Restrictions for 1st, 2nd & 3rd Rates

[Lannes]

My suggestion for restricting Ships-of-the-Line that is quite uncomplicated and does not need the imposition of many complex and convoluted changes, which make life hard for players and reduce the playability of the game, and is like trying to fit round pegs in square holes. Now, we have to sail to remote places wasting good playing time, looking for rare materials and using up time crafting complicated blue prints. Many players, including myself, are fed up.

No complicated and destructive patches needed.

For ranks, I am going to use the British nomenclature.

1) 3rd Rate: requirement is Commodore rank, 800 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. Only one per player.

2) 2nd Rate: Rear Admiral, 900 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. Only one per player.

3) 1st Rate: Vice Admiral, 1,000 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. One per player.

4) Super 1st Rate: Admiral, 1,100 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. One per player.

This is simple and should be simple to implement.

I have seen 1st Lieutenants trying to sail the gift Bucentaure! It is ridiculous. My preference is that a ship level be tied to a rank.

[Mrdoomed]

My suggestion for restricting Ships-of-the-Line that is quite uncomplicated and does not need the imposition of many complex and convoluted changes, which make life hard for players and reduce the playability of the game, and is like trying to fit round pegs in square holes. Now, we have to sail to remote places wasting good playing time, looking for rare materials and using up time crafting complicated blue prints. Many players, including myself, are fed up.

No complicated and destructive patches needed.

For ranks, I am going to use the British nomenclature.

1) 3rd Rate: requirement is Commodore rank, 800 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. Only one per player.

2) 2nd Rate: Rear Admiral, 900 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. Only one per player.

3) 1st Rate: Vice Admiral, 1,000 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. One per player.

4) Super 1st Rate: Admiral, 1,100 men. No lesser ranks allowed to sail it. One per player.

This is simple and should be simple to implement.

I have seen 1st Lieutenants trying to sail the gift Bucentaure! It is ridiculous. My preference is that a ship level be tied to a rank.

Anything to lower sol volume. I like your idea on limits bound to rank but what about allowing 3 3rd rate 2 2nd and 1 st rate?

Everyone is always so concerned about pirates and thier historical accuracy but have no problems witb 20000 1st rates in the carrabean.

[Lannes]

Anything to lower sol volume. I like your idea on limits bound to rank but what about allowing 3 3rd rate 2 2nd and 1 st rate?

Everyone is always so concerned about pirates and thier historical accuracy but have no problems witb 20000 1st rates in the carrabean.

I don't know why people worry about pirates having the whole range of vessels. A pirate is first of all a wargamer who wants to get the full benefits of the game like everyone else. I think pirates should have all the ships available.

[Mrdoomed]

I don't know why people worry about pirates having the whole range of vessels. A pirate is first of all a wargamer who wants to get the full benefits of the game like everyone else. I think pirates should have all the ships available.

I would agree with you again but i dont want you to call me a control freak

[Sir Texas Sir]

I don't know why people worry about pirates having the whole range of vessels. A pirate is first of all a wargamer who wants to get the full benefits of the game like everyone else. I think pirates should have all the ships available.

They can have what ever ship they want, if they capture it.  So even if you take it away from being crafted they can still get those ships by simply capturing there own.   So no content is taken from them.  Though until there is any Pirate Mechanics changes they are a changes and they should be allowed to be crafted.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1st rates could be as rare as Titans in EVE.

 

Not really that simple subject, but I like the idea.

[Guest]

Wouldn't this just lead to players stockpiling resources (instead of ships) so that they can immediately craft replacements once a ship is lost? Doesn't seem all that different from the current state.

[admin]

1st rates could be as rare as Titans in EVE.

 

Not really that simple subject, but I like the idea.

 

 

We don't know the answer.

 

there are two categories of buyers 

1) eve/or harder full loot pvp because its a pvp game.

2) because ships - i want to try all vessels and move on. 

[JollyRoger1516]

We don't know the answer.

 

there are two categories of buyers 

1) eve/or harder full loot pvp because its a pvp game.

2) because ships - i want to try all vessels and move on. 

There are also and I'd like to point out that this in my clan at least forms nearly a third of the clan those that thoroughly enjoy first rates or ships of the line in general. We do enjoy sailing a surprise once or twice a week but not more. If you force us to sit on 5th rates for the entire week to get one day of SOL action out of the game during which we will to an immense amount become everybody's prime target (I ahve already seen captains trying to pass 20 Brits just to get my Victory in battle (being bait for mupepts is only fun on occasion not as a regular occurence)) I am afraid most will simply leave. We are not here to grind out the fun.I fail to see why you would abandon us and work heavily towards pushing us out of the game. SOLs might be an unrealistic sight in their numbers but this game isn't exactly fully realistic and realism should only be implemented as long as it is still fun.

[Vaan De Vries]

We don't know the answer.

 

there are two categories of buyers 

1) eve/or harder full loot pvp because its a pvp game.

2) because ships - i want to try all vessels and move on. 

The second category will leave game anyway. The first category will stay.

 

SOL restriction can be removed for PVE server, for example.

 

 

There are also and I'd like to point out that this in my clan at least forms nearly a third of the clan those that thoroughly enjoy first rates or ships of the line in general. We do enjoy sailing a surprise once or twice a week but not more. If you force us to sit on 5th rates for the entire week to get one day of SOL action out of the game during which we will to an immense amount become everybody's prime target (I ahve already seen captains trying to pass 20 Brits just to get my Victory in battle (being bait for mupepts is only fun on occasion not as a regular occurence)) I am afraid most will simply leave. We are not here to grind out the fun.I fail to see why you would abandon us and work heavily towards pushing us out of the game. SOLs might be an unrealistic sight in their numbers but this game isn't exactly fully realistic and realism should only be implemented as long as it is still fun.

 

Again, you will leave if it would require at least some efforts to build and man 1st rate. Actually with current crafting I think after wipe SOLs count will normalize. Currently everybody has stacked 1st rates from pre-patch times.

 

But for me and many others game immersion means a lot. And seeing 10000 SOLs sailing around ruins game immersion for us. So many other people can leave because of that.

 

So for devs it's really a question of which part of playerbase will leave :)

 

But again, I think with current system after wipe the number of SOLs will be more realistic. 

[LeBoiteux]

#NoToRare

[Snoopy]

@OP:

How is imposing restrictions not making it harder for players?

[Edward Canaday]

There are also and I'd like to point out that this in my clan at least forms nearly a third of the clan those that thoroughly enjoy first rates or ships of the line in general. We do enjoy sailing a surprise once or twice a week but not more. If you force us to sit on 5th rates for the entire week to get one day of SOL action out of the game during which we will to an immense amount become everybody's prime target (I ahve already seen captains trying to pass 20 Brits just to get my Victory in battle (being bait for mupepts is only fun on occasion not as a regular occurence)) I am afraid most will simply leave. We are not here to grind out the fun.I fail to see why you would abandon us and work heavily towards pushing us out of the game. SOLs might be an unrealistic sight in their numbers but this game isn't exactly fully realistic and realism should only be implemented as long as it is still fun.

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the OP was recommending a limit on capacity of the SOLs, not how often you can sail them.  For my part, I think once everything is normalized (a wipe, and Crew damage), things will level out.  At least for a time.  And while you may enjoy cruising in 1st Rates, there are whole groups of people that get annoyed at it.  Imagine sailing around in a perfectly adequate ship (5th or 4th rate) and being unable to participate in any worthwhile PVP without a group because everyone you see is sailing in these massive tubs.  For every one of you, there are people like me.  If I HAVE to sail an SOL, I'm not going to voluntarily go over a 74.  I sail a 4th rate OW because a 5th is absolutely not enough to compete.  It really is a pleasure to see 50 or so guns blaze away on a 1st Rate, no question about it.  But for me, sailing with skill and outmaneuvering your enemy is the most beautiful aspect of this game.  Simlply outgunning your opponent requires no real skill.

[Alex Connor]

I don't think rank limits are the solution, everyone gets to rear-admiral eventually.

 

Know why real navies didn't build fleets of 1st rates? Because 1st rates are lousy value for money. You could build 2 64s for the price of HMS Victory, and those 64s would beat the hell out of her. Ocean or 2 big Temeraire class 74s? 74s, every time. The limit to building a fleet was ships and crew, not captains, so admiralties picked the most efficient way to build a powerful fleet as possible and reserved only a few 1st rates for admirals where the individual size and strength of the ship could be of benefit allowing that admiral to survive in the thick of action.

 

This doesn't extend to Naval Action. Here, we are limited by number of captains, and have a huge surplus of ships. I own a small fleet. There are plenty of captains who own large fleets. When there are no concerns about efficiently building a fleet, everyone sails the biggest ships possible.

 

No matter how much cheaper you make smaller ships, as long as 1st rates can be comfortably afforded by individual players there is no good reason why people will not take 25 1sts into one port battle.

[admin]

 

Know why real navies didn't build fleets of 1st rates? Because 1st rates are lousy value for money. You could build 2 64s for the price of HMS Victory, and those 64s would beat the hell out of her. Ocean or 2 big Temeraire class 74s? 74s, every time. The limit to building a fleet was ships and crew, not captains, so admiralties picked the most efficient way to build a powerful fleet as possible and reserved only a few 1st rates for admirals where the individual size and strength of the ship could be of benefit allowing that admiral to survive in the thick of action.

 

This doesn't extend to Naval Action. Here, we are limited by number of captains, and have a huge surplus of ships. I own a small fleet. There are plenty of captains who own large fleets. When there are no concerns about efficiently building a fleet, everyone sails the biggest ships possible.

 

 

 

2 third rates can win against a solo 1st rate.. especially if that 1st rate tries to stern tank. 

[CeltiberoCaesar]

2 third rates can win against a solo 1st rate.. especially if that 1st rate tries to stern tank.

A Surprise can win a Santisima in some players hands... What doesnt make any sense...

[Alex Connor]

2 third rates can win against a solo 1st rate.. especially if that 1st rate tries to stern tank. 

 

Yes, but the meta-game of Naval Action is that if we have 2 3rd rates the enemy will have 2 1st rates. If you fill a port battle with 3rd rates, the enemy fills their side with 1st rates.

 

Even on the open sea, let's say you have 6 players, taking 6 1st rates beats taking 6 3rds. 1st rates are cheap enough that taking 6 would mean little, even when one side loses 20+ in a port battle they bounce back in days.

 

That's what I mean, as long as 1st rates are so cheap that losses can be replaced easily there is no good reason to sail anything smaller. 

[Snoopy]

And if you make owning first rates a miserable experience, 25v25 PBs will still have first rates in them (you just added a massive fun tax) .. until you don't see them any longer. Because then the game is empty.

Cruising first rates are more imagined than real, without escort they were instant prizes before this patch, with the current ball rakes it is even easier. Enjoy the free three decker!

I don't get the crusade against SoLs, it makes no sense.

First rates are really only used in PBs or larger fleet actions. This is exactly what they would have been used for in RL.

Reducing their availability means you are literally clamoring for depriving content from players (many players, even solo folks might -one day- like to sail their first rate on the odd Sunday a year)

Every draconic measure to curb their use will hit casual players the hardest. The people who are organized and competitive enough will do anything to keep their edge in PBs - the only thing you will achieve here is sell more alts and/or make grinding out the ships more time consuming.

So from a gaming standpoint enabling every player to (eventually) own all of the ships is the lesser evil.

From a historic standpoint, SoL were not rare, this is why I think the idea of limiting them, especially third rates is silly.

If you got into the Royal Navy in 1800, you had more than a 60% chance of ending up on one.

[Angus McGregor]

I see the intent of the OP... but it doesn't take into account the (perceived) need of top rank players to have ships stashed in far flung outposts to be able to respond to Port Battles without wasting hours of your life sailing a 1st rate to where the action is.

 

Not arguing, just adding what I think is valid counterpoint

[fox2run]

Eat the camel and accept that most players like to own 1st rates. It's a game. 1st rates are not very useful in OW but in port battles mostly. 

 

I really still don't know why the community hate popular stuff so much. If you make a game for a small elite, this game will die. 

 

Did I spend 8 months on leveling up to craft 1st rates and then have to quit owning them? 

 

Forget it! It's a game for G sake. It had to be FUN as well!

Edited November 7, 2016 by fox2run

[admin]

A Surprise can win a Santisima in some players hands... What doesnt make any sense...

 

 

Surprise cannot win against a Santisima if first rate knows what he is doing. Surprise can lose all masts in just one broadside from Santisima.

Here is an example provided as a counter to the same concern on a russian language forum

 

Santisima was attacked by 3 ships (Renommee, Surprise and Ingermanland) and attackers had to escape

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/17177-концептуальное-предложение-касательно-крафта/?p=333689

[CeltiberoCaesar]

Thats why add the "in some players hand" hahahaha

In a couple of shoots from the stern the santi can run out of crew. The stern shoots kill way too many crew. (In trafalgar Santi lost 200 men dead + 100 wounded).

Edited November 7, 2016 by CeltiberoCaesar

[Wesreidau]

Then its a matter of skill, not stuff.

 

Here's a thought; let people enter Small Battles, Large Battles and Ship Duels using any ship for sale in their port as a "Sea Trial" that lets them try out a ship, for free, fully crewed, regardless of rank, with neither risk nor reward. Then we can try a ship before we buy a ship, and a casual player can see what a gold L'Ocean is like before going back to his frigate in the "real world".

 

Then look at the suggestion in my signature, which will limit how many 1st rates are Exceptional, and due to how much more common 2nd and 3rd rate trophies will be, will produce a few more exceptionals of those classes than 1st rates.

 

Then change port battles to accept all comers, rather than create a 25 v 25 match that enforces exceptional-1st-rate-or-nothing play.

 

When a Fine 3rd rate is as welcome in a port battle as an Exceptional 1st rate, we'll see improvements. But right now, the port battle system won't allow 50 second rates versus 25 1st rates. Its always going to be 25 first rates versus 25 first rates, or nothing.

 

People aren't out crafting exceptional Victories because they enjoy sinking the money into it. They do it because port battle mechanics force them to.

[CeltiberoCaesar]

But the captain surrendered before taking 12 stern rakes.

Lol

[Alex Connor]

Here's an idea, cap port battles by BR.

 

25 ships/7500 BR, whichever gets hit first. That way, you can have 12 Victory, 25 Agamemnon or any combination in between.

 

2x 100 gun ships, 12x 74s and 5x 64s vs 5x 100 gun ships, 8x 74s and 3x 64?

 

Sounds like a fair fight to me and every ship is useful, welcome in battle.