Testbed Feedback - Battle UI, Localization, Patrols, Delivery quests

[Grundgemunkey]

10 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

This is the root of the argument and something that I hope Devs will take into account.  I am a fan of realistic broadsides doing crippling damage to much smaller ships, but that in itself should not be the only thing modified.  As you say, there are many aspects to a naval battle and modding only one puts a serious imbalance into the equation.  They have not addressed the manoeuvrability of the smaller ships with this mod.  A snow with carros will be able to sit behind a 1st rate and destroy it with raking broadsides. 

agree with all this ... imo this is another pvp/rvr killing change .. for the sake of some imagined authenticity ,,,, when in reality ships very rarely fought to the death and in fact very rarely sank in battle .. as soon as a ship became unable to fight they struck their colours and surrendered .. reality isnt fun to play in a game

anyone name one game that is authentic and realistic

i have tried searching the whole thread  dont seem to be able to find it but  i thought that Devs stated that part of the change was to encourage noobs to play and not quit ... the increased damage model will let them rise through the ranks quicker .. i may be mistaken"

[Cecil Selous]

8 hours ago, admin said:

Ship structure is a parameter that shows overall hull integrity and at lower hull integrity ship begins to feel unwell and slowly disintegrate,.
Masts connect to keel and have a lot of supporting elements inside the hull and rely not only on rig but also on ship structure integrity
As a result if you shoot at structure you lower the integrity of all supporting elements inside the hull, and at very low numbers more and more damage will be passed onto masts, but its not random - you need 1000 damage to be passed onto masts to destroy the 1000 hp lower section. 

Thus to your comment - should multi deck ship be able to hold the mast in place with no rigging damage. No. It can lose masts if they are damaged elsewhere, or when their support has disintegrated.
Multi deck ship can lose a mast even at very strong winds if they dont take top sails in time (no rigging damage - just wind pressure)

This updated system works incredibly well in annoying cases when you see the enemy has low structure but still zooms off into the horizon. 
In the new damage model captain should be very careful and start repairing structure early if he does not want to be demasted 
 

I can understand the idea behind it but the problem is, that it is happening so ridiculously fast. 40 holes (or a even bit less than that) in you hull can mean a total disintegration of your ship and a loss of structural integrity. I am talking here about heavy frigate against light frigate. This is just so artificial and random. 

I like your wind example. Why not introducing this in the future? Varying wind strengths and the need to adjust your sails to that or risk losing a mast section. This would give depth to gameplay. We also need hitboxes for the shrouds  

6 hours ago, huliotkd said:

Correct!!!! masts was and are really weak without rigging and structure at mast's base

Wrong! real old battles finish in less than 5 minutes...the big amount of time was needed to get in position to fire and closer to enemy to board, but then...1 broadside and the battle was over...sometimes some captains surrended before 1st shot fired...

And why did captains surrender that fast? The obvious reason of course is if the enemy is just superior. Like SOL against normal frigate. So if you find yourself in that situation without a possibility to escape and no real chance of winning or doing anything significant you surrender to avoid meaningless loss of life. If you are massively losing the gun battle you surrender for pretty much the same reasons. One batters the other into submission. 

Now with the new dmg model this should be represented in NA. But in a totally different way. By completely destroying ships in a few broadsides. And I just think that this is false and the wrong way. A few players in this thread already presented ideas of how crew and avoiding casualties should be the main thing to care about. A SOL will still always have the upper hand when it comes to that.

5 hours ago, Thonys said:

exploding ships (the possibility to fuse a ship on your own command)

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, I can't get behind this. It equals consensual mass suicide of up to a few hundred men. Shouldn't be a thing.

4 hours ago, huliotkd said:

guys, old battles ended in 1 or max 3 broadsides...too many casualties and rigging damage.

You say it yourself and yet the most prominent reason to lose after 1 to 3 broadsides in the testbed isn't that.

2 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

You probably will. This combat is the right step, it's actually real and not arcade. Finding pvp is a whole different thing, it's very easy if you don't want to die in 5 minutes don't throw yourself into a scenario where you could die in 5 minutes. As in don't tag a SOL in your lowly frigate unless you're prepared for such an encounter. Eventually, maybe soon we'll get some OW balancer that prevents people from shoving a stick in their own spokes unintentionally. Aside from that the damage is authentic, and you should wait until the rest of the model catches up before writing it off.

I will wait for changes and I appreciate that we get the possibility to test all of this but can we stop talking about real and authentic as long as HP bars determine damage done and the mere number of cannonballs that enter your ship decide about loss of structural integrity.

HP may be necessary to simulate damage it in a satisfying way without introducing a potentially extreme performance heavy more sophisticated damage/hitbox model. But then it has to be tweaked and tuned because right now it is just too much.

 

[Draymoor]

Realism should be a guide but gameplay should always trump realism. You can't have one aspect of the game be true to reality and not the other aspects. That creates imbalance, specially when we are talking about battle. We should be looking for a good balance between realism and gameplay. So the argument of' battles were over with 1-3 broadsides so that's exactly how it should be in the game' is not really valid. We have vastly more things in the game that are not realistic at all compared to aspects of the game that are true to reality. So why does broadside power/damage need to be realistic but not other things?

Playing in the testbed I can say for me at least personally, the battles are far less entertaining. While it is satisfying to fire a SOL broadside and watching ships get completely destroyed, it took out a lot of fun from the battles. A lot of the strategic depth is gone. Perhaps adding more depth to the combat would make it better even with current damage values. I still don't see fires being relevant at all, for example. As others mentioned, having to hit lower parts of the ship in order to sink would be a good addition. Damage to the sides should still hit crew and guns and overall structure. Blindly firing at a ship and seeing it sink so easily is boring and requires little to no thought or strategy in battle. 

Added side note: I think there should be an automatic surrender of a ship given extremely bad conditions so you aren't forced to sink every ship in order to win. Two or three masts gone, a very large % of crew dead, very severe structure damage. If all those are present the ship should lose morale over time to the point of automatic surrender. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Draymoor

[jodgi]

17 minutes ago, Draymoor said:

Blindly firing at a ship and seeing it sink so easily is boring and requires little to no thought or strategy in battle.

We should do a test fight where you "fire blindly" and I use the best and thoughtful tactics I know. We can compare notes after.

........

Many posters seem unaware of the many and recurring topics about the dpm paradox we've seen here.

[Slim McSauce]

11 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

HP may be necessary to simulate damage it in a satisfying way without introducing a potentially extreme performance heavy more sophisticated damage/hitbox model. But then it has to be tweaked and tuned because right now it is just too much.

I agree and one thing I'll say about damage as is stands, it's very satisfying, every broadside carries weight to it, and ships aren't as spongy feeling.
A few things that I think would make this sort of realism shine is if the rest of the model followed the same principles. First thing's first I'd want to see full sails nerfed in some way,
Cannon accuracy reduced, crew fatigue, also sinking comes to fast imo, I think ships should just auto surrender at 0 health, then if they have a leak they'll sink but that gives a chance for the ship to be captured without going in with the boarding, but retains the option of sinking. For that maybe increase internal structure marginally. Shots at the deck should not contribute to leakage but better at shooting away armor. Fires are still not in a great place and I'd exchange some fire damage for raw cannon damage output, so as a battle goes on and structures are dug into fire becomes more of a risk, fireships make a return as a sail destroyer FIRST and explosions should take second. In the end I'd want to finally see the aiming gyro to be removed and a hold space to fire function be added. That to me is the last step for proper realism which will raise the bar substantially in the long run.
 

[Grundgemunkey]

having recieved a warning to not been bothered to trawl through the thread ... i have now done so and found the quote i was looking for

Quote

 

The problem is that the damage model is working but not for all. It should be supporting the historical patterns and general in game progression.
If it is not supporting the progression it is making average players feel that they are wasting time. 

I personally believe that the combat model is one of the drivers of retention. And should support the historical mental patterns. Of course this is very important for new players as old players (those who are left) are very fine with the current model.

 

in simple terms the average player was quitiig the game because when sailing alone .. they were sunk by people sailing frigates  ,, so the new damage model is to make it impossile for an experienced player to sink a first rate if hes sailing a frigate  .. and the average player survives and sails on in his first rate and doesnt quit

thats just dumbing the game down ,,,

its rare to see a first rate sailing alone in the game at the moment .... remember last year when everyone was crying about too many first rates in the game ... it wasnt authentic or realistic for so many first rates to be sailing around

all thats goig to happen is the experienced players will sail first rates and kill average players in their first rates and average player will still quit ..

port battles .. the cry was more diversity in port battles needed all we have is 1st rate v 1st rate port battles ... so this was changed and now we have very diverse port batles .. with new damage model .. it will be the winers will be decided by who gets the biggest cannons in battle ... back to 1st rate v 1st rate

I understand the thinking around the damage model changes ,,, but its not going to change player retention out comes ..the expereinced players will just find the new meta and the average or new players will carry on siking and quitting while dumbing down the game as a result

there has to be another way to player retention without this

 

 

 

[Draymoor]

4 minutes ago, jodgi said:

We should do a test fight where you "fire blindly" and I use the best and thoughtful tactics I know. We can compare notes after.

Sorry I don't have time for nonsense. If instead of trying to get the point of the post you prefer to make silly replies, then good for you. 

[Slim McSauce]

6 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

having recieved a warning to not been bothered to trawl through the thread ... i have now done so and found the quote i was looking for

in simple terms the average player was quitiig the game because when sailing alone .. they were sunk by people sailing frigates  ,, so the new damage model is to make it impossile for an experienced player to sink a first rate if hes sailing a frigate  .. and the average player survives and sails on in his first rate and doesnt quit

thats just dumbing the game down ,,,

No it' not because even the worse captain in the real world wouldn't lose to a single frigate unless it was a heavy frigate. That's not dumbing the game down it's just making it more authentic, even a braindead captain can fight off a single outmatched frigate.

[LeBoiteux]

2 hours ago, Lieste said:

Nope. They have short pattern long guns on their main/upper deck, unarmed gundecks, and carronades only on the castles or spar deck

...that wasn't even the case for La Belle Poule, La Renommée, L'Hermione,  Le Requin or L'Unité  that never carried any caronade anywhere IRL :

• Le Requin and La Renommée were broken up before the invention of carronades.
• L'Hermione had been exclusively sailed by the French and was wrecked before France used caronades.
• La Belle Poule had been sailed by the French before France used caronades and it seems British did not put caronades on her after her capture
• Only French L'Unité got caronades but that was only after her capture and her renaming/refitting as HMS Surprise. 

(edit)

Likewise, HMS Cerberus (burnt before the invention of caro) never carried caronades.

Edited February 12, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[admin]

12 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

No it' not because even the worse captain in the real world wouldn't lose to a single frigate unless it was a heavy frigate. That's not dumbing the game down it's just making it more authentic, even a braindead captain can fight off a single outmatched frigate.

@Grundgemunkey just prefers to omit the fact that the game was somewhat dumbed down for frigate captains due to inverse DPS. 
Imagine if it was not DPS but for example HP that was in reverse: First rates 1000 hp, cutter 23000 hp. So it was like this with guns. Those dps models were created for old sea trials which were basically a lobby based MOBA. 

Now light ships will not use MOBA style dumbed down inverse DPS models - which will provide them with proper historical challenges. And as a side bonus ship of the line will feel like ship of the line.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

 Like if every noob can afford to sail in 1st rate after the wipe.. 

  After total wipe & map reset, even RvR clans will have to  work actively to align a 1st rate fleet. And will probably think twice before sailing them for ow pvp or screening fleets.

 Then if the Victory marks cost & overall price get buffed, everyone will cry cause they can't afford it anymore. All this is nonsense.

[RKY]

current model decisions possible regarding gunnery when enemy is presenting stern or bow: 4

new model decisions possible in the same situation: 1

 

Pretty sure it is exactly the thought product management have regarding this new model. Remove individual's skill and experience from the balance, make casual players happy.

Just dropping my 2cents worth of opinion here.

[Grundgemunkey]

43 minutes ago, admin said:

@Grundgemunkey just prefers to omit the fact that the game was somewhat dumbed down for frigate captains due to inverse DPS. 
Imagine if it was not DPS but for example HP that was in reverse: First rates 1000 hp, cutter 23000 hp. So it was like this with guns. Those dps models were created for old sea trials which were basically a lobby based MOBA. 

Now light ships will not use MOBA style dumbed down inverse DPS models - which will provide them with proper historical challenges. And as a side bonus ship of the line will feel like ship of the line.

thats not a problem ... and i do understand ...but  it isnt quite reversed is it ...your comparison of hp ... to be accurate .. would also mean cutters  with 42s and first rates with 6s tp make it corect

you have some romantic notion that people will still  ships like the suprise and endy ,,, when there are ships around they dont stand a chance against ,,, there is no motivation to sail those ships  under new dange system other than been a victim

im not going to quit just because you change the damage model .. just change how I play as will most ... instead of  sailing frigates i will go back to sailing 1st rates .

whats going to happen when everyone is in a first rate and no one  sails any other ship ... what changes are to be made then ... the balance seems fine now ... lots of  varied ships around the map from niagras ,, endys  , bellonas etc just sems a shame to get rid of all those nice ships because the cannon damage isnt realistic ... but at least i can sail around with impunity from any other ship ,, i reckon santi will be the meta with its fire power .. i better start building

 

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

thats not a problem ... and i do understand ...but  it isnt quite reversed is it ...your comparison of hp ... to be accurate .. would also mean cutters  with 42s and first rates with 6s tp make it corect

you have some romantic notion that people will still  ships like the suprise and endy ,,, when there are ships around they dont stand a chance against ,,, there is no motivation to sail those ships  under new dange system other than been a victim

im not going to quit just because you change the damage model .. just change how I play as will most ... instead of  sailing frigates i will go back to sailing 1st rates .

whats going to happen when everyone is in a first rate and no one  sails any other ship ... what changes are to be made then ... the balance seems fine now ... lots of  varied ships around the map from niagras ,, endys  , bellonas etc just sems a shame to get rid of all those nice ships because the cannon damage isnt realistic ... but at least i can sail around with impunity from any other ship ,, i reckon santi will be the meta with its fire power .. i better start building

 

Speed.  The balancer should be speed.  Speed cap the big boys and the smaller ships can dance around them.  Just don't dance too close...

[Grundgemunkey]

1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Speed.  The balancer should be speed.  Speed cap the big boys and the smaller ships can dance around them.  Just don't dance too close...

so what ... they can dance around all they like they cant damage a first rate ... first rate needs one chance and they are dead

sailed a live oak/ white oak vic .. no mods on testt bed .. engaged a 12 ship fleet r from cerbs , hermiones, belle poules, and a couple of indefs i think sank the whole fleet in 30- 40 mins

i didnt need to repair once .. . think i left the battle with about  50% arour both sides ,,

[admin]

38 minutes ago, RKY said:

 

Pretty sure it is exactly the thought product management have regarding this new model. Remove individual's skill and experience from the balance, make casual players happy.

Just dropping my 2cents worth of opinion here.

This is completely opposite from what are we doing. We are actually increasing the skill level required to win in frigates. + remove easy mod bow and stern tanking. Miss couple of rakes = slowed and partially demasted. Increased importance to protect weak parts will in turn increase the influence of positioning, station keeping and wind control and planning (lost the wind - lost the battle)

+ Old inverse dps model was the REAL dumbed down model. It favored frigates. 2 frigates of any type could sink an average 1st rate. 4 frigates = guaranteed death for any first rate. This was unhistorical and stupid. 

So while i understand what you are trying to say, for me it reads: please keep frigates very easy. We have to think for all players so we have to bring the balance to the universe for all ships, not only ships YOU like to sail.
 

[Grundgemunkey]

Just now, admin said:

This is completely opposite from what are we doing. We are actually increasing the skill level required to win in frigates. + remove easy to use bow and stern tanking, which increase demands for all players. Miss couple of rakes = slowed and partially demasted.
Which in turn will increase the influence of positioning and wind control and planning (lost the wind - lost the battle)

+ Old inverse dps model was dumbed down for frigates. 2 frigates of any type could sink an average 1st rate. 4 frigates = guaranteed death for any first rate. This was unhistorical and stupid. 

So while i understand what you are trying to say, for me it reads: please keep frigates very easy. We have to think for all players so we have to bring the balance to the universe for all ships, not only YOU like to sail.
 

the only thing unhistorical and stupid is  a  1st rate captain sailing a first rate alone .. and putting himself in that position ... but you want to dumb it down so people can play stupid thats your choice

anyway thats my last ,,, its coming whether we like it or not ,,,,,, I hope your right and im wrong

[Angus MacDuff]

1 minute ago, Grundgemunkey said:

so what ... they can dance around all they like they cant damage a first rate ... first rate needs one chance and they are dead

sailed a live oak/ white oak vic .. no mods on testt bed .. engaged a 12 ship fleet r from cerbs , hermiones, belle poules, and a couple of indefs i think sank the whole fleet in 30- 40 mins

i didnt need to repair once .. . think i left the battle with about  50% arour both sides ,,

I expect one of our skilled players will sink a 1st rate with a Snow or a Herc using this damage model.  Stern rakes with Carros will be very telling.  (I cant test any more since i'll be in the actual Caribbean for the next couple of weeks)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Imagine if it was not DPS but for example HP that was in reverse: First rates 1000 hp, cutter 23000 hp. So it was like this with guns

(with your example) The Cutter also has 6 guns broadside and no armour, Vic has 16 lower deck alone.

It’s only inverse DPS per single canon, but if factor into the DPS; armour, pen, salvo weight, range, splinters, stability and canons destroyable, the Vic wins.

When including the whole picture, the current damage model is balanced even though on paper it’s inversed DPS, gameplay feels right.   

The on screen presentation is the illusion of programming.     

[jodgi]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

This is completely opposite from what are we doing. We are actually increasing the skill level required to win in frigates. + remove easy to use bow and stern tanking, which increase demands for all players. Miss couple of rakes = slowed and partially demasted.
Which in turn will increase the influence of positioning and wind control and planning (lost the wind - lost the battle)

These are objective facts.

[Sven Silberbart]

You force everyone to sail 1st rates!

The player who can replace a 1st Rate after every loss AND like to sail the big ships is happy.

The player who can not easily replace a 1st rate loss, have to grind or quit the game

The player who simply likes to sail frigates quit the game after he realises that "World of Lineships" returned

Edited February 12, 2019 by Sven Silberbart

[admin]

3 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

the only thing unhistorical and stupid is  a  1st rate captain sailing a first rate alone .. and putting himself in that position ... but you want to dumb it down so people can play stupid thats your choice

anyway thats my last ,,, its coming whether we like it or not ,,,,,, I hope your right and im wrong

I understand.  I will be honest just like you.
You want to keep easy mod. We are removing it.  As one of the old testers (maturin) said here. All feedback here has to be taken with the grain of sail because almost everyone only gives feedback to help him win.

First rates owners are a silent group and we are doing this for them based on data. Not your desires and thoughts.

[jodgi]

1 minute ago, Sven Silberbart said:

You force everone to sail 1st rates!

The player who can replace a 1st Rate after every loss AND like to sail the big ships is happy.

The player who cant easily replace a 1st rate loss, have to grind or quit the game

The player who simply likes to sail frigates quit the game after h erealises World of Lineships returns

Don't worry, truly, MANY of us will continue to sail the most fun ships 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

You force everone to sail 1st rates!

The player who can replace a 1st Rate after every loss AND like to sail the big ships is happy.

The player who cant easily replace a 1st rate loss, have to grind or quit the game

The player who simply likes to sail frigates quit the game after h erealises World of Lineships returns 

Result of these changes maybe that only rich players and clans will be able to play, the rest will probably join causals and solo’s!

Edited February 12, 2019 by Guest

[Hennessy]

I for one,the major factor of this new dmg patch is the speed. You can't sink something that you can't catch,right? 

So if a 1-2nd rate can catch a 5-4th rate there should be some balancing there. But overall I like this new dmg system,brings more fear of the big boys. 

Perhaps aiming needs a tweek too.