naval no action

[King of Crowns]

Just now, Blackjack Morgan said:

Congratulations!!! You just achieved a long term goal by completing 50 PVE missions to unlock your ship knowledge!!!!

HAHAHA. good one. once u get into the renom all the ships can be used for pvp ships. so just sail those while doing your pvp and you will be there in no time. I'm not gonna lie I don't care for the knowledge tree. having to unlock ships.

[Vllad]

14 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Because there is OW PvP.  For you this game is RvR, for me it provides more than that.  Revenge fleets are not healthy for example solo pirates.  As you probably know already.  I am not a solo pirate, but I really would like to see them in the game.  I would be much happier to remove revenge fleet exploit.

Fair point RideZ. You are correct this game can be unhealthy for solo captains. Then again maybe you should try to expand your horizons. I could think of a few things you could do in the RvR world to help make that solo experience better. 

You could trying being a sell sword. You could build a clan of sell swords. You could try being a Pirate in Pickles and Privateers vs trying it with 5th rates. No one builds revenge fleets for Privateers. You could build trader traps. You could leave the Pirates and be a Privateer for a nation. There are many other roles a solo player can do if being part of the realm is not your gig. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Vllad

[Sureshot]

Just now, Vllad said:

No one builds revenge fleets for Privateers. 

Actually that's untrue. I was just in my clans privateer fleet about 2 weeks ago, 6 of us and we had about 10 basic cutters, 3-4 picks, 5 frigates try to catch us. Though they didn't ofcoruse.  EU1 that is. !

So yeah you could be on a frigging raft and they would send a revenge fleet.  

[Vllad]

Just now, SeaHyena said:

Actually that's untrue. I was just in my clans privateer fleet about 2 weeks ago, 6 of us and we had about 10 basic cutters, 3-4 picks, 5 frigates try to catch us. Though they didn't ofcoruse.  EU1 that is. !

So yeah you could be on a frigging raft and they would send a revenge fleet.  

They key point being however that they failed. 

Revenge Fleet + Privateers = Fail. 

Now if the revenge fleet wants to put a group of Privateers together to beat on you then good for them! Smart play on their part. 

 

[Sureshot]

Just now, Vllad said:

Now if the revenge fleet wants to put a group of Privateers together to beat on you then good for them! Smart play on their part. 

Even better, they would go to our waters and raid us. Much more realistic than a arcade revenge fleet. ;p gg 

[Cmdr RideZ]

9 minutes ago, Vllad said:

You could trying being... You could build... You could try being... You could build... You could leave... 

Or maybe we just fix revenge ganks?  And if someone wants to be a solo pirate, he can.

Why you want to keep revenge ganks?  Why you think those are good for the game?

[akd]

You could just sail a basic cutter.  That way you can't attack anyone.  This is naval action: you aren't supposed to be attacking people.

[Prater]

39 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

Well since you asked sir, I will try to give a few specifics. Though to be honest I do like some of the new features as well:

1. I don't like having to grind xp on ships. It reminds me of the old system we tested when you had to get xp and certain ship kills to level...think it was called honor kills or something like that. I was not a fan of it then and still don't like it much now.

2. I don't like multiple repair kits in battles. Furthermore, I don't like having to carry around so many damn repair kits when I'm out on "patrol". It's either you carry them or you need to run back to a port to resupply. I understand the thought process behind it but I don't find that it brings "fun" to the game. It simply is a waste of my playtime and takes away from what you guys do so superbly....that's ship combat.

3. I hate the RNG loot drops. Hate, hate, hate them. I find it slightly absurd in a "realistic" game like NA that any national navy would expect their captains to go search for a random piece of equipment like a copper hull? The old system had some RNG in it as well and I was not a fan of that either to be fair. I think we should all have access to the mods we want to use through crafting at least. So many of the various books and mods offer such great bonuses you are at a real disadvantage in a pvp fight if you don't have them and your enemy does. I thought that part of the reason we were going with 1 dura ships was in an effort to cut down on the dependency of RNG mods and people could just hop in a ship or capped one without missing such large bonuses? It feels like by having 1 dura ships combined with so many buffs being RNG that the risk of losing that ship is even more severe.

Those are probably my three biggest complaints right now. I just wish that there was a little bit more happy middle ground between pre-wipe and post wipe is all. I don't see how allowing crafters to build all mods instead of trying to get a lucky drop is bad for the game. Gives crafters more stuff to build and sell and lets people who want to pvp just get their ship customized the way they want easier so they can do what they enjoy.

I agree, except for ship knowledge.  I think the more you use a ship, the more you should gain from it, but the bonuses need to be small so it isn't an absolute requirement.

[Cecil Selous]

1 hour ago, Vllad said:

If you were walking down the road in Shadowbane and you get jumped by 10 guys well... that was foolish of you for running around without your own gang.  

This isn't a good example at all regarding the problem of revenge fleets.

Your example is the equivalent of getting tagged by a larger fleet in OW. Everything fair with that. If you get ganked you get ganked. You have you chance to evade if it doesn't work, bad for you. At least you saw it coming.

And please step back from your standpoint that NA is a RvR game only and solo players or small groups are to blame for making that "fault" to sail alone or not with 20 other guys. This wasn't the intention in the beginning of making the game. If the game will become only about who has the most buddies then I am done with it. Just chitchat about the ultimate age of sail experience etc (A bit of exaggeration ).

It is also not a capital waters problem. This can happen anywhere on the map. Lets say I tag someone at Bridgetown (or a group tags another group). We both have a nice intense battle. Maybe one of us wins in a close match. Then it was fair and square. The winner earned it. We both sailed alone and knew the risk. One attacked the other because he saw nobody in the near vicinity. But now after 50 minutes of intense and athmospheric fighting the winner joins back into OW and sees himself surrounded by 20 other ships. They are there because they saw a call for help in nation chat and sailed all the way from Fort Royal and waited here, because they knew the almost exact location where the ship(s) would spawn again. Bravo, wonderfull. The game robbs the one player of his achieved success and leaves him with nothing. The same problem would come into play when we assume that nobody wins the fight and one player managed to escape. He successfully escaped due to his skill and a bit of luck but is now surrounded by 5 other brits, who came from carriacou, 40 min later (a few hours in OW time). Same shit but different victim.

Don't say people are at fault if they sail close to a capital. This can happen and happens anywhere on the map, near every port. Even in the open sea if you are unlucky. It is simply a bad mechanic. Imagine a larger playerbase after release and it will definately happen way more. Your succes will be lost in an instant and you can't really do anything against it. The main problem is simply that you will always spawn where you started the battle as if you dropped your sails for hours after it ended and didn't continue your journey. We don't need a teleport back to outpost/port button. We need a mechanic that changes the spawnlocation in any form. A bit away from the initial battle but not in safety.

The time difference betwenn instance and OW must get taken into account and players who leave a battle should have a chance.

 

And last but not least. A "home defence fleet" would sail there before the trouble happens. I can use your logic too. Why didn't you look out for enemies and prevented the attack? You knew your traders are at risk. If your nation is so good and everybody cares for each other then protect your traders and actively patrol your waters. Right now there is almost no incentive to do so. Maybe we should have the possibility to hail AI ships and they will give informations about near enemy ships they "saw" or "heard from others" similar to the ship report letters we once had. Idk. But camping swords in OW and killing everybody who comes out will leave many frustrated. It already does

Edited June 16, 2017 by Cecil Selous

[Blackjack Morgan]

15 minutes ago, Prater said:

I agree, except for ship knowledge.  I think the more you use a ship, the more you should gain from it, but the bonuses need to be small so it isn't an absolute requirement.

Well that could be fine as well. My personal opinion is that you are absolutely right that the more you sail a ship the more you do gain from it.....but that has always meant in actual player skill gained. I was always better in ships I sailed more often than I would be in one I didn't use much. I just feel like that skill and familiarity should come from true knowledge I gain as a player not through artificial bonuses granted by a time gate.

[Vllad]

4 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Or maybe we just fix revenge ganks?  And if someone wants to be a solo pirate, he can.

Why you want to keep revenge ganks?  Why you think those are good for the game?

 

The reason why revenge fleets are important is OW massed fleets are the only way in NA to exert zones of control.

• You need to control a specified area to maintain trade for ship building. You need to be able to harshly punish those that invade those lanes. Not getting a load of Iron because it just got Pirated could be the difference in not having that extra ship for a PB.
• Grinding contention requires mass fleets and in return requires mass defense, you can stop PB flips without these mechanics
• Invading another factions trade lanes impacts one defense against a nation larger then it. With 1 dura ships those first few mass fleets battles can mean the difference of a successful defense of a port 100k away. i.e., win that first big fight and people just don't just pop back up anymore to defend the region. For a night you can exert control and keep things like war bundles from reaching your ports. 
• Capping that one large ship you caught at sea today may mean it doesn't show up in a Port Battle tomorrow. 
• Kill enough trade in a region and people stop showing up. This reduces the resource materials large nations have over smaller ones
• It is the catch up property of small nations over big ones
• Revenge fleets are predictable and therefore easy to trap, this is important if you want to damage a nation is much bigger ways
• Regional refits without alts requires smuggling in combination of multi mass ship splits to get materials needed for rare items
• It is good for the morale and the building of team unity
• Maybe more importantly then anything else, controlling ports means nothing, controlling the OW sea means you actually can control the area. I don't care of Spain owns the port. If it is French PC's that patrol the area the French control it and any advantage that comes with it. That really is the entire point of RvR. 

I could get into more minor reasons that revenge fleets are important but ultimately without them the RvR in NA would suffer greatly. This is a nation vs nation game which to be successful it must have as much unrestricted OW pvp as can be allowed. Their is no need for nations otherwise. 

[Prater]

10 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

Well that could be fine as well. My personal opinion is that you are absolutely right that the more you sail a ship the more you do gain from it.....but that has always meant in actual player skill gained. I was always better in ships I sailed more often than I would be in one I didn't use much. I just feel like that skill and familiarity should come from true knowledge I gain as a player not through artificial bonuses granted by a time gate.

 

Agreed there.  After I posted that I thought, well, that's not really skill, but magic.  Skill should be player knowledge vs magic knowledge.

This is off topic, but maybe modules need to be rethought.  Modules are changes you make to the ship, that change it to your liking, but impact it in other areas.  Maybe each module should have a clear negative and positive.  Sort of like how Speed Trim increased speed but decreased hp and turning.  This way a completely balanced ship is a ship without modules, and this is a valid ship to use in pvp.  It is the default ship for that type.  If you want something else, say more speed, it will have a negative impact on a different stat.  If you want more hp, it will cost you in something else.  That is true modification right there and hopefully decreases OP setups.  Every modification should have a positive impact on something and a negative impact on something else.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Prater

[Pada]

Admin, your game is favoring the defenders way to much. Every single mechanic you changed is killing the active hunter.

Please reconsider.

[Vllad]

34 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

This isn't a good example at all regarding the problem of revenge fleets.

Your example is the equivalent of getting tagged by a larger fleet in OW. Everything fair with that. If you get ganked you get ganked. You have you chance to evade if it doesn't work, bad for you. At least you saw it coming.

 

It is a perfect example. 

In Shadowbane if me and my buddy are fighting 2 other people and during the fight 4 more enemies happen to come along and starts to engage us as well that is part of every MMO reality. The fact that NA PVP is instanced doesn't mean people suddenly should be immune to such incidents. 

In an RvR game you better roll with your buddies or you will find your face in the dirt more often than not. Like I said before, you joined a nation why not be part of the nation? 

This debate has been going on since UO and EQ1 and they weren't even RvR games. This isn't a game of Cecil vs. Vllad, this is nation vs. nation. If people want to solo then all the more to them but never forget if you have a revenge fleet sitting outside it isn't because they ruined your 1v1 battle. It is because you attacked the entire team when you decided to attack a member of that nation. 

Like it or not this is a world of gang warfare not individual duels. 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Vllad

[Blackjack Morgan]

3 minutes ago, Vllad said:

It is a perfect example. 

In Shadowbane if me and my buddy are fighting 2 other people and during the fight 4 more enemies happen to come along and starts to engage us as well that is part of every MMO reality. The fact that NA PVP is instanced doesn't mean people suddenly should be immune to such incidents. 

In an RvR game you better roll with your buddies or you will find your face in the dirt more often than not. Like I said before, you joined a nation why not be part of the nation? 

This debate has been going on since UO and EQ1 and they weren't even RvR games. This isn't a game of Cecil vs. Vllad, this is nation vs. nation. If people want to solo then all the more to them but never forget if you have a revenge fleet sitting outside it isn't because they ruined your 1v1 battle. It is because you attacked the entire team when you decided to attack a member of that nation. 

Like it or not this is a world of gang warfare not individual duels. 

 

I don't know what shadowbane is but my guess is it does not have two completely different timescales existing at once? In other words, as many have pointed out, the OW time compression is completely different than what we have inside the battle instance. If OW did not have time compression than the scenario you describe would be fine. It is no different than saying you are 12 hour sailing distance away when a fight begins....if it actually took you 12 hours to sail there than sure I would have no problem with you joining that fight. But that simply is not the case. So, how in the world does anyone find it even remotely realistic that a fight that might take 30-60 minutes should grant people who otherwise could be multiple days away an ability to join that fight or even camp outside of it? That is the part that I struggle to understand. Everyone wants "realism" but this scenario is pure fantasy....it's like literally having a warp drive you can use to bend the space time continuum. In that regard it can't be justified. 

[Cecil Selous]

@VlladSorry, but you just don't get it.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Cecil Selous

[Cmdr RideZ]

13 minutes ago, Vllad said:

The reason why revenge fleets are important is OW massed fleets are the only way in NA to exert zones of control.

• You need to control a specified area to maintain trade for ship building. You need to be able to harshly punish those that invade those lanes. Not getting a load of Iron because it just got Pirated could be the difference in not having that extra ship for a PB.
• Grinding contention requires mass fleets and in return requires mass defense, you can stop PB flips without these mechanics
• Invading another factions trade lanes impacts one defense against a nation larger then it. With 1 dura ships those first few mass fleets battles can mean the difference of a successful defense of a port 100k away. i.e., win that first big fight and people just don't just pop back up anymore to defend the region. For a night you can exert control and keep things like war bundles from reaching your ports. 
• Capping that one large ship you caught at sea today may mean it doesn't show up in a Port Battle tomorrow. 
• Kill enough trade in a region and people stop showing up. This reduces the resource materials large nations have over smaller ones
• It is the catch up property of small nations over big ones
• Revenge fleets are predictable and therefore easy to trap, this is important if you want to damage a nation is much bigger ways
• Regional refits without alts requires smuggling in combination of multi mass ship splits to get materials needed for rare items
• It is good for the morale and the building of team unity
• Maybe more importantly then anything else, controlling ports means nothing, controlling the OW sea means you actually can control the area. I don't care of Spain owns the port. If it is French PC's that patrol the area the French control it and any advantage that comes with it. That really is the entire point of RvR. 

I could get into more minor reasons that revenge fleets are important but ultimately without them the RvR in NA would suffer greatly. This is a nation vs nation game which to be successful it must have as much unrestricted OW pvp as can be allowed. Their is no need for nations otherwise. 

I like that you actually have a list of reasons, and logically explained.

What if I would add something like this...

Someone attacks your trader friend, you sail there and wait.  Your friend knows you are there and surrenders.  He informs you that the evil pirate just left the battle instance.  Server checks that there are enemies nearby, ready to revenge gank.  Then server moves him a bit, and spawns back to OW.  He has a short invisibility to look around to understand that he is in a shitty situation.  Now you guys are watching around, looking where he spawns and pursue.  This offset teleportation will give him a head start, but he also has your friends trader so he is slowed down.

If your revenge gank fleet is made of fat ass Bellonas with extra breaks, you wont catch her.  So you have speed rigged ships for these situations.  This kind of chase can take hours in Naval Action.  Maybe the pirate has friends and eventually you all end up to have some really nice OW PvP, and it all started from your friends Traders Brig.

What do you think?

[Vernon Merrill]

36 minutes ago, Pada said:

Admin, your game is favoring the defenders way to much. Every single mechanic you changed is killing the active hunter.

Please reconsider.

You mean getting tagged 5 times in a row by this...  while the "other half" waited outside and set up an ever-wider picket isn't great game-play?!?!!?   *sarcasm*

Soooo, while I had time to play for about 1.5 hours before I was supposed to take my wife to dinner, INSTEAD what happened was that I spent 3.5 hours constantly getting tagged and escaping before I ran out of rig repairs...  Not only is my wife pissed, but I just lost the ship I just spent 3 days crafting.  

Please tell me why you think this is better "game"-play than being able to log out after successfully escaping a battle....

Its one thing to have  "home -defense" fleets and its quite another to have sanctioned "griefing"...  

However much I enjoy your game, my motivation to log on again is probably nil for the next few days...

 

*EDIT*  I'm back to my stated position that the best strategy is to watch more Netflix until the "Other person " is more bored than you are and comes to YOUR area seeking PvP...  because then you can just gank them...

Punishing those who actually seek out PvP and populate the OW sucks.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Vernon Merrill

[Vllad]

3 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

 

What do you think?

Sounds great. I have my share of waiting for the dreaded Pirates killing my mates, chased them and ended up getting wasted. 

[Neptune]

A List of pros and cons for revenge fleets. How about someone makes a list of pros, feel free to add to cons.

Revenge Fleet Cons

1. Unrealistic
2. Teleport from the otherside of the map
3. Sail to your battle location without being seen
4. Camp your battle location without being seen
5. Surround your whole location without being seen
6. Can keep you tied up for hours without having any real way to log off the game
7. Abuse speed by retagging so heavy ships are faster than light ones
8. Makes you escape more than 1 time, could be 5+ times
9. Punish players for PvP

Revenge Fleet Pros

1. Gives defender easy revenge
2. Do not need to worry about finding the enemy
3. Open world speed time compression gives you an advantage
4. Open world being a seperate instance gives you an advantage of invisibility so you can surround enemy without being seen and coordinate an attack
5. You can make your ships faster by retagging so slower ones can catch up to enemy speed ships

Please tell me how defenders don't have everything handed to them on a silver platter?

Will most likely add to this.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Neptune
Added to cons

[Thonys]

6 hours ago, monk33y said:

Instead of asking for more resources get out there and start conquering them! 

The who has what, is now more important than who has the most...!

gold does not grow on trees at the cost of a harbor

http://www.goldengoliath.com/san-timoteo/

there is the gold .......not at a fancy port in the Spanish aria(guess who owns that area now [San Timoteo])

here is the gold aria  (goldmines) and not at a port......also they collect it by robbing the old natives people

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Thonys

[Vllad]

11 minutes ago, Blackjack Morgan said:

That is the part that I struggle to understand. Everyone wants "realism" but this scenario is pure fantasy....it's like literally having a warp drive you can use to bend the space time continuum. In that regard it can't be justified. 

Everyone is just going to have to suspend their belief in reality. 

The alternative is everyone sails around in real time. Instead of 3 to 4 hours to sail from Fort Royal to New Orleans, it would take 4 days. You simply can't design anything other than a sim that gives you instants merged with OW constructs without some fantasy being built in.

This is like Game of Thrones fans bitching about how Varys got from Meereen to Dorn and back again in a single episode. Who cares! For the sake of keeping the show to an hour just accept that he did. 

[Kaos]

12 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

You mean getting tagged 5 times in a row by this...  while the "other half" waited outside and set up an ever-wider picket isn't great game-play?!?!!?   *sarcasm*

Soooo, while I had time to play for about 1.5 hours before I was supposed to take my wife to dinner, INSTEAD what happened was that I spent 3.5 hours constantly getting tagged and escaping before I ran out of rig repairs...  Not only is my wife pissed, but I just lost the ship I just spent 3 days crafting.  

Please tell me why you think this is better "game"-play than being able to log out after successfully escaping a battle....

it's 'hardcore' now

But on a serious note - never let this or any game stall your rl events, just alt+f4 (uninstall) is enough of a cure for a retarded mechanic.

[surfimp]

3 hours ago, admin said:

 I want all battles to be open for 1 hour so they can deteriorate into a huge exciting mess by the end with lots of back and fort. It took a lot of time to reform this position - but for me it is still a huge compromise.

I agree, and actually, this would solve the problem of revenge fleets altogether... the fleet could just join the battle instance. That would be hugely better than having them camp outside, so long as the issues pointed up around how they spawn into battle vis-a-vis OW position and whatnot can be resolved.

[elite92]

reduce the map 10x and make all the game instance? (solve ALL the problems)