Clan port control and impact on game play.

[I Shot Got]

Well this morning I got up and was immediately informed that the clan I am in had been dropped from friends list by the clan controlling our major ship yard in San Juan and had lost all port bonus' as a result.

Now I don't know what the difference of opinions are between the Clan leaderships are and to be perfectly honest I don't care. I have never been a fan of any clan having control over port bonus or ship building and this is an example of why.

This mechanic is broken NO CLAN SHOULD HAVE CONTROL OVER SHIP BUILDING. I have paid money to be in this game and am being held to ransom for what? Some childish squabble between clan leadership a difference of opinion with neither side willing to compromise. Any player in this game in or out of a clan should have access to port bonus'. To allow this kind of behaviour in game is just ridiculous. It is yet another example of why players will walk from the game in disgust. The fact that the clan involved that has denied clan bonus to another clan is an example of how petty and childish some people can be. The fact that the game actually allows this behaviour is beggars belief.

Developers you need to fix this YESTERDAY!

I am in this game to play and contribute to my nation of choice but due to the game mechanics another person can decide how I play the game. I am now no longer able to craft usable PvP ships for new players both in my clan and those outside my clan. Way to go both clan leaders and game developers. Let the two year olds squabbling over the lollipop run the game and everyone else can go to hell.

Spy

 

 

[Papillon]

Delete port bonuses in their entirety and problem disappears.  They should not be in this game at all.

[Thonys]

8 hours ago, I Shot Got said:

Well this morning I got up and was immediately informed that the clan I am in had been dropped from friends list by the clan controlling our major ship yard in San Juan and had lost all port bonus' as a result.

Now I don't know what the difference of opinions are between the Clan leaderships are and to be perfectly honest I don't care. I have never been a fan of any clan having control over port bonus or ship building and this is an example of why.

This mechanic is broken NO CLAN SHOULD HAVE CONTROL OVER SHIP BUILDING. I have paid money to be in this game and am being held to ransom for what? Some childish squabble between clan leadership a difference of opinion with neither side willing to compromise. Any player in this game in or out of a clan should have access to port bonus'. To allow this kind of behaviour in game is just ridiculous. It is yet another example of why players will walk from the game in disgust. The fact that the clan involved that has denied clan bonus to another clan is an example of how petty and childish some people can be. The fact that the game actually allows this behaviour is beggars belief.

Developers you need to fix this YESTERDAY!

I am in this game to play and contribute to my nation of choice but due to the game mechanics another person can decide how I play the game. I am now no longer able to craft usable PvP ships for new players both in my clan and those outside my clan. Way to go both clan leaders and game developers. Let the two year olds squabbling over the lollipop run the game and everyone else can go to hell.

Spy

 

 

the problem i think is the amount of clans on the friends list .

there are only 15 clan slots available and way to many groups of players in other small clans 

.> the friends list  it should be doubled to let's say 30.

mostly the bigger clans are put in the list . to have at least the majority of players to have access to build bonus ships

smaller clans are therefore usually the victims of this phenomenon.

it is not the intention of port holders to impose a restriction on smaller clans

its the mechanism what gives the port holder a limitation

it is the mechanism that performs that restriction

.and yes it need s a fix

my conclusion is that this game  has way to many restrictions (stinginess) in some areas >>  what results in >> in player losses in the long run.

 

remember playing naval action has nothing to do with killing players ...it's  a wrong thought,.

sailing the 7 seas has all to do with protecting your vessel and protecting trade routes and ports,(that counts even today)

if you want pief paf poef go play world of warships.

even the expression killing a ship is a child's expression.
it's sinking a ship ... losing your load and breaking down your power. and start again. to rebuild your empire. and become the best in it.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Thonys

[Thonys]

11 minutes ago, Staunberg said:

Well in this case it is not a question of a little clan getting of the clan list. 

But you raise a valuable question. Problem has been there for many playes from the start.

Lots of players have voiced concern from the start. But i wont change. So it is what it is.

the result will be players losses in the long run like i stated as a result .

"it is what it is".

recomendable >> NO.!

so we players must act against this.

and that why we are all here.

we have to keep all  the players in the game.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Thonys

[Thonys]

5 minutes ago, Staunberg said:

Time will tell. 

There is also some value to it. Other big clans can maybe learn from Havoc. Do it oure way ore lose acces to better ships. Could maybe force smaller clans to support the big clans, hence getting more content on the server, and thereby increase the pop.

well

smaller clans are way too horny for their control over their own clan warehouse... that won't happen it's roosters behavior.
they want to keep it all in their own hands, instead of conquering their own port.and support other clans.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Thonys

[Angus MacDuff]

20 minutes ago, Thonys said:

.> the friends list  it should be doubled to let's say 30.

There should not be a friends list for ship crafting.  There is no question that the owning clan deserves to make a profit from their port, but the decision as to whether one player can use the port facilities should not be made by another player (as I have continuously stated).  A simple "buy in" process would solve this issue.  If any individual (of the nation) wants to craft, he pays a fee to the port (30K Dubs and 1 million reals).  After that, he is permanently on a crafters list and the clan cannot boot him.  You could add that he pays an extra 10% for everything else he does in that port.  easy...

[Thonys]

Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

There should not be a friends list for ship crafting.  There is no question that the owning clan deserves to make a profit from their port, but the decision as to whether one player can use the port facilities should not be made by another player (as I have continuously stated).  A simple "buy in" process would solve this issue.  If any individual (of the nation) wants to craft, he pays a fee to the port (30K Dubs and 1 million reals).  After that, he is permanently on a crafters list and the clan cannot boot him.  You could add that he pays an extra 10% for everything else he does in that port.  easy...

wel increase the number would help a lot at least.

besides... who conquered the port?

perhaps it can be free to build ships ,but that's not what it is atm

 

perhaps than a option to make building ships a free option ,....is a developer coding process... and a choice from the port holder. if he wants to make the port free for that process.(or not)

but that's not what we have ...

the closest option is to increase the friend list number.

 

[Teutonic]

Ooh spicy.

[HamBlower]

Funny Thing! 

I' m sitting at my desk and smile about the inner-danish-discussions and the fact that Sweden should be the reason why there's no Nation-Feeling in Denmark. Furthermore than danish lack of unity causes a discussion on game mechanics.

Swedish council decided early after the wipe to negotiate about a PVP-Peace in a Zone around both capitals with denmark. To be honest the biggest swedish clan voted against such an agreement. 

Denmark and Sweden didn't reach an agreement in PVP, but the RVR agreement is still running. 

Since this time we kill each other in open world, near the capitals and far away. (Nearly) Nobody in Sweden complains about this. We don't complain about DNP, we don't complain about Bserk (not sure about the correct spelling of the clan).

The only thing that realy hurts is the absence of the majority from Havoc.

But, back to topics: We, Sweden, do not have a problem with clan-controlled-ports. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by HamBlower

[woodenfish]

[AeRoTR]

Clan owns the port that's it, capture your own port and defend.

On the other hand, how much resource/dubloons/reals/cm did you donate ? Do you know how much does it cost ?

[Tenet]

There are too many Nations.

Sweden should clearly be removed as a Nation and become a Danish flag option in the DLC.

[Obi-Heed Kenobi]

My $.02:

Anything that provides an incentive for *any* player to leave the game, to stop playing, to quit in frustration, and so forth - well, that's bad, m'kay?

This is a good game. The mechanics are all there. With a few very minor tweaks, it could be even better.

[Latron]

Sweden:

[Teutonic]

2 hours ago, rediii said:

Maybe now. But some months ago the crying about DNP was insane up to a point where sweden didnt help denmark anymore in it's fight against russia.  

true.

and Denmark told us to HTFU and so we did.

From then on I distinctly remember a lot of Danes being upset about being attacked constantly as well. Seemed we had players in both our nations that both suffered (in their opinions). I discussed with multiple clan leaders in sweden about this often and ultimately we decided to live with it - didn't make some of us happy, but whatever. that's how it goes and so we move on.

---------

Anyway - derailing the original subject so I apologize.

Why should a clan that owns a port - pays for the timer, invests the majority of "whatever" they invest into it, allow others group in the nation to take advantage of it when they don't help in the overall goal of Said clan?

HAVOC owns the ports they own due to both being opportunistic and through effort and blood, it is entirely fair for HAVOC to decide who uses what they build.

This is further argument to what I believe is ultimately the problem - Port Bonuses should not be straight up Ship stat boosts.

I believe players would be a lot more comfortable if port bonuses were largely economic based. Such as resource efficiency (using less of X resource) in crafting.

I think players could stomach "not being part of port bonuses" if they were told that clan HAVOC made Oceans for X% less resources than a clan that does not get the bonus. I'm sure no matter what, someone isn't going to be happy - but I completely understand the irritation of crafting a ship without port bonuses when knowing an opponent can essentially make a ship 20% better than you before adding mods. It is an uphill battle that no one cares to deal with.

[Raekur]

Limited clan list - Big issue that needs adjusting due to the thimble sized capacity. While it seems that ALL nations have these little internal conflicts it usually centers around those that have something and those that do not. What makes a difference is how those that have something manage it. Will they use what they have as a means to extort the rest of their nation or will they share it with the rest of the nation? It seems that most of the time it is the former rather than the latter. Sometimes this is the result of the clan that captured the port asking for assistance in building up the investments and either getting that assistance or getting nothing. While I agree that if a clan wants access to the ports benefits, there should have been some mechanic to prevent the owning clan from being able to backstab the clans that helped build the port. The massive thing this game lacks is a system for preventing negative actions and griefing the players. Yes, the port investment is a great idea but fell a little short when access to investing was open to EVERYONE without needing approval of point allocation by the clan that owns the port (blatant OOOPS there devs). The game has a lot of very fine points but it also has a lot of ideas that were implemented that were not analyzed properly to determine how they would play out over time. The biggest thing missing from this game, a REASON for the clans of a nation to actually work together since it seems survival isnt enough.

 

[Angus MacDuff]

5 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

A simple "buy in" process would solve this issue.  If any individual (of the nation) wants to craft, he pays a fee to the port (30K Dubs and 1 million reals).  After that, he is permanently on a crafters list and the clan cannot boot him.  You could add that he pays an extra 10% for everything else he does in that port.  easy...

 

9 minutes ago, Raekur said:

The biggest thing missing from this game, a REASON for the clans of a nation to actually work together since it seems survival isnt enough.

If my idea above were to be used, it would give players a reason to defend to port.  Actual investment would give incentive to help in defence.

[Rymy Finne]

2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

true.

and Denmark told us to HTFU and so we did.

From then on I distinctly remember a lot of Danes being upset about being attacked constantly as well. 

---------

Umm, ok I am new in game, just 3 weeks and I did not see these events but why on earth people complain in PVP server if they get attacked? You do realise my syrströmmin smelling neighbour that it is PvP server and purpose is to fight against other players? 

[van der Clam]

2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

true.

and Denmark told us to HTFU and so we did.

From then on I distinctly remember a lot of Danes being upset about being attacked constantly as well. Seemed we had players in both our nations that both suffered (in their opinions). I discussed with multiple clan leaders in sweden about this often and ultimately we decided to live with it - didn't make some of us happy, but whatever. that's how it goes and so we move on.

---------

Anyway - derailing the original subject so I apologize.

Why should a clan that owns a port - pays for the timer, invests the majority of "whatever" they invest into it, allow others group in the nation to take advantage of it when they don't help in the overall goal of Said clan?

HAVOC owns the ports they own due to both being opportunistic and through effort and blood, it is entirely fair for HAVOC to decide who uses what they build.

This is further argument to what I believe is ultimately the problem - Port Bonuses should not be straight up Ship stat boosts.

I believe players would be a lot more comfortable if port bonuses were largely economic based. Such as resource efficiency (using less of X resource) in crafting.

I think players could stomach "not being part of port bonuses" if they were told that clan HAVOC made Oceans for X% less resources than a clan that does not get the bonus. I'm sure no matter what, someone isn't going to be happy - but I completely understand the irritation of crafting a ship without port bonuses when knowing an opponent can essentially make a ship 20% better than you before adding mods. It is an uphill battle that no one cares to deal with.

I agree with your point that other clans that do not contribute to port upgrades and defenses should not reap the goodies. However, there should be a workaround by making payments to the port owner for being able to partake in the goodies. Already there is a port tax. The port owners can raise the hell out of that tax and gain some reals back from those who did not help in port growth. But maybe that isn't enough? So maybe there could be some kind of background charge for using that port owner's shipwright and shipyard. Maybe to build with all the available bonuses in that port, there is an extra dbl or extra real tax that goes directly to the clan's warehouse? Maybe we don't have enough to pay for this full bonus so we make a build with only half the bonuses available. Or pick and choose which we want to pay for.

Maybe level 1 upgrades could cost other clans 20% tax that's paid to the port owner
Maybe level 2 upgrades could cost 30%, etc, etc.

And those on the clan's friend list don't have to pay this extra tax.

Somehow, there should be a way for the entire nation to benefit from these bonuses without be excluded from the clan friend list,  is all I'm saying.

[Teutonic]

2 hours ago, Rymy Finne said:

Umm, ok I am new in game, just 3 weeks and I did not see these events but why on earth people complain in PVP server if they get attacked? You do realise my syrströmmin smelling neighbour that it is PvP server and purpose is to fight against other players? 

yes.

The argument was that Denmark wanted nations to join them in fighting Russia (a general blanket statement) and for the most part I think groups agreed.

The complaint was generally that your leadership tells you "these guys are friends" and your response is "cool." 5 minutes later you get attacked by these friends and you didn't expect it. Now you may say "hey, pvp, it's only a game." but there are a lot of players, myself included, that come from MMOs where we have proper alliance/standing setups and when told that "X group is friendly" that usually means they won't shoot you. 

So you must understand that after being told about someone who is friendly suddenly starts attacking you, there are lots of folks who find that it is impossible to be friendly with someone that attacks you.

 

[Rymy Finne]

8 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

yes.

The argument was that Denmark wanted nations to join them in fighting Russia (a general blanket statement) and for the most part I think groups agreed.

The complaint was generally that your leadership tells you "these guys are friends" and your response is "cool." 5 minutes later you get attacked by these friends and you didn't expect it. Now you may say "hey, pvp, it's only a game." but there are a lot of players, myself included, that come from MMOs where we have proper alliance/standing setups and when told that "X group is friendly" that usually means they won't shoot you. 

So you must understand that after being told about someone who is friendly suddenly starts attacking you, there are lots of folks who find that it is impossible to be friendly with someone that attacks you.

 

So it was you, treacherous swedes who broke deal and attacked even pact was made?

I think if you have played MMO's expecially with this type that you cant control all players what they do, expecially if they don't belong to certain clan. And anyway I go again back to that point that I find it very amusing seeing people raging in global chat if they lose ship in game where purpose is to make naval combat with other players. 

[Raekur]

11 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

So you must understand that after being told about someone who is friendly suddenly starts attacking you, there are lots of folks who find that it is impossible to be friendly with someone that attacks you.

 

I order to have clan to clan agreements work, you need to be able to see what clan a hostile ship belongs to otherwise it is a guess at best. While I understand the admins viewpoint that they do not want a player to get singled out I think the potential of better relations between players out weighs the insignificant impact of a specific player being targeted. In addition, I think the reason that a specific player being targeted can not be ignored. I think there is a greater chance that said target did something to offend the attacking nation rather than the possibility that the person is viewed as an easy target. Even in the chance that the person is easy prey if he gets attacked frequently it is a clear message that either he is sailing in an area that is above his skill level to survive or he might want to consider sailing with a group instead of sailing around being a solo target. 

[van der Clam]

2 hours ago, Staunberg said:

And how abouth those clans that have taking part in upgrading and are removed from the port. They should pas a tax? ore would you surgest the get refund and the port is downgraded with there investment?

Good call. I've no idea.

[Raekur]

How about an automatically filled list of access. If you aid in the development of a port your clan is added to the list. The list can not be modified by the owner of the port to prevent the situation of the owner backstabbing those clans that helped and it removes the possibility of adding a clan that did nothing. The list is still limited in the number of slots and the only way to be removed is to be a clan that contributed the least of all the others on the list. While this may make it difficult for small clans to get added, this can be remedied by the owner handing materials to the small clans so they can be included. Or, to prevent investments from going to the wrong spot a interface mechanic that tracks materials that are handed to the owning clan for investment and the position of a assisting clan on the list is determined by the raw amount of materials delivered to the port. If the owner wants a clan off the list, then the clans on the list below them need to deliver more goods than the specific clan and this can be accomplished by the owning clan refusing delivery from the clan they want removed. Yes it will take work, but that is a far cry better than feeling betrayed after spending weeks or months working on a port just to be extorted by the owner after it is done. Just a rough idea off the top of my head.

[Severus Snape]

I think we can consider the port bonuses / clan upgrades additions to the game.....failures.  

Larger BR port battles were designed to create a "national" effort and encourage participation from within said nations.  But then the upgraded ports are owned by 1 clan and that 1 clan can determine who is able to craft there.  Seems very anti-national effort.  Mechanics were introduced into the game that seemingly contradict mindsets and actual game design.  Is this a nation based game.....or a clan based on?  I feel like a decision needs to be made somewhere in the gamelabs think tank and then changes need to be made to serve that style of play.  

Limited amount of ports (45 & 55) that nations have access to also hurts the "national" effort ethos of play.  So does the 15 clans only on the list....which is astonishingly poor design.  With 1300ish players on at peak friendly clan lists were simply not large enough.  Multiple suggestions to expand on the forums.  Nothing but silence from the devs. 

I'm not really sure what the 3 years of alpha were for when we ended up being spoon fed half baked mechanics that were tested for a month before release.