want to sail a better ship. 

And they will because my factors that limited this IRL didn't exist in game.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Malcolm3

[Koveras]

5 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Redoutable isn't limited to small nations. And the main problem of small nations is that they are small and easily can be outnumbered in PBs, while the main RL "weapon of the weak" - commerce raiding doesn't work as RVR activity.

 

No but if everyone sails a redoubtable then everyone is one a slightly more equal playing field, and thus we come closer to a skill based game. Mods will still be an issue ofc but I can kill most with that difference.

[MysteriousHonza]

Just small OT, can redoutable ingame use 36pnd guns like it used IRL? 

[Serk]

How is the in game Le Bucentaure (classe Tonnant) faring vs Le Redoutable? 
 

Temeraire and Tonnant classes had the same designer and were used in the same period.    

Yet Tonnant class was better armed and very well liked by it’s crew. It should be better than Téméraire class IMO. 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Serk

[squeekydoor]

I think the real issue with some of the ships is just the br value; which, is at the heart of this there are ships that are just not useable br wise.  Like the Vic and the Buc.  So if you balanced the br of these to be closer to the Christian it would be a lot better.
The best way to balance the ships is just to do it with br.  So if the redoubtable had a br near 540 it would be good but not as oppressive and this would go lore wise as tech got better and the british went away from the class system.  This would put the irredeemable around 570 br
 

on the same note lowering the buc and victory by 40 points would make them very viable in port battles.

 

Thanks and sail safe,

Squeekydoor

Edited January 30, 2020 by squeekydoor

[erelkivtuadrater]

2 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

As you say, some ships are better than others, and players will naturally want to sail a better ship.  This means ships like Essex are relegated to the NPC.  The variety is still out there and if you want to see an Essex, you can still kill one any time.

but it for sure doesent help that the 2nd best 5th rate is a non permit ship, if they would make any sense the ship with worst stats in its class would be the non permit one then people would actually use a npc essex over for instance Frigate which would be the deep water 5th rate with worst stats. But from what admin believes i imagine people want to sail the heaviest ships of their class so the heaviest ships should obviously be the easiest to get in his mind

[Teutonic]

Buc now at 550 BR.

while I agree the christian should have more BR than the Buc.

I also find it interesting that we have a new question

why use a pavel at 540 br, when the buc is 550

Edited January 30, 2020 by Teutonic

[squeekydoor]

44 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Buc now at 550 BR.

while I agree the christian should have more BR than the Buc.

I also find it interesting that we have a new question

why use a pavel at 540 br, when the buc is 550

When did this happen because if so that thing is gonna be the pb ship 

 

and the pavel is now worthless 

Edited January 30, 2020 by squeekydoor

[admin]

1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

 

why use a pavel at 540 br, when the buc is 550

Pavel is used by NPC raiders and if we lower BR they will bring more Pablos (it should go down after fix) 
BRs will be rebalanced with guns and upgrades in the Unfinished business expansion (which will also bring hull leeway).