Daguse Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, Prater said: This isn't really an exploit though. It is an out of game program that they cannot fully guard against. Though, one way they could make it more difficult is encrypt the game logs so we can't read them. well, I was more referring to other exploits that aren't patch out. However the site is down now, I believe they did fix this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanay Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Interesting thread and posts here, not really surprised to see chat loggers of this form tho, there is certainly way to get rid of this beside removing chat logs, and i would not mind to move to a different chat system not based on jaber protocol if i recall correctly, the current one is sluggish and laggy for fast typers anyways ... About alts i proposed something they could easily implement so burned alts will either stay burned or they will have to buy some other alts : I'm fed up of seeing blatant spies we can do nothing against, unless using an alt to fight them...and all they have to do once burned is delete character and get a new virgin one... Track the history of a Steam account and make it public, make them pay for the spies if they get burned... Would like to see some constraints like in the post just above too. Edited August 10, 2017 by Kanay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbancourt Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Otto Kohl said: Everybody use alts to spy. No, it's only a small fraction of players that have alts. If the devs are going to allow alts there needs to be actual consequences for spying. Some mechanism that when they get caught spying in game their character is hanged and ALL their accounts are then wiped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Wraith said: Actually, removing the chat logs on system isn't really a defense against this. In my testing there are other ways to scrape chat chatter coming to the client, so all posting this has done is forced the behavior underground again. My point in exposing this is mostly to point out that the use of alts, and the machinations in RoE and other rules to make alts less important are really only hurting players without alts. We can't have nice things because a small percentage of players are massively gaming the system, and perhaps instead we should just give players the nice things and expel the alts that are inevitably exposed? The reasoning @admin doesn't do this is likely a combination of monetized incentives for them combined with Steam TOS. If exposed alts, as determined by a tribunal, essentially turned a player renegade (no ports available by any means except for free ports, no tagging or being tagged, and/or no labor hours, trading, etc.) then perhaps people would be less brazen in their usage? Yes, you can screen scrape, but that is harder to do than just importing a log, but it wouldn't take long to figure out. Screen scraping is actually partly how I mapped the world towards the end of compiling all the coastal points. Even if they did remove player location from the logs or encrypted them, you still could get world location by screen scraping the f11 screen (what I did), but ocr isn't perfect if you aren't an expert at it and can give incorrect results. "The" can easily be read as Tl-ie in certain situations. x 1006 becomes l00S. Stuff like that. There are tricks to cleaning it up, but this takes a bit to work out if you are looking into screen scraping for the first time. 18 minutes ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said: No, it's only a small fraction of players that have alts. If the devs are going to allow alts there needs to be actual consequences for spying. Some mechanism that when they get caught spying in game their character is hanged and ALL their accounts are then wiped. I suggested that a caught alt gets moved to the nation of the main account, the progress of the alt gets completely wiped (no assets, money, xp, ship knowledge, skills, perks), and the alt can no longer change nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christendom Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 crickets...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodo Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Christendom said: crickets...... Of course we will get no response from the dev, it is after "working" hours for him. And he will ignore this post like all the others on this very subject. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhodry Heidenrich Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Wow... Just... wow....... Each time more of this crap comes to light I'm glad I removed myself from being guilty by mere association. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbancourt Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Prater said: I suggested that a caught alt gets moved to the nation of the main account, the progress of the alt gets completely wiped (no assets, money, xp, ship knowledge, skills, perks), and the alt can no longer change nations. That would not be a deterrent. Almost nothing is invested in alts. There needs to be terminal consequences. Wipe ALL their accounts. If you get hanged as a spy you have to start over. Edited August 10, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said: That would not be a deterrent. Almost nothing is invested in alts. There needs to be terminal consequences. Wipe ALL their accounts. If you get hanged as a spy you have to start over. How is it not a deterrent? Plenty of people have stuff invested in alts. Plus, that account is now forced into the nation of the main account, permanently. That's a $40 deterrent of now you have to buy another copy to have a spy. And if that spy gets caught, that's another $40 investment if you still want to spy. Eventually it starts to add up. The main account shouldn't be affected, it wasn't spying. Why would the nation execute its own captain? Edited August 10, 2017 by Prater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbancourt Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Prater said: How is it not a deterrent? Plenty of people have stuff invested in alts. Plus, that account is now forced into the nation of the main account, permanently. That's a $40 deterrent of now you have to buy another copy to have a spy. And if that spy gets caught, that's another $40 investment if you still want to spy. Eventually it starts to add up. The main account shouldn't be affected, it wasn't spying. Why would the nation execute its own captain? The player was spying. Their alt is just a mask they wear in a different port. The consequences of being caught and hanged as a spy should be uniform across all of their accounts. I don't know how it could be implemented, but I'm just saying that's the way it should be. It isn't a deterrent to move their alt to their own nation. They're still getting the benefit of the extra outposts, buildings, dock slots, warehouse slots, labor hours, etc, etc Edited August 10, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said: The player was spying. Their alt is just a mask they wear in a different port. The consequences of being caught and hanged as a spy should be uniform across all of their accounts. I don't know how it could be implemented, but I'm just saying that's the way it should be. It isn't a deterrent to move their alt to their own nation. They're still getting the benefit of the extra outposts, buildings, dock slots, warehouse slots, labor hours, etc, etc They paid for the extra benefit. It is a deterrent because if they want to spy again, they have to buy another account. That's $40. That spy gets caught, another $40 if you want to continue to spy. And so on. Admin has already said that spying itself is ok. What is not ok and is punishable is being disruptive as a spy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Alfonso Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) Well GG this is why I left and stopped playing. Alts are now part of the game sadly. Just keep reporting them & sinking them if you can. Why we need a national smuggler mode again IMO which allows the player to attack anyone. Edited August 11, 2017 by Juan Alfonso Poor choice of words. Sarcasm must go both ways (I don't hate you BLACK) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JobaSet Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 You guys trip me out. I not even got to play today and all you do is bitch About Pirates. The log thing Comes from your hard drive lol. E:\Steam\steamapps\common\Naval Action\logs\Chat*.txt. And up to just a few weeks ago. It was all the Chat you had the info your self. So ready to for another game, so I can leave your crying ass here. Please don't go Play Star Citizen. Your cry baby asses wont last a week so save your money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vllad Posted August 11, 2017 Author Share Posted August 11, 2017 41 minutes ago, JobaSet said: You guys trip me out. I not even got to play today and all you do is bitch About Pirates. The log thing Comes from your hard drive lol. E:\Steam\steamapps\common\Naval Action\logs\Chat*.txt. And up to just a few weeks ago. It was all the Chat you had the info your self. So ready to for another game, so I can leave your crying ass here. Please don't go Play Star Citizen. Your cry baby asses wont last a week so save your money. I could respect your thoughts on the subject much more if your reading retention was higher. Believe it or not this is not about Pirates. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The LoneWolf Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 10 hours ago, Vllad said: On Global we know who the Pirate spies are (Grand Merchant Loop) who just follow us around telling the Pirates what we are doing. So we now have to create Alts to tackle them to get them out of the way otherwise we can't really play the game effectively. Then the Pirates get to know those alts and create other ways to circumvent our alts so they can continue to spy. We are creating alts to kill alts in order to track alts that are used by alts to spy. Say that fast 3 times. When 25 guys just turn around and end the night and go play Hearts of Iron because we don't have a way to deal with ALTs on that particular evening you know your game is seriously screwed up. What you forgot or omitted to mention is that French are using alts and have been for some time. French were parking a pirate alt at mort and Coolbreeze66 was reporting ship movements in French chat. WO clan uses alts to spot for them before exiting battle. Yesterday, the Pirate fleet that left Castries for Trinidad Pb was screened by a danish alt (Ragnar or something) and a pirate alt on basic cutter (billy bones something). King of Crowns admitted on global today that he purchased an alt. Might be wise to look in mirror. From my perspective, you are just getting a taste of your own medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JobaSet Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Vllad said: I could respect your thoughts on the subject much more if your reading retention was higher. Believe it or not this is not about Pirates. You are right if Black was Spanish then it be Spanish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vernon Merrill Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Funny. I don't see: E:\Steam\steamapps\common\Naval Action\logs\Chat*.txt. anywhere in my game... Is it under shop, or ships maybe?... Or maybe the Admiralty?... Nope. Still don't see it. Maybe I need to hit the pray button and it pops up?.... Nope. Hmmmm. Maybe its under the "Repair" tab?.... Nope. Nope. Not part of my game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wren Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 10 hours ago, Wraith said: Look, I have no problem with alts used for economic means, and or legitimate, in-real-life spying assuming that they are actually played, leveled, and used by the person in a way that is legit. But when a single clan, which constitutes the bulk of an entire nation, has 5+ alts in every other nation coupled with an automated way to monitor nation and clan chats that have been infiltrated? This reinforces the pay-to-win nature of them to an extent that truly affects RvR and the balance of the game in meaningful ways. See these for what we are up against on the Global Server. This is an automated tool that some clan, who shall rename nameless in order to not besmirch the characters of the innocent, has developed to automate the capture of nation chats through the use of logged in alts (notice the "Active Spies" count for each nation below). It's quite well made, where perceived leaders in each nation can be highlighted and PvP results as well in different colors. The joy is that this can be monitored when not even logged into the game so that you can be alerted immediately when things are happening in your area. It's a great tool: This was communicated in private to the developers and we were told to just "deal with it" as nation chat is insecure, blah blah blah. So my thinking on alts is that the dev's will take every additional sale with a shot of vodka, regardless of the sale's intended use, and that third party tools like the above will flourish as long as people are willing to make them. But what this creates is a highly asymmetric landscape of competition across an already unbalanced server, and unfortunately the dance between the win-at-all-costs mentality vs. mechanics to create a fun and competitive MMO game world is being won by the pirates (used loosely here of course). This is a load of horse sh*t right here. If you are so in love with this game that you actually go to this extent to kill it then there is something seriously wrong with you. I don't see any reason to even bother playing with sh*itbirds like this. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Lust Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 10 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said: Why not just put a heat map in game?????? I'm wondering the same... 13 hours ago, Cortez said: Players use alts to get advantages in the game. No problem with that. Yeah, no problem it's pay2win and ruins balance but no problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JobaSet Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said: Funny. I don't see: E:\Steam\steamapps\common\Naval Action\logs\Chat*.txt. anywhere in my game... Is it under shop, or ships maybe?... Or maybe the Admiralty?... Nope. Still don't see it. Maybe I need to hit the pray button and it pops up?.... Nope. Hmmmm. Maybe its under the "Repair" tab?.... Nope. Nope. Not part of my game. Maybe You should get another monitor then. As its Clan,global, nation, combat and trade all of it, So no more having to bring up all the tabs that get in way and still missing stuff. It really nice. If you know java at all I mean like read past page 3 of any book you can make a txt reader. Edited August 11, 2017 by JobaSet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastidius Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 this is the problem with non AAA games tho. Its not really programming it's asset managing.... https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/61729 this is the chat asset. it is not secure and it is not their code so anyone can work out howto connect to their chat server if they know how the things work. Same with the GPS system.. anything that is available to clients is accessible. Speed hacks are obviously accessible...teleporting could be done also if you watched the traffic close enough. anything that is fed to the client is 100% hackable....even encryption wise is easy to hack if you can seed the encrypted data then the keys etc are in the code and there will be a buffer or somewhere where the decryption happens.....if you can isolate that then its a cakewalk.. how much effort you put into securing this stuff is generally enough for a 2 or 3rd year CS Student to not be able to hack you....not stop anyone. the things you can control tho are things like how engagements happen, and how the numbers work so although a person can cheat the cheat isn't defeating the game.... this is things like being able to run faster.....you dont defend that you monitor for it. however being able to be 1 shotted etc shoudl be defended against by checking for sanity of the variables. ie if a gun can do 100 damage and you hit someone then the variables passed must =< 100....this can be quite overheady depending on the number of items its tracking....which might be a reason for games to not scale up...Pubg for instance at 100 is pretty easy to code for that stuff because theres only X amount of shots happening at once and the checks only happen on hits etc. Honestly, though this is actually the best option the devs have without going into the private VOIP stuff....which is still fubar .....see PUBG lobbys. you cant defend against this stuff....just make it harder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JobaSet Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, Fastidius said: this is the problem with non AAA games tho. Its not really programming it's asset managing.... https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/61729 this is the chat asset. it is not secure and it is not their code so anyone can work out howto connect to their chat server if they know how the things work. Same with the GPS system.. anything that is available to clients is accessible. Speed hacks are obviously accessible...teleporting could be done also if you watched the traffic close enough. anything that is fed to the client is 100% hackable....even encryption wise is easy to hack if you can seed the encrypted data then the keys etc are in the code and there will be a buffer or somewhere where the decryption happens.....if you can isolate that then its a cakewalk.. how much effort you put into securing this stuff is generally enough for a 2 or 3rd year CS Student to not be able to hack you....not stop anyone. the things you can control tho are things like how engagements happen, and how the numbers work so although a person can cheat the cheat isn't defeating the game.... this is things like being able to run faster.....you dont defend that you monitor for it. however being able to be 1 shotted etc shoudl be defended against by checking for sanity of the variables. ie if a gun can do 100 damage and you hit someone then the variables passed must =< 100....this can be quite overheady depending on the number of items its tracking....which might be a reason for games to not scale up...Pubg for instance at 100 is pretty easy to code for that stuff because theres only X amount of shots happening at once and the checks only happen on hits etc. Honestly, though this is actually the best option the devs have without going into the private VOIP stuff....which is still fubar .....see PUBG lobbys. you cant defend against this stuff....just make it harder wow !!! you went from reading a txt file on your local hard drive ... to actually hacking the game. You need to buy a few of https://www.amazon.com/Electro-Deflecto-Unisex-Foil-Size/dp/B01I497JAM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502435033&sr=8-1&keywords=tin+foil+hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastidius Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 doesn't matter if its text/packets/memory lcoations......if its on the client its not secure is my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwood Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 16 hours ago, The Red Duke said: What is the purpose of spying in our microcosm ? Not everyone does it. That's why some of us that do not would like to comprehend why I get it is a inherent player-made-mechanic in other games due to the fact that those games have, in place, specific situations that might require it. Despite the RL spying - some ship designs were state secrets, royal convoys secret routes, etc - what is the definite usefulness of a spy ? Let's assume a spy is not a alt account but an actual player. Under that scenario the content grows. There's something afoot but the "disloyal" captain is not a traitor, he simply gives away bit of info. Let's assume that the player spy is not actively passing "state secrets" but acting as a buyer of stolen goods, in truth beating his fellow traders to the bid and surely paying lower prices. Well, it is content made by actual players playing the game and having these "shady" sides to their in game character. Enter alts and the content gets corrupted, to a point. Having the entire purpose of overcoming some fences and deviating from having to participate in the "universe". Let's say that 3/4 of playtime by association are overcome by use of alts. Why buy from the produces when a second account can do it for "free" ? Why employ a dedicated crafter when a third account can do it ? Despite the time required to bring second accounts to these levels there's a lot that have been lost. Links with producers, contracts with crafters, transport guild, a lot can be done in the sandbox but, somehow we seem to not like these. So, what is the purpose of spying in our little corner of the ocean ? What is at stake ? There's nothing of importance in conquering empires. All the resources are readily available unlike in solid strategy games where trade is mandatory, and facilities for equipment manufacturing are by request wherever we wish with no limits. Veteran captains own ( even post wipe ) more ships than they will ever see sunk. So why spying or breaking a game with alt use ? Pure grieving or shortcut of time ? Are the mechanics too lenient or are the players simply not interested in creating a OW age of sail ? Do not blame the players for "not interested in creating the OW in age of sail". There are so many suggestions here, so good, they would make this game worth playing for thousands. But nobody is reading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwood Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 3 hours ago, Captain Lust said: I'm wondering the same... Yeah, no problem it's pay2win and ruins balance but no problem. Talk to developers and try to convince them how awesome your suggestions are. I think they won`t read/listen to you anyway, so stop pretending like your word matters here. Don`t blame me for this s..t. happening with alts. Good luck with your disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now