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Wind

Balancing Hercules and Le Requin with other Free ships

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4 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Lol.....

You spent money already buying this early access. If you want to spend MORE money on gimmicks and ships, that is up to you.

So, the point of having them in game? Ask developers :)

About thinking? You can`t think. You just spam crap here.

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Edited by Wind

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Guys preventing herc and requin from entering PB will not make much diffrence while they may not enter port battle they still could screen outside

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1 hour ago, Christendom said:

I don’t follow.  My suggestion would be to protect the very little amount of content we do have and not let pay to win schemes ruin it.  But that’s just me. 

If people want to buy ships and rule the waves of the OW.. sure   But allowing p2w ships in this games only form of high end content would be a very poor decision.  The teams that pay the most will always win

 

Game is already pay to win. 20 alts vs 1  is pay to win. 1st rate factory ran by 1 player is pay to win. My suggestion was to balance free ships vs premium ones. Give free ships a buff with guns and HP. For every premium ship there must be a free ship that can give a fight and have a chance to win. 

ex. Rename Niagara to Lion. Give it a new paint, and larger guns and hp to match Herc. Make it a mark exchange ship. Done. 

Edited by Wind

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24 minutes ago, Wind said:

So, what is the point of having them in game after all? I paid $20 for that ship that I can't take to PB? no one will buy such content. Where is your thinking here? 

is 20€ confirmed? or is it still just my guess? Dont take me to serious there :D

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7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

is 20€ confirmed? or is it still just my guess? Dont take me to serious there :D

$10 looks reasonable for a small ship, $15 - 4th rate/1st rate. It doesn't mater what price premium content is always the best and that is why it's premium. I just want to see small useless ships get a refit and match Premium ships. If Devs can figure it out, then they can spam premium content left and right. This means all my favorite ships might get in the game )) that I will buy without question. 

Edited by Wind

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15 minutes ago, Wind said:

Game is already pay to win. 20 alts vs 1  is pay to win. 1st rate factory ran by 1 player is pay to win. My suggestion was to balance free ships vs premium ones. Give free ships a buff with guns and HP. For every premium ship there must be a free ship that can give a fight and have a chance to win. 

Alts that you have to put time and effort into leveling and positioning.  Buying more accounts isn't pay to win, its simply buying more accounts to play the game more.

Purchasing an OP shallow water ship that is 2x better than the closest competition and then taking them into a PB vs players WHO did not purchase the ship is gaining a steep competitive advantage with the click of a button and the swipe of a card.  That is pay to win.  Leveling up another account you have to pay for the privilege to spend more time on this game.  See the difference?

Admin referenced world of warcraft earlier today.  One can purchase many things related to the game via tokens or IRL money.  Game time, character names, account transfers, faction chances, faster mounts, skins..pets...whatever.  What you CANNOT purchase is an item that will give you a competitive edge in it's end game raiding.  I feel GameLabs should follow a similar line of thought here.  

I'll wager you haven't sailed the herc around much.  I've actually taken one into a port battle a few times.  It's bullshit OP.  It's also fun.  If you want to sail around the shallows and terrorize shipping or random PVP, that's 20 bucks well spent.  Using it for competitive conquest would be a disaster for shallow water battles, which are supposed to be the entry level battle in this game for newer players.  Imagine a bunch of noobs grind up a shallow port and attempt their first battle, they immediately get smashed by 15 hercs and sink none.  Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me.  

This is a pure pay to win cash grab and frankly it stinks.  

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3 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

My suggestions:

1. Easy fix - Make Xebec & Hercules 100BR. It will balance things much better for RvR. 110-120 would be still acceptable, but let's test 100 now, ok? No need to take drastic steps.

2. Big fix - shallows, shallows, shallows. Different level of shallows. Something we've asked for years. Shallows of different depth in OW and battles. I'm almost sure Hercules has deeper draft than other shallow ships. Imagine waters where Hercules gets stuck and Niagara just goes through nice and smooth. This would add another strategic depth into the battles and promote ship variety.

+1 and repeat. Hydrographics and individual drafts may be too much programming but let's at least have more detail than shallow/deep. BR may be easy fix.

Let's not throw out any semblance of historical ship armament because of this Herc PB issue please. Ok do take away the poods on the Herc, frankly they are seriously questionable as a main ship armament anyway.

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11 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

This is what we've done to pirates many times when they tried to capture Blondel Cay, with a difference we've done it without Hercs. Bad players will always lose to good players. Bad players in Hercs will lose to good players in other ships. 

then clearly you don't need the extra advantage of hercs.  

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29 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Imagine a bunch of noobs grind up a shallow port and attempt their first battle, they immediately get smashed by 15 hercs and sink none.  Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. 

3 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

This is what we've done to pirates many times when they tried to capture Blondel Cay, with a difference we've done it without Hercs. Bad players will always lose to good players. Bad players in Hercs will lose to good players in other ships. 

That may be true. Yet on a level playing field in terms of skill, in a 2k BR PB (arbitrary number just for the example). 25 Hercs will pulverise 25 Heavy Rattlers with minmal losses. (or 21 each if you count in some princes and a mortar brig).

I'd say if you want the Herc in PBs make it's BR at least 110. Still would give you 18 Hercs in that example. Making the battle somwhat even.  If the BR were set lower than 110 I'd suggest reducing calibre to 12-pounders on the Herc.

Getting steamrolled by experienced players in the beginning sucks, but it sucks the same for everyone. Getting stomped by other noobs just because they sail premium

ships is a different thing.

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5 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

18 Hercules defeats 25 niagaras with ease.

I don't think we will hit the bullseye on the first go. If it's not enough, adjust the BR further. Tbf Herc provide a much bigger target than Niagaras. With 32pd Carros you can wreck a Herc's side fairly quickly. Personally I find getting every shot in with the Hercs broadside more challenging than Rattlers or Niagaras, because of it's slow firing cadence.

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As someone who sails a herc in the OW on a semi-regular basis I can say that I don't believe that the Hercules needs a nerf at all. A single heavy rattler, captained by someone with enough competence to take the wind early can fill her with enough leaks to make it go blub. I have lost 2 Hercules already, 1 from the evil circle mechanic (chased a ship outside circle, boarded it, and couldn't finish it off before timer expired), and the other to a good ol' fashioned 8v2.  The Hercules is entirely over hyped, the time it takes to fire a full broadside is ridiculous compared to a heavy rattler or a Niagara, most ships are past you by the time your rear quarter opens up. All it takes is coordination to take one down, I have been in a few close fights already with sometimes even numbers. As for a 1v1, no other non-premium shallow ship is supposed to stand a chance anyway, hence why it is a "premium ship" and very, very hard/expensive to get.  I have fought with and against the Hercules more then the average person, seeing as though I do most of my PvP in the shallows, and I can tell you it is not as formidable as most people make it out to be.  A adept group of sailors who utilize focus fire and side angling can take one down with relative ease.  The only thing I would change is the BR, I agree wholeheartedly that it should be increased to 100.

Cheers

Edited by The Last Templar
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shoot+em+up+pg+guns.jpg

Sure a bunch of bad/random players will (almost)never defeat pro/organized players. We see that every days at KPR. But the gap gear and ships can create doesnt have to be a factor as well.

Good players in hercs will make bad players leave instant because why should they even try. Sure "imported" ships have to be special otherwise nobody would care and buy. But currently herc is to good in everything even the xebec has a lot of pros and not much cons.

Still I wouldnt call that pay to win, because not everybody will get free wins. But do we have to make gaps even bigger?

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7 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Let me translate.

"Because I paid several millions for each Hercules Note I deserve to have a ship without rival". Pay to Win mentality.

Because I choose to save my money IN-GAME, stock up marks IN-GAME, and use those earnings to purchase notes instead of pvp rewards, new ships, new books, and upgrades?You have missed the point entirely good sir, this has nothing to do with pay to win, you simply picked one part of the statement to use to suit your point. I would never spend REAL money on "elite content" in a game,  and refuse to play games that implement that facet. In-game earnings, gained through TIME and DEDICATION, are not the same as a "pay to win mentality."

Edited by The Last Templar
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advantage through ingame effort = reasonable

advantage through money = unreasonable

money = rl effort = time = ingame effort -> actually it kind of looks the same :D both are time consuming^^

So shouldnt be everything hidden behind a grind wall/or pay wall be unreasonable?

Edited by z4ys

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3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

What will happen when you cant get more Hercules Notes paying for them ingame? What will happen when other can sail it by paying?

Then those dedicated players might just find another game to play, because their dedication is no longer worth much. It is frankly quite frustrating to put in effort for something only to than have someone with a bigger wallet get to the good stuff without lifting much of a finger.

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2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

You are quite shortsighted sir. Thats the issue.

What will happen when you cant get more Hercules Notes paying for them ingame? What will happen when other can sail it by paying?

 

Show me the quote by admin saying that "in the future you will have to pay real money to receive a hercules note" and I will rest my case. Until then, you assumptions and petty insults merely show a resound lack of maturity, the likes of which I'm done placating.  Forums are used for constructive debates and I will waste no more time having an extremity contest measuring to stroke an ego.

Good Day

Edited by The Last Templar

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50 minutes ago, The Last Templar said:

Because I choose to save my money IN-GAME, stock up marks IN-GAME, and use those earnings to purchase notes instead of pvp rewards, new ships, new books, and upgrades?You have missed the point entirely good sir, this has nothing to do with pay to win, you simply picked one part of the statement to use to suit your point. I would never spend REAL money on "elite content" in a game,  and refuse to play games that implement that facet. In-game earnings, gained through TIME and DEDICATION, are not the same as a "pay to win mentality."

Show me a picture or screenshot where a herc loses a 1v1 against a heavy rattle or niagara with opponents who are the same level.

Show me a screenshot where a port battle fleet with less hercs beats a fleet with more hercs where the groups are of equal level.

I'm waiting. So far I have never seen a picture where the side with more hercs lose.

Edited by Teutonic
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2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

So far I haven't seen fleets use Hercs due to fear of losing them. Only experienced players use them. No testing = no data. Pure assumptions.

Fleet practice is always open

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I can understand the problem of balance raised by Christendom about shallow port battles, but all the rest seems actually an overreaction.

At the end of the story the mighty hercules could end up costing 10 dollars or something like that ... so let's wait the acutal DLCs before rising a shitstorm for an allegedly P2W ship (only in shallows waters BTW) that a player could purchase once for good for the price of a pizza + beer in a cheap restaurant.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

My suggestions:

1. Easy fix - Make Xebec & Hercules 100BR. It will balance things much better for RvR. 110-120 would be still acceptable, but let's test 100 now, ok? No need to take drastic steps.

2. Big fix - shallows, shallows, shallows. Different level of shallows. Something we've asked for years. Shallows of different depth in OW and battles. I'm almost sure Hercules has deeper draft than other shallow ships. Imagine waters where Hercules gets stuck and Niagara just goes through nice and smooth. This would add another strategic depth into the battles and promote ship variety.

+1

Beyond getting stuck, I understand that there is some historical precedent for ships running into underwater rocks suffering some kind of damage.

It would be great to see naval strategy pull some more weight in the game. It seems to me that the strategy in the game currently  is all about choosing which mods and upgrades to ruin the authenticity of your ship's performance with.

Getting the weather gauge and keeping your bearings provides precious  little advantage compared with having l337 sniper skilz. 

Having to pay attention to shallows would go a long way to bringing some more strategy into the game.

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57 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

When one side, outnumbered (7vs12, remember?), slaughters the other maybe something more is happening there.

Eh... I have seen battles won against much worse odds, no premium ships involved. Just look at KPR these last weeks. (And before you ask: No, I do not have screenshots at the ready , I am playing the game, not making a documentary :lol:.)

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RIP me. Defends admin about pay to win, goes to read new patch notes and sees "pay to win" in Hercules and Xebec notes...

No words

@Intrepido , you were right about that, it will indeed become a pay to win scenario. My apologies 😕

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