Damage model 4.0 - Finalization of combat mechanics

[admin]

Ballistics and Damage model 4.0

 

To make the gameplay feel real and provide more tactical depth: we will be gradually moving to the final damage model, which has passed several iterations before.  To find out how previous systems worked please refer to the Damage 2.0 and Damage 3.0 posts on forums. The new system is in development. Testing of this new model will start by spring of 2015 or earlier.

 

Key new features

 

Penetration classes

Penetration exists now, but needs to be expanded for faster development and additions of new features. It also needs to be improved to allow for more customization of ships and weaponry. Cannons and ships will have a penetration class that will determine the ability to go through the armor. We believe that will provide more tactical diversity to combat. Ship armor will not be unified any longer. There will be weak spots to be exploited. Heavy planking at the waterline will make ship of the line more effective against lower level ships.

 

Angles and ricochets

Hitting a ship at narrow angle will ricochet from the ship hull. Longer guns with higher cannonball velocity will have better chances to penetrate at angles. This will make positioning very important. This feature is completely new and gameplay might change significantly and will require testing.

 

Exact colliders and positioning of internal modules

We are moving to the exact collision models that fully represent the shape of the hull.  Same will be done with important internal modules. To blow up a bow magazine or break a frontal pump you will need to shoot at the front part of the ship.

 

 

Pass through shots

Gun ports will be implemented in the damage collider models. If the cannon ball does not hit anything it will pass through the ship and could hit the next target

 

Crew damage

Crew damage will also change significantly as crew will no longer be a unified mass of people. Crew will be located deck-by-deck creating the situations where you destroyed everyone on the top deck leaving intact gun crews on the gundeck. This system also will allow for potential expansions of detailed crew management if the need arise. 

 

Ballistics changes

We were very unsatisfied with the ballistics of carronades and frog like double shot and have reworked the formulas to allow better customization of cannons and fast additions of new features.  Reload penalties will be added to certain types of shot. New system could also allow for types of powder charge type weight if this feature is be needed.  Gun sights experiments will continue and we will test a couple of implementations of the sights next year.

 

Carronades will receive long overdue love and will be a formidable close range choice of weaponry. 

 

 

Feel free to provide suggestions, feedback, and improvement ideas.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

I like the way this is going a lot.  The above is exactly what I would expect to see in a game with the level of detail you are achieving and I look forward to testing the new model in the Spring!

[Balck]

Excellent!

 

With each passing day I keep being reminded why this is the best $40 I've spent on a game in years.  Keep up the good work!  I may be handing out a key or two to family and friends if they show interest 

 

And to go with the closing, some Norwegians giggling like school girls while playing with a carronade.

 

[Edward Pellew]

cool

[Turil]

I am really looking forward to it. Thanks for this interesting post!

[sam0100]

looks awesome. tired of everyone using the long cannons and being a sniper and can instantly load double and out damage anything.

[Edward Pellew]

That is your idea though sam.

[Robert Danforth]

Amazing.

 

I can't wait to test this!

[Alex Connor]

Yeah, I think long cannon are a bit OP right now. Not just the extreme long range (why can you elevate these guns more? The long barrel increases muzzle velocity and thus range, but with elevation added too these guns have so much more range), but also the ability to use double shot at longer ranges of perhaps 500-600 ft where normal cannon are still using regular shot. Compared to this the reload penalty is a very small trade-off.

 

Speaking of double-shot, are there plans to make this type fire 2 cannonballs?

 

The new damage system looks amazing, existing system is good and a solid base to work from but this is just fantastic, realistic and intuitive, I don't think this level of detail has been achieved in a sailing ship game before (even simulators)    

 

One comment though, perhaps the "health" of cannon can be increased (compared to current system)? I was noticing in the Bellona, many times losing cannon to fire from small ships that was doing almost nothing to my hull. Maybe a 6lb shot would break the gun carriage if it hit that, but if it only hits the barrel of a 2.5 ton gun I don't think this will dismount the gun...

[Petrov]

Good stuff guys!

[Leviathan]

Sounds good and look forward to seeing the changes. Any chance we finally see fire and explosion implemented with this build?

[Magnum]

OOOOO yes - I hope we get magazine explosions (on rare occasions)!

 

Red Hot Shot?

 

Really enjoying the $40 worth - money well spent indeed!

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Hot shot wasn't used aboard vessels, only by shore fortifications if memory serves.

[NorthernWolves]

And you said keep expectations low... that's the last time I'll listen to you

[NorthernWolves]

Hot shot wasn't used aboard vessels, only by shore fortifications if memory serves.

Well it was used but was exceedingly rare and as such only special ships should have it and it should be exceptionally dangerous to use.

"Its use was mainly confined to shore batteries and forts, due to the need for a special furnace to heat the shot, and their use from a ship was in fact against Royal Navy regulations because they were so dangerous, although the American ship USS Constitution had a shot furnace installed, for hot shot to be fired from her carronades. The French Romaine-class frigates originally also featured the device, but they proved impractical, dangerous to the ships themselves, and were later discarded."

"In 1801, several days after the Battle of Algeciras Bay, two Spanish ships of the line exploded, killing near 1700 sailors. According to various sources, the fire that caused the explosions of both ships originated from heated shots fired by HMS Superb."

[BBrown]

Good stuff. I like the sound and look of this

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Well it was used but was exceedingly rare and as such only special ships should have it and it should be exceptionally dangerous to use.

"Its use was mainly confined to shore batteries and forts, due to the need for a special furnace to heat the shot, and their use from a ship was in fact against Royal Navy regulations because they were so dangerous, although the American ship USS Constitution had a shot furnace installed, for hot shot to be fired from her carronades. The French Romaine-class frigates originally also featured the device, but they proved impractical, dangerous to the ships themselves, and were later discarded."

"In 1801, several days after the Battle of Algeciras Bay, two Spanish ships of the line exploded, killing near 1700 sailors. According to various sources, the fire that caused the explosions of both ships originated from heated shots fired by HMS Superb."

 

My impression was that it was more dangerous to the ship trying to use it than to that ship's targets, yes.  

[Alatriste]

This looks very promising. It'll need a lot of tweaking though to make this right.

[Ink]

great news 

[Balck]

This looks very promising. It'll need a lot of tweaking though to make this right.

And that's why we're here 

[akd]

This sounds great, but a few questions and comments:

Penetration classes

Penetration exists now, but needs to be expanded for faster development and additions of new features. It also needs to be improved to allow for more customization of ships and weaponry. Cannons and ships will have a penetration class that will determine the ability to go through the armor.

I don't understand this. Shouldn't penetration be calculated based on velocity, caliber, mass and angle? What are "classes"?

There will be weak spots to be exploited. Heavy planking at the waterline will make ship of the line more effective against lower level ships.

Does this mean the hull of a ship will no longer be considered weak at the stern below the galleries, making it easy to sink a large ship even using small cannons by removing "armor" until ship floods? Will the bow be strengthened overall, even high above waterline?

Exact colliders and positioning of internal modules

We are moving to the exact collision models that fully represent the shape of the hull. Same will be done with important internal modules. To blow up a bow magazine or break a frontal pump you will need to shoot at the front part of the ship.

Awesome, but again, the powder magazines were located below the waterline and should be invulnerable to direct fire except in exceptional circumstances (elevated guns firing down into a much lower ship).

Pass through shots

Gun ports will be implemented in the damage collider models. If the cannon ball does not hit anything it will pass through the ship and could hit the next target

Is the physical presence of cannons considered in this? They would occupy a large portion of the open port space and substantially reduce the chance that a shot could pass through without hitting anything (and thus stopping or deviating).

Ballistics changes

We were very unsatisfied with the ballistics of carronades and frog like double shot and have reworked the formulas to allow better customization of cannons and fast additions of new features. Reload penalties will be added to certain types of shot. New system could also allow for types of powder charge type weight if this feature is be needed. Gun sights experiments will continue and we will test a couple of implementations of the sights next year.

What are the assumptions made behind ballistics of carronades in game currently? It seems to me they are simply considered short-barreled cannon firing shot of the same weight with a smaller charge. While that seems a straight forward implementation, reality was more complex:

-Carronades were shorter and used smaller charges, but they had less "windage" (space between barrel and shot). This would partly make up for the velocity loss (less windage makes the charge more efficient).

-Carronade shot was hollow and thus weighed less for its size compared to cannon shot of the same named weight, i.e. 32lb carronade shot actually weighed significantly less than 32lb. This would also improve muzzle velocity (but lead to faster loss of velocity with range).

Do planned improvements account for the above?

p.s. Merry Christmas everyone!

[SirGeorge]

Hi everyone! (first Post )

This is the way i think it was meant, no idea if i'm right or wrong.

Let's assume i'm partly right.

 

I don't understand this. Shouldn't penetration be calculated based on velocity, caliber, mass and angle? What are "classes"?

It seams as "class" stands for grouping guns and ship parts with premade calculations. Computers are fast in calculating but you can not calculate every single shot full realistically in a battle with >20 SOLs by ~60fps or so. Your computer had to draw the graphics and the server had to calculate the shot and the position and armor of the other ships. Both should use the same (or nearly) formula for the curve of the shot (i do not think that the server is sending the round position for every frame you get displayed ). When the server detects a collision between a round and a vessel the velocity vector and "class" of the round and the "class" of the object that got hit will be put in a fix formula.

 

Does this mean the hull of a ship will no longer be considered weak at the stern below the galleries, making it easy to sink a large ship even using small cannons by removing "armor" until ship floods? Will the bow be strengthened overall, even high above waterline?

When you look at the picture it seams to me that die different colors indicate different "classes" like under water armor, armor, deck armor, crew on deck, crew at gun deck, guns and gallery glass.

The color difference of the guns has to do with the lighting it seams.

 

Is the physical presence of cannons considered in this? They would occupy a large portion of the open port space and substantially reduce the chance that a shot could pass through without hitting anything (and thus stopping or deviating).

The blocks looking out of the gun ports should answer that.

So when you shot trough a gun port the gun and/or gun crew and maybe other things will take damage but not the armor at the side of the gun port.

I have no idea of the exact firing arc of a carronade nor of the penetration so i will skip on that.

 

p.s. Merry Christmas everyone!

Merry Christmas to you too!

George

[IIN8II]

Great news on the advanced damage modeling. What about the ability to load different types of shot on different decks and fire them separately?

[Magnum]

When a SOL fires at a small ship from long range - most of the balls should either miss or have reduced "kill power" and the smaller cannon on the small ships might mostly bounce off a SOL if they don't miss.

 

The second part might already be covered well enough.

 

[maturin]

I only have a few seconds to write a response, so here is my general reaction

 

 

Every time someone mentions magazines, though, I get nervous.

 

They are located below the waterline where no shot can reach. The devs are currently nerfing mast damage down to zero because players complain about suffering from lucky shots. So how can lucky hits to the magazine ever be a viable feature or anything more than an incredible annoyance? And one with no basis in reality as well.