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Wind

Balancing Hercules and Le Requin with other Free ships

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He is my suggestion on how to balance free ships vs Imports. Give free ships a better guns options and boost their HP/Thickness to match Imports. 

Rattlesnake Heavy vs Hercules

GIve rattlesnake 12pd guns and boost side armor a little.

Niagara vs La Requin

Give Niagara 12pd guns and boost side armor

Adjust other specs accordingly 

How to calculate

Shortest time it takes to unload Hercules/ La requin broadside + maximum damage with perks ------ should be matched by gun weight that would cause the same or close amount of damage in any given time.

ex. ship unloads broadside every 30 seconds and causes 1000 damage every 60 seconds then 12pd guns should cause 1000 damage every 60 seconds.

Test penetration and match guns on Free ships. If import ship can penetrate better at 200 yards, boost armor on Free ship. 

Then take these 2 ships and calculate how fast they flip and fire the next broadside. Adjust turn rates and boost armor if needed on free ships. If import ship can do x2 broadsides more, penetrate x2 better then you have a bad balance. 

If Imports ship carries more armor, free ship must have larger guns to penetrate it and fast enough to try to evade it. If Import ship carries more firepower then Free ship must have thicker armor to resist it and so on. 

*NOTE If Devs add Import ships DLC and do not balance any free ships then we are officially Pay to Win. 

 

Suggest better options. 

Edited by Wind
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I'm not sure if you understand that you want to give shallow ships bigger guns than Surprise/Cerberus/LGV carry. Herc already does, that's true... 

Also you forget about Brigs, Snows, Princes etc. Shallows are not only about Niagaras and Heavy Rattles. We need a good variety range of all ships.

Edited by Banished Privateer
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I'd rather nerf the herc and requin then have to take effort in buffing 3-4 other ships which were "perfectly" balanced before.

Before the Herc came into the game, the hvy rattle, niagara, and prince were at the best balance i've ever seen in this game, with only the mercury needing some love....

I'd love to hear how you deal with 18pd/pood gun shallow ship. 

I would drop the 18pd to 12pd on the herc as a start so they lose the ability for pood guns too.

Edited by Teutonic
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3rd type of pbs (beside shallow, deep). Giving herc, xebec, cerb, surprise, belle poule and other (max 12pd frigs) a room to be valid in rvr

Edited by z4ys
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Or you could limit them for each team. Let's say an absolute maximum of 2 Hercs or Requins or something like that.

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4 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Nerf Le Requin and Hercules to rattle/niagara/mercury levels.

To compensate Hercules heavy broadside make it a glass and slow ship. Same goes for Le Requin except I would nerf the turnrate on that one instead of speed.

mods will still ruin such nerfs

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31 minutes ago, Wind said:

 

*NOTE If Devs add Import ships DLC and do not balance any free ships then we are officially Pay to Win. 

 

Suggest better options. 

9 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Nerf Le Requin and Hercules to rattle/niagara/mercury levels.

To compensate Hercules heavy broadside make it a glass and slow ship. Same goes for Le Requin except I would nerf the turnrate on that one instead of speed.

C'mon guys, let's be realist of once.

If premium content is not ... premium, who is disposed to buy it?

Or even worse: if they launch a ship as premium (so a bit OP) and then they stealth-nerf it by tweaking the other ships, who will buy next DLC ships? Once bitten, twice shy.

New money is the only way to have new contents properly developed in this game also for people that will not buy DLCs.

And to get new money you have to sell good things.

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My suggestions:

1. Easy fix - Make Xebec & Hercules 100BR. It will balance things much better for RvR. 110-120 would be still acceptable, but let's test 100 now, ok? No need to take drastic steps.

2. Big fix - shallows, shallows, shallows. Different level of shallows. Something we've asked for years. Shallows of different depth in OW and battles. I'm almost sure Hercules has deeper draft than other shallow ships. Imagine waters where Hercules gets stuck and Niagara just goes through nice and smooth. This would add another strategic depth into the battles and promote ship variety.

Edited by Banished Privateer
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2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

2. Big fix - shallows, shallows, shallows. Different level of shallows. Something we've asked for years. Shallows of different depth in OW and battles. I'm almost sure Hercules has deeper draft than other shallow ships. Imagine waters where Hercules gets stuck and Niagara just goes through nice and smooth. This would add another strategic depth into the battles and promote ship variety.

Thats the ultimate change. :) I would start with this. Might even easier and faster to achieve.

24 minutes ago, z4ys said:

3rd type of pbs (beside shallow, deep). Giving herc, xebec, cerb, surprise, belle poule and other (max 12pd frigs) a room to be valid in rvr

 

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Xebec 120, Hercules close to Cerberus. 

How many H. Rattle can a Hercules fight against? 

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Give me best player in Hercules and 2 H. Rattles will easily kill him. Hercules is extremely hard ship in control and you guys want to exterminate it from RvR. 140 is the BR of Cerberus, 150 BR of Renomee and 155 BR of Surprise. Let's be more serious.

@z4ys Mid-PB between shallow and deep doesn't make any sense. We need a BR balance.

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Let the herc be a premium OP ship and just have it be the scourge of the shallows.  Just not shallow PBs.

All premium ships purchased through DLC should be exempt from port battles / end game conquest.  Allowing them in creates a very slippery pay to win dynamic I think most people would prefer this game not take that route

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And the wasa is 305 BR while the agga is 300, yet the wasa will blow it out of the park. We have the ocean at 580 and the santi at 605 and yet the BRs here should be switched. 

I never considered this BR balance we have now to even remotely be fair or balanced.

That being said, I believe the Herc should be at 120br, but I am willing to take the small increment first to 100 to see if it does anything to PB outcomes.

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4 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Let the herc be a premium OP ship and just have it be the scourge of the shallows.  Just not shallow PBs.

All premium ships purchased through DLC should be exempt from port battles / end game conquest.  Allowing them in creates a very slippery pay to win dynamic I think most people would prefer this game not take that route

that's actually the most reasonable (and easy) solution

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11 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

That being said, I believe the Herc should be at 120br

140 :) same as Cerberus.

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56 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

 

2. Big fix - shallows, shallows, shallows. Different level of shallows. Something we've asked for years. Shallows of different depth in OW and battles. I'm almost sure Hercules has deeper draft than other shallow ships. Imagine waters where Hercules gets stuck and Niagara just goes through nice and smooth. This would add another strategic depth into the battles and promote ship variety.

So much this. And also waters where even Snows and Niagaras will suffer and the smallest ships shine :D . Plus individual and detailed hydrographic charts of ports and their surroundings (or OW). Who doesn't know their waters well, might get stuck.

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7 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

So much this. And also waters where even Snows and Niagaras will suffer and the smallest ships shine :D . Plus individual and detailed hydrographic charts of ports and their surroundings (or OW). Who doesn't know their waters well, might get stuck.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PleasantRamshackleFennelMau5?tt_medium=create

You wanna see more of this? In a single player game ofc but in a mmo people cant even handle leeway

Edited by z4ys

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1 hour ago, Banished Privateer said:

I'm not sure if you understand that you want to give shallow ships bigger guns than Surprise/Cerberus/LGV carry. Herc already does, that's true... 

Also you forget about Brigs, Snows, Princes etc. Shallows are not only about Niagaras and Heavy Rattles. We need a good variety range of all ships.

and? they have 1/2 armor compared to the ships you named. 

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51 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Let the herc be a premium OP ship and just have it be the scourge of the shallows.  Just not shallow PBs.

All premium ships purchased through DLC should be exempt from port battles / end game conquest.  Allowing them in creates a very slippery pay to win dynamic I think most people would prefer this game not take that route

You are adding and removing content at the same time. 

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24 minutes ago, z4ys said:

https://clips.twitch.tv/PleasantRamshackleFennelMau5?tt_medium=create

You wanna see more of this? In a single player game ofc but in a mmo people cant even handle leeway

people have to learn and adapt. Getting stuck with a big ship not suited for these particular waters is the players problem and yes I would love to see more of that. stuck ships could also be freed again. If you bring bigger ships you have to maneuver carefully to get to the fight/circle, while the defender already is shooting at you in his smaller more suited ships. Or you bring more appropriate ships yourself and have a wider playing field. I think I mentioned it already at some time but I always have the battle of grand port in mind as a good example. Port battles will be more than just a big open sea clash which coincidentally has land around it. More importantly the need of discussing about the BR of ships and the BR restriction of port battles can play a smaller role if the real draught of the ships plays a more important role.

And of course I think it shouldn't be so challenging that we have narrow channels where only one ship would fit through with almost no space left.

 

In the meantime the only possibility I see at balancing DLC ships is adjusting their BR accordingly.

Edited by Cecil Selous

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16 minutes ago, Wind said:

You are adding and removing content at the same time. 

I don’t follow.  My suggestion would be to protect the very little amount of content we do have and not let pay to win schemes ruin it.  But that’s just me. 

If people want to buy ships and rule the waves of the OW.. sure   But allowing p2w ships in this games only form of high end content would be a very poor decision.  The teams that pay the most will always win

 

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2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I'd rather nerf the herc and requin then have to take effort in buffing 3-4 other ships which were "perfectly" balanced before.

Before the Herc came into the game, the hvy rattle, niagara, and prince we at the best balance i've ever seen in this game, with only the mercury needing some love....

I'd love to hear how you deal with 18pd/pood gun shallow ship. 

I would drop the 18pd to 12pd on the herc as a start so they lose the ability for pood guns too.

No need to "nerf" them. Should only not be able to enter PB. Would be a good beginning.

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36 minutes ago, Fenris said:

No need to "nerf" them. Should only not be able to enter PB. Would be a good beginning.

So, what is the point of having them in game after all? I paid $20 for that ship that I can't take to PB? no one will buy such content. Where is your thinking here? 

Edited by Wind

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