Battle system core ruleset discussion

[Ellias]

7 minutes ago, staun said:

So how is it actually you think the Herc have ruined PvP?

Admin explained it himself.

• It's very forgiving to make mistakes, sail away repair, reengage.
• it is very fast and can escape almost everything.
• It has amazing firepower and defensive capabilities.
• Getting sunk in Hercules is not a justification that it is a bad ship
• Statistics of inexperienced players gettings sunk in their daily free ships do not justify that the ship is fine.
• They are free and killing the sense of achievement to sink them while others risking pricey ships.
• Sailing solo in another ship is almost impossible, it is very hard to escape from that little free ship, allowing everyone else to catch you up. Yet again dying to a free ship.
• It has edge over most of the 5th rates. In good hands has a perfect capability to sink them 1v1. (You can read this forum topic, Hercules feedback )
• It forces you to sail in a group or in a uber fast golden ship to have control over your battles.
• OW is almost empty now. You can blame many other things as well.
• Daily redeemable FREE ship doesn't suit a sandbox game.
• Seeing enemy gank squads in few Hercules and few Requins are a quite common sight..

I am sure people may add more to this list.

[Hethwill]

Do not divert discussion into DLC.

There's threads about that.

Thank you.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

i think the statement is good, the answer is not.

 

You want to promote PVP fights ?

 

Speed:

1- Lower the speed hard cap at 13kn (increase ow speed to compensate)

2- Wind force changes in battle instances with 3 wind states, meaning a Victory downwind can outrun a rattlesnake, cutter or an hercule in strong wind, in med winds frigates are the fastest, in calm winds, unrated ones are the fasted

3- Force battle sails as the max sails setting to be able to shoot (boost topsails forces if necessary) .  Shooting at full sails rigs create small chance of fire in the sails

 

Durabilities

4- New players gets 2 extra durability  with each ship they buy for one month

5- Sinking (not getting catured) when fighting a superior ship or multiple inferior ships in PVP should be compensated by the admiralty with a Durability:

 

This means:  if a captain in a surprise sink while in battle vs a  player's Belonna get his ship & non-looted upgrades back in outpost + xp for the fight

                        if a Belonna captain sink while in battle vs 3  captains, he get his ship & non-lootedupgrades back in outpost + xp for the fight

                       If a Surprise captain sink in a battle vs 2 Surprise captains, he get his ship & non-looted upgrades back in outpost + xp for the fight

Surrendering in such situations only grant you the ship back (dura)  if the enemy don't put it in fleet (the enemy get the kill if the battle end with the surrendered ship not put in fleet)

 

6- Sinking or getting captured when fighting a more or so equal fight gives enought doubloons to redeem a ship note of the inferior class (Hermione note if you loose an agga in pvp for exemple, more notes can be added)+ reals for appropriate med guns.

7- Reward pvp victory in the same spirit: getting a kill as a 3 players group vs 1 enemy give  enough doubloon for a ship note of the lesser class, a fair & equal ecounter: a note of the same class, an winning as the weaker side gives the equivalent of a note of a superior class  (promotion).

Edited January 19, 2019 by Baptiste Gallouédec

[staun]

24 minutes ago, Ellias said:

Admin explained it himself.

• It's very forgiving to make mistakes, sail away repair, reengage.
• it is very fast and can escape almost everything.
• It has amazing firepower and defensive capabilities.
• Getting sunk in Hercules is not a justification that it is a bad ship
• Statistics of inexperienced players gettings sunk in their daily free ships do not justify that the ship is fine.
• They are free and killing the sense of achievement to sink them while others risking pricey ships.
• Sailing solo in another ship is almost impossible, it is very hard to escape from that little free ship, allowing everyone else to catch you up. Yet again dying to a free ship.
• It has edge over most of the 5th rates. In good hands has a perfect capability to sink them 1v1. (You can read this forum topic, Hercules feedback )
• It forces you to sail in a group or in a uber fast golden ship to have control over your battles.
• OW is almost empty now. You can blame many other things as well.
• Daily redeemable FREE ship doesn't suit a sandbox game.
• Seeing enemy gank squads in few Hercules and few Requins are a quite common sight..

I am sure people may add more to this list.

Well just because admin says it, dosent make it the truth.

1: think most skilled can manage there ships saling profile to get repair done. It is a skill and also based on knowhow.

2: lots of ships have a saling profile that gives them an advantage against other ships. But yes the Herc is an overall good ship. But if it wasent the Herc it would just be another ship.

3: Yep it is a good ship. But in the shallows I actually fear the Niguara more than the Herc and in deep wather it have its match.

4: getting sunk in any ships just means you met a better captain.

5: Personally I feel fine if I win a battle against any ship. For me it is the challange of the fight, less if I win ore lose. I don’t need the other player to feel pain, for it to be a good fight for me.

6: impossible to go solo. Are you kidding me. How many of the players that go out hunt, do you think use the Herc. Try tjeck compat news, then ask the captain on witch ship He sailed when he made a kill. Outside 2 patrolezones I think most would be on a non Dlc ship.

7: Again personally I fear the Niaguera more. In shallow pb, don’t think it is the prefered ship either.

8: We have a gameplay that gives an advantage in group play. Can’t really see the Dlc have pushed this gameplay.

9: Empty OW, because of the Herc. Thought ppl where saying the where Herc all over the OW. It can’t be both I guess. Empty OW was a problem long before Dlc ships. Lets not blame them for it.

10: Thats an opinion, But how has it ruined PvP? I see it different, it have made a lot of player go to Nassau and Deadman and get some PvP. They might therefore find out that it actually is fun and try some more.

11: Where do you see that besides in Nassau and Deadman patrole zone. And after the change in some 5 rates I see atleast as many of those ships in those 2 patrole zones.

[Ellias]

1 hour ago, Chevalier du Ethuville said:

Do not divert discussion into DLC.

There's threads about that.

Thank you.

Let's go "back to the topic" and discuss the integration of players to PvP.

I want to give you an example from where we came and how long it took to reach where we are right now. 

Back in the days when OW server was just launched, we had a PB Commander in Sweden worshipped and loved for his abilities by almost everyone.

He was opening discussions before the battles drawing charts and listening to people (who he like) ideas then embrace them as his own, even trying to convince very same people that actually suggested the idea.

While he was discussing his important battle plans with his officers and friends I kept advocating that he should consider the wind. Being a nuisance and diverting the subject to stupid wind, again and again, made him shout eventually:

"Shut up, the wind is irrelevant in battle. Both sides have the same wind." Almost everybody agreed with him.

Then he came to the conclusion that is impossible to win an offensive battle. The logic was simple; I can't win it, only because it is impossible. Almost everyone agreed with him.

Then we have lots of pushing and shouting till we make people understand what is wind gouge and why it is important.

Yet every day we learn something new and keep progressing.

New players almost start where we were years ago. I don't see them catching the rest by forcing them to fight a few more battles.

I don't see anyone diverting the subject to DLC. I only see someone else shouting me once again.

"Shut up, the wind is irrelevant in battle. Both sides have the same wind."

Thank you.

Edit: To summarize it. I dont't think integrating Legends to NA will solve problems. Integrating PvE to PvP might do.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Ellias

[Hethwill]

28 minutes ago, Ellias said:

Yet every day we learn something new and keep progressing.

Correct. 

Let's stop fine graining the "what can i do so it is my pvp as i want" and "how will my enemy do and what can i do to subvert the rules".

 

[Aquillas]

2 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

A Hercules (170) attacks an Endymion (330), as Endy has about double BR  , hercules can be reinforced ??? 

In addition to adapted rules of engagement, we need Battle Ratings based on a calculation, from additions, multiplications of speed, HP, thickness, masts, broadside weights and so on.

The BR of some ships (bello, herc, bucentaure) should be reviewed according to factual data, anf updated when ship characteristics are modified, otherwise no ROE can be set properly, all proposition will create exploits.

[AeRoTR]

For better PVP, to increase pvp. Casuals and veterans gap should be reduced to more skillwise. Compensations for losing ships up to 5th rate should increase.

* We need to reduce mod stacking effectiveness. Tighter hard cap limits. Favours casuals, favours skill not the mods.

* We need to reduce gap between wood types (no more super woods).

* We need to limit repairs in battle or increase repair times and duration. If you avoided that broadside of chains that is your skill, you have given heavy rig damage to enemy, that is his fault, so consequences should happen, no more repairing to full state. Even repairing sails, you now know you have a long timer for repair or limited repair, choose wisely.

* We need to limit grape shots just like chain and others. No more eternal stern raking.

* Introduce control for all ships.

* We need to nerf DLC ships. Reduce Hercules speed and agility or make it less thickness and hp (so it is fast and agile). Le Req should be a 5th rate, so skillbook effectiveness will be balanced. This is not about DLC, this is about PVP, why pvp in it's current state. DLC ships can be only blue, reason to sail crafted ships.

* May be increase cannon damage (admin cannon weight adjustment), so bigger ships are less disadvantage against small ship ganks. Small ships need to pay for mistakes heavily. On the other hand needs mod stacking adjustmant, mast sniping with superior mods being most effective way to counter smaller ships, which is single shot sniping, unrealistic. But heavy broadside causing more rigging damage and lucky demasting. So broadside accuracy stays same, but single shot accuracy reduced on horizontal axis.

* Signaling perk, when perk used swords can be seen from far away for signaling side.

Overal deciding factor should be more skill based, mods are still important but not ruling. More compensation for ships up to some level, losing is not so devastating. No more killing 10 players cause you have stacked some mods, you know you can fight may be 3-4 enemies at a time, may be... but that is it, realistic.

 

[OjK]

That's current comparison between BR and HP*Broadside Dmg

Doesn't include the turning rate, cause when I did it, I was thinking more about PB's rather than PvP

It also doesn't include the natural shape of the hull (which would lower Santi-gonna-eat-it-all hull with Gonna-Bounce-Most-Ocean)

Edited January 19, 2019 by OjK

[staun]

23 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

For better PVP, to increase pvp. Casuals and veterans gap should be reduced to more skillwise. Compensations for losing ships up to 5th rate should increase.

* We need to reduce mod stacking effectiveness. Tighter hard cap limits. Favours casuals, favours skill not the mods.

* We need to reduce gap between wood types (no more super woods).

* We need to limit repairs in battle or increase repair times and duration. If you avoided that broadside of chains that is your skill, you have given heavy rig damage to enemy, that is his fault, so consequences should happen, no more repairing to full state. Even repairing sails, you now know you have a long timer for repair or limited repair, choose wisely.

* We need to limit grape shots just like chain and others. No more eternal stern raking.

* Introduce control for all ships.

* We need to nerf DLC ships. Reduce Hercules speed and agility or make it less thickness and hp (so it is fast and agile). Le Req should be a 5th rate, so skillbook effectiveness will be balanced. This is not about DLC, this is about PVP, why pvp in it's current state. DLC ships can be only blue, reason to sail crafted ships.

* May be increase cannon damage (admin cannon weight adjustment), so bigger ships are less disadvantage against small ship ganks. Small ships need to pay for mistakes heavily. On the other hand needs mod stacking adjustmant, mast sniping with superior mods being most effective way to counter smaller ships, which is single shot sniping, unrealistic. But heavy broadside causing more rigging damage and lucky demasting. So broadside accuracy stays same, but single shot accuracy reduced on horizontal axis.

* Signaling perk, when perk used swords can be seen from far away for signaling side.

Overal deciding factor should be more skill based, mods are still important but not ruling. More compensation for ships up to some level, losing is not so devastating. No more killing 10 players cause you have stacked some mods, you know you can fight may be 3-4 enemies at a time, may be... but that is it, realistic.

 

How will it increase PvP if it mostly is based on skill. Would that not increase the gab betwen the Sharks to the seals and last to the fish. Why would that give more PvP?

Nerf the Dlc ship so it is better to sail crafted ship, why would that in your opinion give more PvP?

[OjK]

2 minutes ago, rediii said:

nvm. Shows effectiveness to take a ship right?

For a line combat, pretty realistic values, yes.

[OjK]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

Buccs are more efficient but its close yea  

Check the Discord PM

[AeRoTR]

@staun veteran/elite/good players will use better mods/better ships. Casuals will not, because they are afraid to use expansive mods, elites are not.

So there is already skill gap. Good/Veteran/Elite players will beat 1 or more enemy much easier.

and now add superior mods / ships / mod stacking with knowledge to skill gap. Result = good / elite / veterans will beat more players.

Is this too difficult to understand ? 

[Iroquois Confederacy]

A further issue of reinforcing the weaker side is that ships in the same class have wildly different BRs.  Even if the BR is but 10 off, an otherwise "fair fight" becomes a 2v1 in order to "balance" it in the favor of defense.  This of course ignores the question that if every fight is meant to be fair, what exactly is the purpose of the open world?

[staun]

9 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

@staun veteran/elite/good players will use better mods/better ships. Casuals will not, because they are afraid to use expansive mods, elites are not.

So there is already skill gap. Good/Veteran/Elite players will beat 1 or more enemy much easier.

and now add superior mods / ships / mod stacking with knowledge to skill gap. Result = good / elite / veterans will beat more players.

Is this too difficult to understand ? 

Nope it is not.

Just not sure it is as simple as that. I am not sure that all can be reduced to materiale and upgrades. Personally I think it is more a state of mind. Right now most upgrades are easy to get, so is Wood types. So if the casual as easy can make the same as an elite player, why dosent He? I think you idea have a merit when admin role out the elite RvR patch, so the best will be reserved to the best, right now I am not sure it is the reason.

Think you forgot to tell me why nerf Dlc ships gives better PvP.

[staun]

10 minutes ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

A further issue of reinforcing the weaker side is that ships in the same class have wildly different BRs.  Even if the BR is but 10 off, an otherwise "fair fight" becomes a 2v1 in order to "balance" it in the favor of defense.  This of course ignores the question that if every fight is meant to be fair, what exactly is the purpose of the open world?

One of the best example of screwed up br is the 3 rate compared to a Bellona.

[Licinio Chiavari]

It was strange I had to wait 11 thread pages to see the #blame_requin (or #blame_dlc in general) protocol being finally executed.

A - Requin "uncatchability", so being able to hit and run in R areas, and therefore nobody defending the poor victims and "ruining" others' game, is defenders' errors, not ship OPness. As nobody would hunt Privateer with a Renomee, why in the hell people complains being unable to hunt a Requin with an Agamennon?

B - the legend of Requin uncatchable and unbeatable by any ship... It is that: a legend. As ROVER showed, as I showed, as other Requin specialists showed, as  US Coast Guard (sometimes) showed, a Requin can be hunted and killed as any other ship. It requires, as ALWAYS, a proper hunting party. Would you hunt a fast Surprise with a group of Spanish rigged Renomee? No. Coast Defense has plenty time to join... And having intel of ship, sailing the proper counter. If they join with wrong setup it is their fault.

C - Hercules is a far more strong and dangerous enemy for more ships. But we know, she's a "real ship".

D - looking at target met, I found bulkloads of Hercules and a few requins around. Not last because Requin is an highly specialized ship, requiring a total different handling. And specialists are really few.

E - about general use of ships, still, a good share of models are regularly used. Especially by veterans. Hercules spam is simply easier for casuals. Being "free" and good.

F - CoD still allow fast fore-aft ships to kite up to end battle timer. The problem, again, is people countering a schooner with a 1st rate and than complaining being unable to catch.

That said, back to Topic.

1 - the more unescapable (potentially) the battle, the more ganking to assure victory and superiority.

2 - the more unescapable (potentially) the battle, the less battle started: because a reasonable captain would start a battle even more seldom. Only being sure of undisturbed victory.

3 - the more complex RoE, the more potential ways to abuse them. Example: baiting was less needed without R Areas... A blockading fleet simply came and attack all shipping while blockaded fleet started to prepare. We got R areas... And then baits with a bulk of Bellonas waiting behind the horizon.

 

Therefore, aside off topic (and out reality of game) discussions, I keep thinking (and I am not the only one) that supposed/proposed new RoE would give LESS PVP, LESS FAIR PVP, and LESS MEANINGFUL OW... AND MORE ROE ABUSES... Giving more and more upper hand to bigger groups better organized against... All others.

 

Edit & PS:

Sincerely I have no troubles finding some battles/targets/PvP in general every evening/night logged. Even with a bunch of people around running as chased by the whole Hell when seeing a single enemy sail.

But it's the thrill (and so the pleasure, with ups and downs) of the hunt.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[staun]

1 hour ago, AeRoTR said:

* We need to reduce gap between wood types (no more super woods).

 

Since I went casual and not longer spend time get the best Wood, I made 3 trincomalee to see the concequences.

             teak/teak.   sab/Mah.  Mah/sab

Speed.   + 0,58.        + 0,31.        + 0,55

Side HP.   74.             + 123.       + 123 

Thick side + 3.            * 1.            +1

so actually not much difference. Yes I know there is some underlying Stars, like leak, fire restance that not is showen. I also know when you stack mods it get a bigger diff. But if I am not are wrong the diff on a teak/teak and the others only in a fight with 5 rates thickness will only matter when the fight is at a distance over 500 meter. Angling ofc on a shorter distance, But was actually surpriced how little the difference was.

[Hullabaloo]

I sometimes tag things and see how it goes and then disengage if it goes bad. It can lead to interesting battles.

I was in my Christian last week and was attacked by an Endymion and several 6th rates. They chained and graped but I fought them off. I should have killed the endymion but I made a mistake (did wrong rep) and it escaped, I sank only one of the 6th rates I think. I have no problem with that, they had a go, it didn't work so they disengaged, it was fun. What's wrong with that? 

'Circle of death' and they would not have even tried, one less (satisfying) battle. Patrol rules over whole world would limit the kinds of engagements and play styles you can have. Game would just be Legends with bigger map, please Noooo!

Yes we should do something about tagging when there is no intention at all to fight. All ships with control perk and lose the sail tagging system which is daft anyway, seems the most obvious. Or just spell out that to tag someone into battle with no intention of fighting is considered 'griefing' and not allowed.

[Macjimm]

On 1/18/2019 at 2:48 AM, admin said:

This is a war server. Why escape options? Whats the point? If you attacked - fight!

• Patrol rules for the whole world. Circle of death.
• If you are ready to attack someone - be ready to die and fight to the end.

 

@admin

Is there consideration for small trade ships?  Like the T Brig.

Sounds like those who wish to trade are unwelcome on the war server.

The war server is more exciting, and currently there is a possibility for a small trader to escape, by fleeing.  One tactic is to tag first, for a position advantage, then flee in the battle instance.  This tactic is used for defense when a small trader has no hope of outrunning a hunter in OW, but has a chance inside the instance if he can get the right point of sail.   What you propose would remove the option for a small trader to tag first, when combat is unavoidable, because to tag first would result in suicide if no escape is possible from the instance.

Are small traders not wanted on the war server?

????????????????????

Edited January 19, 2019 by Macjimm

[Licinio Chiavari]

5 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

@admin

Is there consideration for small trade ships?  Like the T Brig.

Sounds like if those who wish to trade are unwelcome on the war server.

The war server is more exciting, and currently there is a possibility for a small trader to escape, by fleeing.  One tactic is to tag first, for a position advantage, then flee in the battle instance.  This tactic is used for defense when a small trader has no hope of outrunning a hunter in OW, but has a chance inside the instance if he can get the right point of sail.   What you propose would remove the option for a small trader to tag first, when combat is unavoidable, because to tag first would result in suicide if no escape is possible from the instance.

Are small traders not wanted on the war server?

????????????????????

Looks like I am not the only one fanatic about "defensive tag".

As often, a feature, a change, even small updates can have consequencies not intended and even against the first intention.

[Capn Rocko]

I don't really like the idea of making all battles a circle of death. There is an art to making a good tag and a thrill to chasing your opponent. The only way I would get behind this idea is if it were optional within the first few minutes of battle. For example: if the defender wants a circle of death, they can click the button when the battle starts, but if the defender does not want a circle of death, they can choose to run away or simply fight without a circle. 

I am still curious as to how the BR joining will work. Will the join circles switch sides as players join a battle? At what point will a battle close? These are some pretty important questions that could make or break this feature when it is implemented and I hope @admin is considering all possible outcomes. 

As a few have already mentioned... the game needs a BR rebalance to implement this correctly. The current BR ratings made sense for PBs but not for the OW ROE mechanics being discussed. Although I do like the Hercules being a high BR 😃

[Capn Rocko]

33 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

As often, a feature, a change, even small updates can have consequencies not intended and even against the first intention.

I am more curious as to how many players will pass each other and neither side tags (either due to being attacker held in battle or BR ratings). 

[Macjimm]

13 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Looks like I am not the only one fanatic about "defensive tag".

Not sure if I'm a fanatic.  But I see that the "defensive tag" is an important tactic in the game.  But perhaps it should be removed, at least for all ships except small traders.

Aside from trading, it is useful to as a holding mechanism to allow allies a  chance to travel to the battle and join.  A smaller ship could tag a larger one, or a more powerful fleet, in a effort to delay.   Perhaps it is okay to turn this act into suicide if it creates more PvP.   

I had envisioned NA to be a recreation of the age of sail.   Weather, illness, shipwrecks,  and trade were huge factors for all nations of sail.  Storm damage, crew health and the possibility of running aground have never been included.  Navigational skill has been almost removed.   This death circle proposal will eliminate small trading, or make solo traders akin to a duck in a barrel with no chance of avoiding defeat. 

PvP is important.  I enjoy the risk and the excitement.  But a game that is focused mostly on fighting may not be very interesting to lots of people.

[Capn Rocko]

Defensive tags were more viable when the tag circles were bigger.